Twinky

You only have to look at the credentials and breadth of knowledge of those who translated the "KJV" (=AV). And then the credentials and breadth of knowledge of "fellowship commanders." Yeah. Really well qualified to make snarky, condescending jabs. About as well qualified as a flea telling an elephant it can't tread somewhere.

I will tell you this. I had a job, bought a house (yep, bought it, with mortgage and all). A recession set in, many people were laid off work, including me. (With this mortgage, so potentially a loss of home!) It was a difficult time. And no jobs were out there, despite my strenuous efforts. I eventually set up doing self-employed work. I believed God to supply people for whom I could work, and for enough money to meet my own legitimate needs (food, bills, etc) AND to have enough to be able to give to others. I saw being able to give to others as a need in my life. Reviewing my now-long client list, I find that very many are elderly Christians who would otherwise have no-one to help them. By my working for them, I am helping God supply their need. Isn't that amazing? God knows what I need, and he knows what they need, and he matches us together. Absolutely FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!! What can I say? Managed to pay off the mortgage early, have no financial worries (except when it comes to retirement, and that's a mild concern but not a worry) and I can keep upping what I can give to support others - in my own country and overseas. I am very thankful to God for what is available to me and recognise that other countries cannot or will not so provide, so I support various charities that do provide. Oh, and I support my church as well. I know what good it does in my community.

You know, just thinking about this "needs and wants being parallel" in context of some of the points raised here - fancy cars, red drapes - reminds me how this concept is so very "Western." Greed-based. Spare a thought for what "needs" and "wants" actually are. Especially if one is in serious poverty, no matter what country one is in. I have a friend who's been a missionary in Burundi, where he and his family lived for many years. Most families were and are thrilled if they got one decent meal a day. D'ya think they're "believing for red drapes"? No, these people believe God to supply food that will help them keep their families alive. And perhaps one of the "needs" and "wants" in richer countries is the need to recognise God as one's sufficiency and one's provider, and that he overprovides [financially] so that we have sufficient to give to help those who have less than us - whether it's helping those who've lost jobs, homes, and health in one's home country - or whether it's helping to support impoverished families overseas.

Are you off on some parallel track now, OS?

Sorry you feel the need to leave, T-Bone. Do look in on us from time to time. Your wit and wisdom will be sorely missed. I will PM you.

Same for me. And I also saw some amazing answers to prayer. What I didn't see was people "going through the motions" - but, instead, genuine belief and commitment.

Not surprising that they are "popular" among young people in DRC. That unfortunate country is riven with conflict. Rich in resources, and therefore rich in rivals that want control of the resources. Net result: impoverished populace, horrendous fighting, dreadful attacks on inoffensive people who just want a quiet life. DRC is a nominally Christian country, about 50/50 Protestant and Catholic, with a smattering of other religions. Clearly those denominations haven't brought peace, so why not turn to something that promises answers, powerful prayer, more harmony in the home [country]? https://www.worldvision.org/disaster-relief-news-stories/drc-conflict-facts But make no mistake. TWI is as a grain of sand in terms of percentage of population. Though sand in the machinery of war might not be a bad thing.

Not surprising they wrote it. Many organisations write press releases to send to newspapers and other reporting agencies. And the newspapers just print it verbatim: abridge if they are short of space; or put a big photo in if they have space they need to fill. Of course TWI wrote it, that's why it's called a "press release."

For RoA in previous decades (before I was around) didn't TWI boast 5-figure attendances? 20,000? More? Low attendance at this Pentecost event shows just how pathetic TWI has become. I wonder what Vern really thinks?

In their "international countries" I was struck by how many of the named contacts (Country Coordinators?) have names that do not appear native to the named country. Quite a few of the names appear to be African in origin, or a mix of French-African, suggesting movement from a French colony in Africa to another country. However, I also accept that some of those people could be born in the countries named, from parents who had immigrated there.

Does this thread (or part of it) need to be removed to Soap Opera?

Hello Belle! Long time no see! "Over 900 Way Ambassadors" - could well mean 900 in those African countries - and an exciting TWO in the good ole USA, where doncha know it, the Word is really moving. As Nathan says: Only good thing I can find to say about this article is: they seem to have dropped the phrase "international countries" in favour of "other countries." Maybe they read our humorous comments here at the Cafe?

Just to remind people, this thread is about Charlene's book. It is not about snowstorms, snakes in gardens, lesbian sex, or even, really, about VPW himself. It's about her take on his teaching. Her book. Which, doubtless, Mike and other derailers have not read.

Unbelievable. Not particularly well linked with a minister taking care of his own household. They were dedicated to TWI. Although I could hold something against they - why? Too long ago. All of us Waybrained. I wish them and their family well, wherever they are.

There is great satisfaction and peace about working in a garden. Nice growing flowers and shrubs, great if you can grow some of your own food, even if it's only a few salad leaves. World's oldest profession: "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it" (Gen 2:15). For me, I make my living that way, nowadays. I tend a large number of gardens. For relaxation --- I tend my own garden. Permanent plantings include red-, black-, and white currants, gooseberries, two varieties of rhubarb, two varieties of dwarf apple trees, and several tubs of autumn fruiting raspberries. Annuals include radishes, carrots, salad leaves, spinach, runner beans; and this year, courgettes (zucchini). Sometimes leeks (not this year), parsnips. Onions and potatoes are cheap enough that the small vege plot can do without them. I planted three trees, all a bit close together - no, four: an acer, too, which is now big enough to have a nest in its dense canopy - and a small shrubbery, and have several borders with small flowering shrubs and half a dozen roses (most of the roses are in what was supposed to be a herb garden - herbs still there as companion planting). There are some hanging baskets too. About 15 years ago, I planted a hebe which has long white flowers, prolific, don't know the variety. It's got very much bigger than I expected and really outgrown its space. However, when in flower (most of the summer), it's absolutely full of bees and other insects. Obviously the best bee restaurant in the area. So I haven't the heart to pull it out, just try to cut out selected branches so that it doesn't overtake too much of the garden. Reading this, sounds like a lot, and a lot of work. But it isn't. Even in the belting heat we've had recently, I don't do much, just water occasionally, maybe once a week (containers more often). It's nice to pick my own stuff, but very often slugs, snails, pigeons, and other critters get to it before I do. Other things I like to do are long-distance hiking (multi-day if possible, in wild mountainous or forested places), choral singing, and reading just about anything. I should retire (I could actually be drawing my old age pension) and then I'd have more time for other things that I'd love to do, like learning to play a musical instrument. But if I did that, I may not have the money to go to the places where I like to do the multi-day hikes. What I hate to do: my housework.

Hi, Rusty Duck, welcome to the cafe. Feel free to laugh, cry, scream or hit the walls (don't hit the staff!). It can be a voyage of discovery here. And just when you think you've heard it all, someone drops in a doozy. Have a cup of coffee and a slice of cake on me.

For all TWI's fundy-ness, I know of someone, a colleague, who takes the Bible even more literally. He believes that the Earth was created 4000 years ago, and all the things in it. It all went wrong, so was destroyed; then a new Earth and everything in it was recreated. That's why there are two creation accounts in Genesis and they are not identical. Yes, he really does believe this, or certainly did at one time. He urged me to go to a lecture tour that was promoting this. Even in my fundy post-TWI state, I found this one jaw-dropping. Not sure if he still believes this. I daren't ask. At any rate, he now attends the church that I've been going to for years. And nobody here believes that. But then, we don't discuss that sort of thing at all in this church. It's quite a long way from fundy-ness.

"Militant piety" - LoL!!

This man died nearly 40 years ago. Of what possible relevance to this day and time is his "last teaching"? What can this Biblically illiterate bombast have to say that is relevant to now? [One could ask, was it ever relevant? But that's another issue.] Without doubt, there are real ministers of the church of Jesus Christ that do have something relevant to say to today's generations. It might be more worthwhile (much more worthwhile) to spend time pondering what they have to say.

MIKE: I just came across this in this week's newsletter from the central church in my city. I thought you might find this interesting, to see what you should be looking for if you take up my suggestion to find a good local church community near you. It's written by an Anglican bishop, but the fundamentals apply to ALL churches. This week Bishop Michael held a diocesan gathering in Bridgwater and spoke profoundly of our shared multifaceted ministry. He underlined simply and expansively that we need each other. On one level we might say, surely this is nothing new. But, there is a new emphasis in the Church of England on what it really means to ‘share’ in ministry as God’s people – as lay and ordained leaders, as church family, and as volunteers. So what does this mean for us? Firstly, all of us are called to share in praying for the Abbey and our mission across the city. Secondly, we are all called to encourage each other, to notice each others’ skills and gifts, and to affirm one another in them. Thirdly, we are all called to value everyone whom God brings through our doors. Fourthly, every voice matters. Recently Bishop Michael has been highlighting the priorities of the diocese in this new season, and be encouraged they align very closely with our own: To value and cherish people. To develop new Christian worshipping communities. To share in ministry and leadership. To deepen and grow in faith. At the Abbey we are blessed to have such an abundance of gifts through you. Thank you for all you contribute to the life of the Abbey. And special thanks to those of you whose work and ministry is often hidden, for example: our Holy Dusters, Intercessors, Administrators, and not least the work of our Church Wardens! Last night, our Archdeacon, Adrian Youings formally welcomed and admitted Church Wardens across the Archdeaconry, and it was a joy to share in this service with David and Andrew. We now welcome David Babb as he works alongside Andrew Bragg in this role. ... [photo] Each year Bath and Wells highlights a passage of scripture to ‘dwell with’. This year it is Romans 12.6-16a which speaks of the marks of a Christian. Paul writes: “Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honour. Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers”. In so many ways, these characteristics are so prevalent among us as a church, but are there new ways in which we can deepen even further our expressions of love, honour, prayer, zeal and hospitality? May God’s image in me be restored, and my imagination in God be re-storied. May the gravity of material things be lightened, and the relativity of time slow down. May I know grace to embrace my own finite smallness in the arms of God’s infinite greatness. May God’s Word feed me and His Spirit lead me into the week to come. Amen.

You might want to try a good church near you. You may find more sense of community than you expect (if not, try a different church). You'll find people have in common the love of Christ, honour for God, sharing time and resources, grace, patience, helping one another. You may also find a range of different Christian PoVs, so there can be interesting discussions - but all these will be tempered by respect and love. You probably won't find lots of pretend Greek exposition, but you will find lots of loving action, help, service, and good teaching on relevant subjects for today's challenges in life. You won't find face-meltings, tearing others down in the guise of "tough love," and a constant demand for your money. If you do, walk out Don't condemn it before you give it a good, serious try.

There are some eternal truths that would be true, whether said decades ago, or now. And whether VPW said them, or someone else did. He himself was the one who said that "every generation needs to make the Word its own," ie, learns to apply Biblical principles in their generation and circumstances. Hmmm. Did he mean that (for example) "kindness" changes? However, I don't trust what he said or wrote. Wasn't too sure about some things when first heard in PFAL; definitely am not sure now. Everything he said or wrote needs confirmation from some other source(s), sources that are in no way Way related.

He said that? Jeepers! Won't influence others? What about the continual undermining of one's own integrity? What about building a habit of disrespecting others? You are what you think, and sooner or later what you think will spill over into your actions. He clearly missed the gems such as 1 Sam 16:7 - for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

Deut 27:17: "Cursed be he that removeth his neighbor's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen." Somewhere or other in PFAL VPW goes into this meaning, "the landmark of the mind, one's personal boundaries." Cursed be those who shift one's boundaries. I have so often thought of this, because what happens in TWI is that the more one becomes enmeshed, the more one's boundaries and one's moral compass are shifted. A little bit here, a little nudge there, an unchallenged overstretch elsewhere... It all goes to shifting the boundaries of the mind. Until finally, there are few boundaries, and such as they are depend almost entirely on dictats of the cult leader. The insidious nature of this can be hard to spot at first. It may well be true that some of us had inappropriate boundaries - too strict or too lax - that maybe should have been moved. Our morals might not have been very healthy. But any movement should have been to bring us closer into alignment with the scriptures - not to enable us to do whatever we wanted "in the love of God." NO NO NO a thousand times NO! And that doesn't just mean our sexual boundaries, but boundaries relating to honesty, integrity, not stealing, not lying, not hurting each other ("tough love"). Work time. Family time. Sleep time. Recreational time. Day to day living has boundaries, and if appropriate they need to be respected. What somebody else chooses might not be your choice, but it's theirs to choose. And yours to respect. Tis but short steps between immorality, amorality and becoming completely callous towards others. Brutal, even. Just refresh yourselves on 2 Peter 2, which well describes "false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies" (verse 1) and slashes through the "do as you like" ideas that some false teacher even then were propounding.

Some of you might find this item of interest. Made-up doctrine, in any event. No better than Pharisees commanding the washing of hands, dishes, and other rituals that have no Biblical basis. https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Roman-Catholic-Tradition-of-Eating-Fish-on-Fridays