oldiesman

No argument. It's readily apparent that one must desire to accept all that responsibility presumably for a greater purpose. Here is a catholic prayer to the Holy Ghost: 'oh Holy Ghost, beloved of my soul, I adore thee. Enlighten me, guide me, strengthen me, console me. Tell me what I should do. Give me your orders. I promise to submit myself to all that you desire of me, and accept all that you permit to happen to me. Let me only know thy will.'

Charity, these are profound questions but I will try to answer as succinctly as possible. Disagreements welcome: Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?” "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that: - teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free The gifts themselves are free -- no amount of good works can earn them; but, later must be used, otherwise they basically are forfeited. The fruit from the gifts then would be conditional. Like muscles atrophy if left unused? - is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions Agree; no originals exist that we know of? - is not based on ancient myths and philosophers Ancient myths can be true or false -- guess it depends on one's own belief? - does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell Agree in part. Punishment is part of getting back on the right track; like our earthly parents would do. But eternal torture (the worst level in hell) is hard for me to believe that God would allow this. - consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says. Agree

In the short clip Mr. Hitchens refers to the fear of death. Does he mean 'eternal death'. If so, I would agree, it's there for me. The only comfort I see in eternal death if there's any at all is, it's not eternal fire and brimstone torture. Otherwise I think it's eternally tragic and something to be afraid about.

This carries with it a couple of interesting thoughts at least: (1) The Douay Rheims version says "vomit". This to me conveys the idea that Jesus' reaction to an unconcerned or disinterested churchgoer is one of nausea and disgust. (2) Preterists believe all this already happened, sometime around 70 A.D. and/or shortly thereafter, and the whole bible already has been fulfilled (full preterism); Jesus REALLY meant "I come quickly" he didn't mean 2000+ years later; and talk of "end times" today is BS. "Gathering together" is BS. Preterists also believe the 'millenial kingdom' already happened, but don't ask me how. (Catholics, who have been described as "partial preterists" also think the "rapture" is BS.) Preterism - Wikipedia added for reference purposes

Yes he's funny and very bold. Obviously he threw away the idea a long time ago that he will be meeting the lord when he dies, LOL. BTW Raf, wanted to ask you: is "humanism" the same as "naturalism". Please advise, thx.

Thx Raf. I got to the below comment and it made me smile. Gotta get to work now though! I will read the rest later or tomorrow. "The invisible and the non-existent often look very much alike."

Raf it's two hours long and judging from the first 7 minutes, really can't take her comic act. Can you summarize the most important and impressive points from your point of view?

I hope posts aren't being censored here.. all comments welcome far as I am concerned. Thx.

That explains more, thx Raf.

Got it, thx.

I share this view and believe it was designed to eventually be a base for the one body, i.e., 'the Body of Christ' as we know it.

Charity, if you decide to try any other religion(s) please post about it; would be interested in hearing about your experience.

Respectfully, what is the standard that we may agree on in this thread: the bible is fiction? or the bible happened but some refuse to believe it? or something else?

A point I'd like to add here: our choices don't control everything that happens; i.e. things happen also by providence, or accident; whatever way one choose to look at those two.

True. On the trinity, can't rely on the bible for that as the scriptures vary, so must of necessity be accepted by faith.

As the song goes "We'll understand it, all by-and-by". Faith helps overcome the mysteries.

Yes. I agree with Raf in the sense that it's better to not believe in God at all then believe in a god that is absent and does not care. On the founders, I have a book called "In God We Trust: the Religious Beliefs and Ideals of the Founding Fathers: Cousins, Norman: 9780764709562: Amazon.com: Books" that gives many quotes and illustrates that some "deists" may not be the deists some think.

I was thinking about something else related to the topic. Do our animals have any spiritual perception? Or, using their own intellect think spiritual things are BS?

I would think no, no, no and no. There's nothing spiritual, no God, no Spirit, no inspiration (in-spirit-action). What is it then? One's own intellect only at work? Luck? Random chance? I don't know.

All spirit beings believed to exist by man. God, Jesus, Holy, Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer, Watchers, Angels, Demons etc. etc.

Yes. "God" isn't the only spiritual being that has been purported to exist and spoken about by man so I was thinking it might be good to know (for purposes of this thread only) we agree that no spirits exist?

I've heard stories that some people believe they lived before. Just for clarification that we are all on the same page in this thread: Does not believing in God also necessarily mean not believing in ANY and ALL spiritual beings? Thx.

It appears that Brandon very clearly lost the faith he once had. Am curious what he thinks will happen to him after his death? I didn't get to that part if he said something about that. Thx.

1984.

Yes, that was one of those "good ole days" experiences for me. Took one whole month off from work and was very excited to be one of the participants. The believers at each stop were great, and so was all the food! VPW and Mrs. Wierwille didn't ride the Twig Hopper much at all...he had that glass eye at that time too... and along with VPW motorcoach there also was a full motorcoach for the participants to sleep in each night if they wanted to, to save money on hotel rooms. I still have the daily journal written by Elena Whiteside who also rode with me on a few of those motorcycle legs.