oldiesman

I trow not, Waysider. Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to go back and read my posts on this thread. Somewhere in there you will find documented proof of some trimester demarcations. :) What a great thread this is. Seemed to gain even more steam after I thought it had run its course. Thanks folks. :P

That one doesn't make any sense in actual life experience. It assumes that the fetus can be alive after a miscarriage which is just ridiculous. A fetus that is miscarried usually ends up dead. ( i suppose there may be very occasional exceptions.) The mischief is talking about the mother, if she gets hurt then "an eye for an eye". Otherwise there is only a fine for a dead fetus. The fetus is not thought of as the same value as the mother. This is confirmed in Jewish theology, otherwise they'd ban abortion because if the fetus were life, like the mother, it would be murder and they'd have to ban it.

He certainly dreamt about embryos from Exodus and concluded that the fetus wasn't a human being and shouldn't be given the same value as the mother. Those are the simple facts.

I don't think it has to say it is permitted for it to be permitted. In other words, everything is permitted unless it is prohibited. On the other hand, if it says it is prohibited, it definitely is not permitted. That is the very definition of what the law is. (don't do this, don't do that, etc.)

Abigail, Let me step back from my previous comment for a moment. Where in Jewish law does it state that abortion is prohibited unless the life of the mother is at stake?

I don't know. Doesn't make sense. If a woman were to go to her Rabbi and ask his blessing and support to have an abortion, the Rabbi would say "sorry, nope, you are doing wrong if you get an abortion. God wants you to have the child regardless and be a mother." Is that what the Rabbi would say? Somehow I don't think so.

Eagle, search around the net and you'll find many Rabbi's and Jewish teaching that agree with twi teaching on this point; i.e., until the fetus can live outside the womb, on its own, it is not thought of as a living soul or human being. That's probably why Rabbi's do not ban abortions -- (unless or until the fetus is viable, around third trimester). But that piece by Dave Craley was excellent too; teaching that the fetus is "the potential" to life and not life itself.

VP Wierwille taught me the accurate scriptures about receiving the spirit and getting born again thru the hearing of faith, not the works of the law. Galatians were bewitched because they went back to the law; thought they weren't justified by Christ's sacrifice but had to go back to the law to work for it. This happens today. Some get bewitched into thinking that faith isn't good enough, so they proceed to be justified by all manner of works. The scripture is clear; it concludes that ALL have sinned, none of us are any better than another. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Yes you are. Renew your mind.

You asked whether these other groups were perversions of Christianity and I believe that's false. I think they are part of what makes up the Body of Christ today. Just as twi is part of the Body with their own beliefs and doctrines, so are these.

I'd be interested to know what Dr. Juedes believes the correct interpretation of these verses are:

(1) Then salvation would be of works; and (2) Victor Paul Wierwille was in fellowship with God for more than a passing moment. (one wouldn't know it by some posters' opinions but he did manage to do some good works too, over the years.)

You made my day, ex 10. Love and kisses! You have invigorated me and postage encouragement for the next 10 years. thank you thank you thank you

Right on!

Obviously it is possible. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Maybe some of us would do the same thing, in Wierwille's shoes. Too much power and authority ruins some people. Goes to their head. Solomon was like that too.

What do you mean twi was "supposed" to be a Christian ministry? It is and always was. No matter how hard you try to cast off VP, twi and the offshoots from the body of Christ, you can't do it. God doesn't forsake his kids. In some areas yes, in some no. I can't justify these things, all I can do is believe the scripture when it says "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Victor Paul Wierwille believed that and when he was teaching the word and in fellowship with God, his actions followed accordingly.

He taught that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, our returning Lord and Saviour. For over 40 years! Never wavered from that. He remained faithful to these truths. If Jim Jones believed in Jesus Christ, the bible says he SHALL BE SAVED. Same for Adolph Hitler. Now, they may be scubbing toilets for 20,000 years, but that's beside the point. :)

I have to assume that some of these stories are correct. Even though never personally witnessed by me OR ANY HUMAN I HAVE EVER PERSONALLY SPOKEN WITH, I still have to assume that some of these stories are true. These are powerful, internet cyber characters. What I don't deem as true are Rascal's silly *men of the flesh* theory that VP wasn't born again because of his sins. Absolutely ridiculous! Preposterous! I have never heard of such nonsense except from Sunesis. But Rascal has such spiritual understanding, perhaps I'm missing something.

A man that teaches for over 40 years that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, the Messiah, and he doesn't even really believe it himself. Preposterous!

What do you mean by "good"? I think Dr. Wierwille was a born again Christian.

Actually this happens every day in many venues. Let's be honest. Here's one simple example: Do you drive? Then you are positive about driving and simply can't be bothered about the negatives. When was the last time you heard of someone quitting driving, because of sorrow over all the driving deaths? OK, we'll play it your way. We are, in your own words, the Body of Christ that will be perfected. I think TWI and the offshoots are entitled to the same standing, respect and freedom of choice.

Spiritually, The Body of Christ has no warts or decay. Another one of those biggies learned in PFAL: ". . . As HE is, so are we in this world . . ." (I John 3: 2-3) :)

Outfield, I agree. That was a biggie for me too.