oldiesman

Yeah, that's what happened. As you are well aware, some verses in twi were taken literally while some others were not. I don't disagree that, since we took the verses about believing literally, some other verses that we didn't take literally should have been. Seems fair to me. But we are talking about "believing" in this thread, not love or adultery. What is your take on Matthew 21:22? Should we take Jesus' words literally in that verse?

I totally disagree. In fact, as I recall the teaching by Dr. Wierwille on Hebrews 11, he emphatically lauded and respected these believers as having believed despite going through all these intense tribulations and still not receiving the promise. As opposed to us, who have received the promise, received Christ, and all that goes with it, and still moan and complain and have sacrificed little compared to these other believers.

I don't have a problem with that. However if some Greasespot posters actually applied "love God and your neighbor" it may be a devastating turn of events for the forums. :D

IF memory serves, they had not received the promise because it was not yet available. As far as being sawn asunder by believing, I need a refresher on that as it escapes me at the moment.

I fully understand what you're saying, but it still doesn't explain how twi's belief in , say, Matt 21:22 and other like scriptures was erroneous. After all, the scriptures do communicate that Jesus did say that. Being the biblical research & teaching group that twi always was, is it any surprise that they would literally believe the scriptures? So therefore as I see it, if you conclude that twi was wrong you also must conclude that Jesus was wrong too. Maybe you do, and that'd be logical I suppose.

But the topic of believing is one of those issues where the scripture interprets itself, right where it is written. You don't need the mind of VPW to explain what this means, it is plainly written and easily understandable all by itself: Matt 21-22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Do you believe the above verse and take it literally? If you do, you are likeminded with twi. If you don't, you are not. Perhaps you can explain what the above verse means if it is not to be taken literally.

The problem is, the integrity of the Word, as Dr. Wierwille taught. Does one really believe the written Word? There is no disputing the fact that the written word teaches that results follow those who believe. So go ahead and blame twi and the offshoots and other groups for believing the scriptures. They'll probably thank you for the compliment.

As I see it, this topic is all about scripture and how much one believes it, not necessary twi. Jesus did say results would follow those who believe. So then if results don't follow, maybe one is not believing? Seems logical to me. I think TWI is getting a bad rap here. It is as plain as day that the scriptures teach believing as a concept to receive results.

WOW, that alone would make me think twice about it. AT 50, I'll probably decline to do it. I know glasses can be a hassle sometimes. But I also wear contacts when I ride the motorcycle. Dailies are great... you just dispose of them at the end of the day. When I wear my contacts, I have to wear glasses for closeups. That's the downside.

Who or what poster do you refer to that has claimed that?

It may not be an accident. :o

Paul and Victor Paul hijack true Christianity, 2000 years apart! I think I'll go smoke a nice tasty cigar and mull it over.

Yes. But if one does this, one needs to separate the teachings from his sins. If you enjoy the Book of Proverbs, you know how to do that. Why? If the doctrine is accepted as truth, why should it be negated because of the sins of the communicator? People do sin.

But it isn't a figure of speech, at least with some posters. From what I've observed, some posters do believe that Dr. Wierwille was as evil as Hitler, a raving monster. Sometimes the hate is so strong, I can feel it through my computer screen.

No rush. May I mention that there are decent alternatives available now that were not in the past, like CFF. No rush.

Me too MO. That was one of the biggies in my life too.

Yes I get that. "what it was" for me was a legitimate and exciting alternative to the religion of my youth, which was the most legalistic and miserable religion I could possibly imagine (and did) at that time. "what it could have been" was what it was for me, what I expected and believed it was to me "what it still COULD be" depends on many factors, but I do believe it's possible for twi to have a legitimate comeback if it focuses on the right stuff. The simple basic stuff that was so exciting and such a blessing many years ago. From what I've heard, some participants think its much different now than in LCM days. I can't say one way or the other, as I haven't been there in many years.

Welcome doreen, I still believe most of what was taught in PFAL , yet do acknowledge the actual errors. But those three teachings you mentioned were some real goodies of PFAL. Am thankful for VP teaching them.

I believe VP will have to answer to God for his sins. Just like you and me. Should we dismiss his sins today because love covers a multitude of sins? I certainly don't think we should MAGNIFY his sins, as some posters do. On the other hand, I have no problem with someone sharing their personal experience and letting us know their experience of VP. With that in mind, I believe folks shouldn't have a problem hearing something good about VP either. I do believe PRESSED DOWN and other Christians were motivated by the true love of God in twi. And as scripture says, just look at the fruit. At that point in time, twi wasn't a rotten group. Well, that was my experience anyway.

Oh man. Nah, I believe their hearts were right on on that one. That was a beautiful song. They were simply thankful and showing respect and thankfulness. Simple love. That's the way I see it. Oh btw, I'm truly Glad VP took a stand, too.

I disagree with you in part, I believe we WERE serving God too; but it really depended on the commitment of the individual making the decision. I can't say someone was involved ONLY through Wierwille worship; I can't know their thoughts. I assume (yeah, assume, because I can't know everything) that folks' primary motive was to serve God. I believe we were serving God and man. I can't believe that Pressed Down's dymanic songs and lyrics were inspired only through glassy-eyed cultish Wierwille worship. Dynamic

Of course, comparing a fascist military dictatorship with a Christian ministry makes a great deal of sense.

which implies that the participants didn't freely choose to participate. We were hijacked. We were kidnapped ... from true Christianity into Wierwille's counterfeit. yada yada yada

Well, it was like that for ME anyway. I have to assume that folks hung around so long because they were pleased, as well. Actions speak louder than words.

It certainly was. I truly believe it was the communication of the truth and accuracy of the word, like we never heard it before, and mixed with lots of love, that inspired us to walk in love, joy, peace and excitement and thus, produced fruit like this. Were these guys inspired like this before twi? I trow not. I believe VPW's believing and teaching helped to encourage fruit like this. The distinguishing between what exists today and what existed in the past is appreciated and worth noting. Whatever becomes of twi now and in the future, I believe it was once a terrific place to be.