def59

Song this is a minor de-rail, but I owe you an apology. I got you confused with another poster and was poking fun at you when you were doing your stream of consciousness conversation with Mike on another thread. def

If salvation is not forever, then Jesus wasted his time on the cross, and the resurrection doesn't mean a thing. If we only have victory in the flesh, then we are all doomed. Not a one of us will ever get in the door because we sin all the time. Even the righteous ones fall. It is in our nature. That's why we have grace, to get us through the tough times. Even in the OT it was grace and not works that got people in the door. God looks at the heart. Obedience is vital. God says he desires it more than sacrifice. But He knows we will fall. In that vein, we must not cheapen grace, nor abuse it, but we must not place extra burdens on ourselves or others. Jesus says his yoke his light, why add to it. To teach that more rules and regs are needed negates the cross. Live in the freedom/liberty that Christ has given you. Enjoy the release from the burden of sin. And let's help each other along, and not place stumblingblocks in their path.

If he were straight, would he be eligible to be on "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?"

Wrong! It's Tuesday! but thanks for playing. Our next category: obscure Mikeisms

Of course it could be that the Bible is true. The flood is a common theme among ancient cultures, why can't it be true.

Another Easter out of TWI! At my church, my pastor talked exclusively about Christ and his ressurection. He talked about how Genesis and John were mirrored in each other in talking about the salvation story and Christ's role in creation. Also, do you know which day God did not call good?

The paganism charge is a typical accusation coming from people who believe they have unlocked secrets from the Bible kept for 2,000 years. Check out some Christian history and see what the early believers really believed. But S&G will be judged again. They will get a lighter sentence than anyone who misleads a child. But did not God send his holy fire down from heaven to wipe out the altar erected for Baal? When it is judgment, God uses fire often. Jesus said the fire is reserved for Satan and his angels.But people will go there too and it won't be pleasant. That's why I want others to come to know Jesus now, before they have to face that reality.

all of these posts to find that (ta-da) vpw got it WRONG! talk about anti-climatic.

Now I believe vpw inspired the TBN or prosperity crowd, look at Paul Crouch, Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar or Benny Hinn or Fred Price and you'll see stuff almost ripped from the old orange book itself.

Yeah, back in the day we got a lot of coverage, but that doesn't mean we had wide awareness. If half of the parents were like mine and got involved in anti-cult groups, then we are looking at 200,000 people, add 10 percent for concerned pastors and missionaries and 1 percent for newspeople and we are looking at about 225,000 people who had a passion against us. In a nation of 200 million (70s and 80s) that isn't a lot.

Mike will say the final books and magazines were the true word. Even though the way taught first thought revelation.

Mark Have you read the books referenced by Dr. Fairchild? Hellfire is a difficult subject to understand, but the idea that God could not or would not inflict it upon rebellious sinners is ludicrous. Sodom and Gomorrah, the occupation of the Promised Land are two evidences of God's wrath being shown on humans. Many of these people did not know better, yet they suffered. How much more severely will those who do know and not believe be dealt with.

You could move to vegas.

Another excellent post from HCW, I wonder if we ever met while I was an innie. Hate has no place in the believer's heart and I try not to harbor any. That said, when I left TWI, I knew I would have to chuck all their stuff eventually. About two years after I got married, I did throw everything out. Over time, I learned about regular Christianity. I saw places where vpw and twi were wrong and changed my beliefs. I did let the word speak for itself and saw what it had to say. Part of that growth was to accept the new Bibles and put away my KJV. I don't reject it, instead I look at the modern versions and see the word more clearly. I have learned that Christianity is not a monolith and that twi never was either. Their plunge into legalism is sad, but predictable. It happens to every sect. HCW, maybe at the root, discussions were encouraged, but on the field, we were told to stay in lock step with the MOGFAT. Studies that arrived at different results were rejected and people were told to do it again until you came into agreement with vpw. That lack of true research made us a cult. We were under controls of life, thought and action. We were told to never question our leaders and if we had heard that people were editing or questioning vpw's writings, we would have been horrified. As for the men who have read vpw, I would doubt it, but that's opinion only. In my experience, most people never heard of our ministry and often confuse it with the Living Bible of the 1970s. Despite all our protestations, we were barely a blip on Christendom, and made no impacts. The splinter groups are hardly even noted in cult books or by Christian media. Their infintestimal followings (relatively speaking) are like specks of sand. Working in the media, I would have known if they were making waves. The media loves the cults and sects. Anyway, it is good to have you here and look forward to more insights.

People either live in a libertine fashion, absuing grace, or they promote legalism.

I'll put Chuck Swindoll on his worst day against vpw on his best. Did you read the actual errors thread about pfal, it's an eye opener.

Hey Mark, could we get the Readers Digest version of these posts. Long posts are never read, so your points are lost in the gray.

Jb I reject vpw by his fruit. Look at what his ministry wrought and then judge if his doctrines are worth following.

It could be we DO KNOW WHO the author is. Maybe we have pegged him right, while you have placed on a more lofty perch that he deserves.

Mark It may surprise you, seeing how you don't listen to me, that I actually read your post. I took it for what it was, your experience. No judgment. My attempt at humor, was based on that post where you matter-of-factly said, "well I explained that." As if we have to accept it just because you say it. You may be right, you may not be. but you didn't tell us where you learned this. I really want to know. I don't take things on face value. As for ck, he cannot tolerate disagreements with his beliefs and so resorts to insults and name calling and death threats to get his point across.

JB Josh McDowell is famous for "More than a Carpenter"

Well thank you Def. Unfortunately, that is likely an ignorant statement coming from you because you have likely not read the article stating this position. For the rest of you at least, I will try to post something later on this. As for right now, since I took off all of yesterday to go to a biblical conference I have to work today. This will have to wait. You know Mark, it takes a lot of guts calling someone ignorant when you yourself are ignorant of what I may or many not have read. Just so you know, my remark was intended to be taken as sarcasm. You seem a little put off because no one seemed to accept your post as gospel just because you said so. Where do you get off copping a holier-than-thou attitude with me or anyone else? Instead of looking for obscure and vague reference books, try looking at the mainstream for awhile and see where it gets you.

Now I want to get to 1,500.

Just wanted to get this thread to 200 posts.

HCW You learn quick, now try to snatch the pebble from my hand. :D-->