def59

Mark, You say and quote sources that the concept of hell i(fire and brimstorne) came from pagan sources. I came across this study on hell at www.graceonlinelibrary.org The Biblical Doctrine of Hell Examined by Brian Schwertley Here’s an excerpt. Is this what you are talking about? Tophet This eternal destruction is illustrated in many ways. One of the most terrifying is the designation Tophet or Gehenna. Tophet was a small valley south to southwest of Jerusalem which belonged to the sons of Hinnom. Tophet and Gehenna came to be designations of hell because of the terrible things which occurred there. The wicked, unbelieving Jews of old would come to Tophet to sacrifice their children to the god Molech (Jer. 7:31). [4] At Tophet the idolatrous Jews placed a large, bronze statue of Molech, shaped like a man with outstretched arms and hands. A fire would be built within the statue. When the statue was red hot, the idol-worshipers would place their baby sons and daughters onto the outstretched, red-hot arms and hands. Their little infants would die the most painful, excruciating death imaginable: their skin would be seared off their bodies, their flesh would be roasted; they were burned alive. The screams, cries and screeches of their own children’s agony was unbearable, even to these wicked, debauched parents. Therefore, drums were played to drown out the hideous screams of the tortured infants. Hence Tophet, in the Hebrew, signifies the beating of drums. [5] Therefore Tophet is a perfect symbol of hell where “God takes His rebellious children, casts them into the fire, [and] puts them into the arms of destruction” [6] forever away from Christ and His saving blood. Will there be drums to drown out your screams when you sink into the flames of hell—you who reject Christ and His gospel? Tophet became associated with judgment and slaughter in Judah’s history. The armies of Babylon would come and slay so many people of Judah that there would be too many bodies to bury. Thousands upon thousands of bodies would lie in the open fields to be consumed by birds and animals. Tophet would be filled with the bloated, rotting bodies of rebellious Judah. “‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room. The corpses of this people will be food for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth. And no one will frighten them away’” (Jer. 7:32-33). The historical Tophet and the gruesome events that occurred there are a foretaste of the destruction and torment of hell. God Almighty’s proclamation of damnation against unbelieving, rebellious Judah will echo forth from the lips of Jesus Christ against all those who reject the gospel. “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh” (Isa. 66:24). By the time of the birth of Jesus Christ, Tophet (or Gehenna) had become a garbage dump for Jerusalem. Gehenna was also used to dispose of the dead bodies of criminals. Fires burned continuously to consume the garbage. The garbage and dead bodies were also consumed by worms (maggots). In the same way, hell is the ash heap—the garbage dump—of all human history. Those who believe in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins go to heaven or paradise (Jn. 3:18; 6:35, 40; Lk. 23:43; 24:47). But those who refuse to repent and submit to Jesus Christ become eternal garbage. Without Christ’s cleansing blood, sinners are polluted and unclean before God. Because of your sins, you are like a rotting corpse awaiting the fire of God. Jesus used the imagery of Gehenna to warn you to repent: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire; where ‘Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt” (Mk. 9:43-49).

Oh go on your trip already :)-->

So I guess I have this thread all to myself.

Excellent commentary Mark. Hit it right on the head.

And if I remember right, Nimrod hunted men, not just animals.

Two of the books I have most recently read, are Cat and Dog Theology, by Bob Sjogren and Gerald Robison and "Rumors of Another World" by Philip Yancey. Both are good reads. The former deals with changing the focus of the Christians walk from "What has God done for me?" to "What have I done to bring glory to God? The latter shows how our rational, reductionist world has gaps which point to another world beyond ours.

Mark I know you like or have a preference for 19th century bible commentaries. Here's an entry from Easton's 1897 bible dictionary: Eternal death The miserable fate of the wicked in hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Heb. 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the "everlasting life," the "eternal life" of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express (1) the eternal existence of God (1 Tim. 1:17; Rom. 1:20; 16:26); (2) of Christ (Rev. 1:18); (3) of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 9:14); and (4) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Jude 1:6). Their condition after casting off the mortal body is spoken of in these expressive words: "Fire that shall not be quenched" (Mark 9:45, 46), "fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17), "the worm that never dies," the "bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:1), "the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever and ever" (Rev. 14:10, 11). The idea that the "second death" (Rev. 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring for ever. The supposition that God will ultimately secure the repentance and restoration of all sinners is equally unscriptural. There is not the slightest trace in all the Scriptures of any such restoration. Sufferings of themselves have no tendency to purify the soul from sin or impart spiritual life. The atoning death of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit are the only means of divine appointment for bringing men to repentance. Now in the case of them that perish these means have been rejected, and "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb. 10:26, 27).

I lived in Kalamazoo when those WoWs were there. There was Penny, she moved back to NC. Diega, she was FC, Lenny is still in K-zoo and very much Twi, I remember Randy, he went corps, he was cool.

Ham I know the Martin Erb you speak of. He was a good friend. He was about as tall as I and we hung out at area and limb meetings in 78.

Mark, I am impressed by your passionate defense of your position. Although, I am not moved to come to your side of the discussion, I will admit it has made me more sensitive of the topic and how I have approached it during my life. I would like to recommend a book called "Cat and Dog Theology" by Bob Sjogren (show grin) and Gerald Robison. They are directors of a missionary organization and their premise is that many Christians today live with only half a gospel. You can find more at www.catanddogtheology.org And Mark, this book has changed me in the sense that I was living under the theology that I was "saved from" hell. Now I am learning how I am "saved for" the purpose of bringing God glory in all that I do. I still believe the scriptures point to punishment of some sort for rejecting God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, and I know millions perish without ever hearing the truth. This pains me when I remember the Great Commandment. So what has changed, you might add? Well, instead of fearing hell in my own life, and passing that on to others, I want to focus on what brings God glory and let that be my motivation. If you want to talk about this, I am open.

I would like to recommend a book called "Cat and Dog Theology" by Bob Sjogren (show grin) and Gerald Robison. They are directors of a missionary organization and their premise is that many Christians today live with only half a gospel. You can find more at www.catanddogtheology.org

How do you define objective evidence? Science proposes the theory of evolution then offers any evidence as proof. When a contrary theory is developed, it is shot down as unscientific. Mostly, I grow weary of George Aar's reflexive denials and condemnations of anyone who believes. His basic argument is ridicule and regret, he offers no substantive arguments. I might ask him when he was in church, did he live thinking God was working for him or was he genuinely striving to give God glory?

Maybe you could go on the fem eye for the butch guy?

Mark I have given you scriptures and referred you to experts who have reffered you to more complete studies and yet you do not want to investigate them. So why should I listen to you?

Mark I went back to my concordances and saw where aion means more than just age or world. There are meanings that are relating to eternity. Especially with aionos. So I believe Dr. Fairchild was not wrong is saying that one word has several meanings depending on the context. It sounds like you are forcing scriptures to line up with your belief.

Which is worse, blind acceptance or blind denial?

Mark When people reject an eternal God, why should they expect a temporary or limited punishement? Do you think that it is unfair?

That is an extraordinary quote. As if it were THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH! Last Rites anyone? Well thanks for recognizing the obvious Song. I bet you'll sleep better now.

Mark Acknowledging Jesus as Lord at the end does not have to mean faith. When the Germans surrendered to the Allies, it didn't mean they accepted them as lords, it meant they knew they were defeated. Many war criminals bowed the knee to the allies and were still executed. It will be the same at judgement.

Here's something to ponder BU believes it is not fair to punish eternally for what one does in a finite life. We can examine fairness later, but what should be the punishment for rejecting an Infinite being?

I saw the trailer yesterday when me and the fam went to see Robots (good, not great) The trailer got me interested and wondered why the other two never approached this. It will be dark and like Titanic, we will not be surprised by the end.

Raf How can you pineapple is not a pizza topping? How can you be so ethnically and culturally insensitve? Why in other parts of the world, monkey meat is considered a delicacy on pizzas. I am disgusted … … … … … … … by the monkey meat :D-->

Why is it that when anyone disagrees with you, you play the tradition card. I think Prof. Fairchild has given two good replies. Maybe you are relying on your own understanding and not heeding the spirit's call?

I did a word study on "chosen" and I cam across this passage, which I believe sort of blows out the idea of everyone getting to heaven. The Parable of the Wedding Banquet 1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’ 5“But they paid no attention and went off–one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless. 13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

And what do you call it when someone condemns a great many to eternal torment? Is that the love of God? Is that in harmony with John 3:16 and with other scriptures from both the Old and New Testament? "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." The key word is BELIEVES. What is going to happen to those who do not believe? They will perish. And yes, I do believe that the doctrine of eternal torment has roots in pagan religions of the past. With that kind of belief system I am wondering how one can even look at someone eye ball to eye ball who has not confessed Christ to their religious standard without thinking they are devils incarnate or the scourge of God. If you know then please tell me where such a low opinion of others with differing views comes from? Mark, you are basing much of your argument on a humanistic approach to God. From our perspective it does not seem fair that eternal torment should follow a finite life. But that is what the scriptures teach and I have given you a real live Bible scholar to contact to discuss it with. I look at others the same as I look at myself. The lost are lost until they are saved. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Only through Christ do I amount to anything. Only through Christ does anyone else.