def59

Did you know that Happy Days was a pilot made long before American Grafitti and later was shown on Love American Style as "love and the Happy Days." It only became a show after AG was so popular.

Sorry WW, but I don't control the content.

Well, here is my first reply from Mark Fairchild, Ph.D., professor of Bible and Religion at Huntington College in Indiana, "Words have various meanings in various contexts. This is true for all languages (modern and ancient). E.g. the word "star" can be a reference to a star on a well written paper, or "star" can be a reference to an astronomical body, or "star" can be a reference to a sports figure or a movie "star." In interpreting the Scriptures, one has to find the particular meaning for a given Biblical text. "Aion" can be taken in many ways. 1) a lifetime 2) an age or generation 3) destiny 4) a long space of time 5) forever 6) a designated space of time 7) a supernatural being To apply this to your question, I do not think that the Scriptures are teaching universalism (that people are punished for a designated period of time (#6 above). Rather, I think that the context indicates eternal punishment. What do you think?

Song As with most of your posts, I do not know whether I should be amused or offended or neither. Since we were friends in a previous life, I'll take the high road. God bless you Def

In case your wonder where your vision of Christ stands among the various theories, here's a rundown. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/51h/51h020.html

Raf Normally I would agree, but since you are a yankee fan, I say leave it up. :D-->

Mark -- great point. I've been guity of the same. I was able to take books *recommended* by CES to see a new viewpoint, read them, and then try to make a decision -- but like twi -- I found myself starting to take their word for it, rather than actually checking it out for myself. Dittos guys. I took twi at face value and bought into their line. My beliefs now are ones produced by study, observation and prayer. I don't take anyone's word for it on paper any more.

I don't know why Joshua was given the command to kill everything in the promised land, but he was. And Israel did not do it and they kept paying the price for it for generations. God's ways and understanding are higher than ours, when we see things in the Bible we do not understand, we should by all means study them with all of God-given faculties, but in the end, we may not get all the answers we would like or even how we would like them. Abi, you said: If God is love, wouldn't anything outside of love be sin? Judgment is a sign of love. It means that God cares for his creation enough to send judgment when its inhabitants have strayed too far. The archaelogists have found the level of debauchery, human sacrifice and other sins to be so great that some have said it was with mercy that God sent Israel as an avenging army. Adults, children, animals —even the ground carried the diseases and pestilence of a sin-wracked world. In a sense, Israel was liberating the land from oppression. When cultures have gone too far down the road of sin, there has to be some way of correcting or eliminating the problem.

Can we not all agree that Tom Brady is the QB of the 00's. He is so awesome, obviously enhanced by the clean air and water he partook of while ensconsed on the campus in Ann Arbor Mich. He is my captain!

Again the lesson here is that for the Christian, God wants us to clean all the sin out of our lives. I don't understand the hows and whys God commanded all these people to be slaughtered. Faith is a messy proposition and involves much thought, study and prayer. I do know that Christians are not called to do to unbelievers, what Israel was called to do. But look at the practical side. If God had promised Abraham's descendants this land and other people were living there, what else could they do but forcibly move them? And we can see from Rahab's story, that is was possible for these people to come to terms with God and avoid destruction — A good argument against universalism. And the survivors of these people groups were later used by God to destroy Israel. Funny, how no one decries that action.

My church just completed a Bible in the Stars class that references Martin and Bullinger. Martin's works were the foundation for his belief in a Sept. 11 birth date for Jesus' birth.

Moses was a Hebrew, we know that from scripture. Look at Exodus again and see how his mother was pharoah's daughters' wet nurse. And Paul was raised Hebrew in a Roman town which used Greek as the international language. Much like English is today. The Bible gives us ready reference to what is truth. How else would we know if what the spirits are telling us is real or counterfeit. It's the standard that Mike so often talks about but ignores.

Check out this site. It proves Raf's point about Question 8. http://www.indiana.edu/~wts/pamphlets/plagiarism.shtml

Well, Greek and Hebrew do mean something. They are the languages most of texts we use for scripture come from. So it is important to get to know them. As for your spirit, well that could be anything. We have to use the word to test the spirits.

When I worked at Kinko's we were allowed to make 1 copy of 1 page of any book. More than that and we would be in violation of the copyright laws. People love to copy whole books, that's cheating the author or copyright holder out of profits they rightfully deserve. Copyright laws protect people from those who copy and steal their work. What vpw did with his thefts of stiles' work is inexcusable. But pastors are being busted for using sermons they did not originate, and not giving credit.

Hello all Since I've gotten into this topic I have learned much. I decided to go back to some earlier posts and see if I really understood what some of you were saying. First CK, I owe you an apology. I must have skimmed over the part of your first post that said b-u's did believe the wicked will be judged. That's not what I thought you said, so I am sorry. It seems that how long that judgment will last is the sticking point. All the bibles and scholars I have read say for ever or everalsting which does not suggest an end. There may be one — any is possible with God — but I don't see it yet. I am still waiting for my sources to come back with their findings. Sunesis I agree with you in priniciple that everyone will live eternally, just not in the same place. We know that the place the wicked go is called a place of tormnent, a fiery furnace, a place of blacket darkness. Just who are the wicked? God and Jesus know and they will deal with them. I believe that Christ died for the uttermost, and that he died once for all (mankind). The verse about God wants all men to be saved is interpreted as Jesus by some scholars, if so, the father may have other things in mind. And God does call us to be holy for a reason. There are warnings about taking license with grace and our salvation. There are warnings about taking the mark of the beast and worshiping him. There has to be a reason. Satan will not win, he has already lost. If any go to hell, it is a mark on the believer who did nothing to snatch them from the fire. As for doctrines of the early church, maybe you should check your sources, John was given the revelation about the end times in the first century. Sunesis, you said, "I find it much easier to be loving to people, knowing, whether born again or not, that God loves them and they will be with him someday. Maybe not with the same spiritual bodies we have - maybe in a different way, but, Christ died for them too." Why is that? If you are a follower of Jesus, you have God's love inside you and it should manifest itself to others anyway. It seems to be an excuse to not love someone knowing they are going to be in heaven anyway. Yes, Christ died for everyone, but what does that do make you want to share the good news? Mark S. You made a big deal about Paul's conversion. What does that prove. God chose Paul for a mission and knew what he wanted him to do. God's Omniscience plays a role here. Other killers have been recipients of God's grace through the centuries. Cain — who was not struck down Moses — who led Israel David — who was allowed to be King. All had a heart for God and God used them for His purposes. There is no evidence for the second resurrection salvation. John talks of a Book of Life and Death and those in the former escape the second death, but those in the latter do not. Surrender then may not be good enough. CK Purgatory is not a biblical doctrine. That's what's wrong with it. I agree with every part of your emphasis. There was no need to yell. Salvation is a gift. The giver offers it to all. But not all take it, because it is not shoved down their throats. God wants a relationship with His people, not robots. If that was the case, he could have created us that way. Even the angels were given a choice. CK youy said: "It is also written that God will do EVERYTHING according to the counsel of HIS WILL. If anyone is going to "hell", then it was God's will all along, which is the official belief of Calvinism. Then God lied because he falsely testified that he wills all men to be saved, only to send a majority of them to hell instead. I think the verse says "wants" there's a big difference between will and want. Who says a majority will be condemned? God's promise to Abraham is that his descendants will be as the sand of the sea. Who can count that but God? The Bible is clear that God elects, that He favors some and hates others. Who are you to disagree with Him? CK youy said: "NOBODY has ever rejected Christ by his so-called own free will. Men are nothing but decandent sinners by nature, and without the grace of God he is just plain totally depraved!!!!!" Oh, oh, sounds like Calvinism to me. But Arminians believe much of this too. Ck You said: "We were born in sin!!!!!! We didn't choose to sin, contrary to popular belief. No disagreement here. Ck You said: Now this is God's ballgame and plan. If God wills Adolf Hitler to be saved, then HE WILL BE SAVED!!!!! PERIOD!!!!! Will Hitler have to give account for what he did? ABSOLUTELY!!!! The key is if. Ck you said: "So God wills all men to be saved, but it just isn't going to happen because men's free will rejects salvation you say. What?? Is God powerless, so weak in fact that man's free will is mightier??? Also who is The Soverign? Man or God???? You know I have a problem with some of this free-will nonsense as well. Taken to its extreme it cuts down on God's authority. I believe God is Sovereign. CK you said: "People that oppose universal salvation are just arguing their own interpretation of the bible anyway." Well, Chuck, so are you. CK you said; "Ok, "Chuck, what do you think you are doing?" At least my interpretation puts God in a positive light, all merciful, all loving, and all powerful, and has made it clear that his will is going to be done! The interpretation of others demeans God, and puts man up as a soverign. I guess if I made myself sovereign like most men have done, I too would think God will only save a few." I believe in all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God too. I place Him in control, not man, not Satan. But I don't believe only a few will be saved. I believe many will be. CK You said: And if Hitler is not going to be saved, then what assurance do you have that you will be?? Because you "accepted Jesus"? Jesus himself said that "not everyone who calls me Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he WHO DOES MY FATHER'S WILL" And Hitler did the father's will?' CK: And what IS the father's will? If God wills all men to be saved, then your calling is to preach the GOSPEL (which means GOOD NEWS) all of mankind. Most preachers preach admonishments of fate, and such a fate is beyond reality (burn forever in hell????), not to mention fairness. Who said God was fair? That's man's perspective. God is just and justice and fairness are not synonomous. "Hey, doesn't the world already oppress you???? Why be like the world? The bible says we should not be conformed to this world, be transformed by the renewing of our minds, that we may PROVE what is acceptable to God. Yet most Christians are conformed to this world, and they are too oblivious too see that fact." Agreed, but how does that support your point? "If I tell someone his sins have been forgiven, and that he is saved, and he scoffs at me, what makes you people think he's going to listen to you when you threaten unreal fates like burn forever in hell???" First, why would he scoff at you unless he could not see that he was a sinner? If he rejects your gospel, what hope is there for him. Your gospel has many adherents in non-Christian circles. Circles that hate Christ. But I do agree some people are so damned depraved that this is the only way they can see God's goodness, is to contrast it by the worst thing IMAGINABLE (yes, burn forever in hell is definitely the worst thing IMAGINABLE, but it doesn't make it real however!). But I prefer not to be taught by people who are clearly depraved. Who are you to judge? There is a consequence for unbelief, do you want people you to suffer those consequences? If not, you better pray for their souls. Def, you talk about Jesus knowing his sheep. For one thing, I don't think everyone will inherit The Kingdom of Heaven, which is what you are equating living in paradise with. CK, we could go round and round on the paradise/heaven debate. That is incorrect thinking. You can still live in paradise and not inherit The Kingdom. Where do you get that from? You also probably want to quote verses that talk about people being cast into outer darkness, where's there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. Be it known, that this is a warning TO THE CHURCH, NOT THE WORLD!!!!!! Not true, the wicked will be thrown into the fire. That includes false teachers, but it also includes those who fought against God and the church. The people in question were those who were appointed to carry out a mission of proclaiming the ministry of reconciliation and instead of performing the tasks that they should have, they deviated from it instead. You people who are looking forward to rewards, take heed, you might come up empty handed. But be of good cheer nonetheless, for you will still get to live in paradise. Nice picture, totally unsupportable, but nice nonetheless. Have you talked to Oprah lately?

Mike is a ultra-orthodox pffilite. He should start his own church.

Wierwille was on a quest to secure copyrights for Bullinger's works obstensibly to "protect" them from trinitarians, but really it appears so no one could sue over plagiarism.

Lcm wasn't the only one to believe in the water theory. Doesn't mean he wasn't all wet however.

That doesn't answer the question Mike, what if Armstrong was right and vpw wrong? Maybe we all have wasted our lives with another broken cistern. Mike you and I can be friends for as long as you want. You make such outrageous statements that it is hard to take your seriously. If you want to believe pfal like you do, fine. But many of us have gone elsewhere. It may be a good book, but it is no better than any other book written by a man who claimed inspiration from God. It is after all, a dictation of the film class as were most the collaterals which came from SNS tapes. I can't see the lofty status you give it, especially when its author never placed it there.

So when you say Hell you mean the grave (sheol, hades) and not gehenna, right?

you can accept all spiritual material as good and take everything as equal, but Jesus said he was the only way. The Bible we have today was compiled by church leaders who set high criteria for inclusion. Thomas and Mary's gospels didn't fit the bill, so they were rejected. Gnosticism and marcionism were rejected as well for heretical beliefs, you may disagree, but look into why they were rejected instead of accepting them without analysis.

The lesson for today's Christian is that God wants us to root all sin from our lives. The battle is not flesh and blood and we are never told to kill indiscriminately to "cleanse" an area. Joshua was told to do this deed and he was faithful to a point to do it. We may find it distasteful, but from what some archaeologists have found, the people of Canaan were no angels and death may have been the merciful thing to do.

Maybe you don't know your Bible. God promised the land to Abraham, Jacob left it, but God promised Moses a land flowing with milk and honey. Many of the nations Joshua fought were cousins of Israel, who should have helped, but instead fought with them and were defeated. The land was poisoned by sin and Israel was the tool of judgment God used to cleanse it. Some, like Rahab, saw the handwriting on the wall and came to faith. She and her family was saved and she became part of the earthly Christ line. The signs and wonders given by God to confirm the promise were done in public before thousands. Those who didn't believe were destroyed. But not all, as Israel grew weary of the battle and allowed some of the others to live. They returned later as tools of judgment on Israel.