def59

In 1978 I paid $100 for the class and got pfal, rthst and collaterals. By 79 or 80 it was $200 for the same stuff. Did the costs really double? Then the feds stepped in and twi changed its tune. When I got out. it was $40 for the book and syllabus and the collaterals were extra. At no time did I ever get a way book for free. We were all encouraged to buy the hardcover versions of the paperbacks we had already received. And Mike, why don't you go ahead and publish pfal without permission, and for good measure, claim it as your own and see how far the lawyers from twi chase you.

JT I was reproved once for not taking some girl that I had brought to twig out for Valentine's Day. I was interested in someone else, but my tc said I should take her out because she was close to signing up for pfal.

I have asked some biblical scholars to give me a take on this issue, so I won't be back until I hear from them. God Bless

I don't think you can make a case over property rights on this one. Joshua was reclaiming what was lost, while vpw was taking from someone else. Joshua followed God's command to rid the land of unbelievers. Vpw followed Satan's command to rid his ministry of critically thinking people.

Mike Are you totally ignorant or are you just acting like a complete imbecile? Our court system is based on biblical doctrines. Where? Oh yeah, from one of those old books we in twi could ignore because it "wasn't written to us" Exodus 20 the Ten Commandments. Thou shall not steal, covet, bear false witness. Does any of this ring a bell? Sometimes I am convinced that maybe you are sold out to some sort of demon. Let me ask you this, if you took money for a window washing job that you did not do, (because you believed God had told you to claim you could wash windows better than anyone since glass was invented) but it instead was done by another believer, would that be wrong?

But it's not then now, it's now. So the current rules apply, whether you like or agree with them or not. So if vpw took without permission or attribution, then its stealing. It's the same if you took pfal and republished it under your name without permission. American Christian Press owns the copyright and can sue you for infringment.

Nice long post mark. Interesting thesis. The more I study, the more I see that God has places of judgment, separation and condemnation for those who reject him. And the reason these places exist, is that since he is a just and holy God, sin can have no place in the future kingdom. We can call it the grave (sheol), but we all will go there unless Christ comes back in our lifetime. The Bible talks about Gehenna, the chaff and tares being tossed into the fire. Figures of speech to be sure, but the message is there. And what of the verses referring to Soddom and Gomorrah? Their destruction is an example of eternal destruction. Mark, for your position to be right, that means that translators for thousands of years have part of some vast conspiracy. That the church must have fallen into some form of apostasy for 1900 years and then lo and behold, someone gets a message, and voila! Truth is rediscovered. Sounds like: Mormonism, JW's TWI Worldwide Church of God Moon, Scientology and other groups. I will continue my research. P.S. Words are not always an either/or matter. Figures of speech, context and other factors can give words many meanings. In my Vines, there are 10 meanings for the word fire. Ten. Some of a good nature others of condemnation and judgement. Context. And we can also go around on Jesus and the trinity again. That plays a big role in this too, I'll bet.

But Mike, There's no evidence he remembered it wrong. There was even an article that had a corps grad I believe research that weekend and found the hotel vpw stayed at. At no time did vpw ever say he has his facts wrong.

Well, it's been a long day. So good night all. I see ya on Monday.

I think that would have been clinton's labor secretary.

I just find it strange that the author and finisher of our faith would have to read from any book written by one of us. He is so much more than we are and we are nothing without him. And you don't have to believe in the trinity to agree with that statement.

Mike People laugh at your posts all the time.

No I said if you want me to accept those points, then I cannot listen to you. If you mean something else, then we can continue. Which is it?

The people who worked the closest with vpw say you are wrong, a person who scapped some of his work to get it to fit (HCW - I can relate totally to that) says he cannot support you. How do you expect the rest of us to?

Hello Last night I worked the word aion and this is what I found. I used the Young's Analytical Concordance, Tyndale's Word Study New Testament and Concordnace, The Quest Study NIV Bible, the NIV Topical Study Bible. For some here, they will be happy to hear that the NIV does translate the word aion as age in many places. I decided for fun to go in reverse order for my study. So starting in Revelations, I ask these questions. (Please understand I am asking these in a serious tone, as I want to ascertain your beliefs. If we disagree on a point, can we at least agree to be civil?) Rev 22:5 says we are to reign with Christ for ever and ever — Will we? Rev 20:10 says Satan, the Beast and Antichrist are to be tormented for ever and ever. Will they and if not, what is your scriptural support for this? Please understand that a word can carry different meanings. We must look at the context. And understand that time is irrelevant in heaven, God lives on a higher plane unbound by time or space. Revelations speaks much about judgment. Who does it, why and to whom it is poured out upon. Rev. 19:3 the smoke from the prostitute will rise for ever and ever. Doesn't she will, but the sin must be such that it will take a long time. Rev. 15:7 says God lives for ever and ever. Does he have a limited amount of time? Here's an interesting note in Rev. 14:11, it says anyone who worships the Beast will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy Angels and the Lamb (Jesus). This is the wine of God's "fury" and will be given in full strength. In earlier chapters, Angels give praise to the one who lives for ever and every and swear to him based on that. They praise him for ever and ever, as will the believers. Rev 1:18 says Jesus lives for ever and ever. In Jude 17-23 we are called to persevere and show mercy. We are also told to snatch others from the fire. If there is no fire, what's he talking about? Or, if fire means to purify, why would we want to snatch them? Jude 25 says Jesus was the conduit of praise to God before, now and for ever and ever. 2John:2 says truth will live forever and ever. 1 John 2:17 says the man who does the will of God will live for ever and ever. 2 Peter 2:17 says the blackest darkness is reserved for false teachers (CK, I can hear you now) but if we all get to heaven, why go on and on about the reward for these people. Hebrews 7 talks of how Jesus has become our permament high priest, eternal if you will. The list goes on. There are time aion means age - as in this life until Jesus comes back. But there are others where it does mean eternal, both positive for God and Jesus and negative for the unbeliever.

Mike You can believe what you want, it's a free country, but when you ask that: - I accept PFAL as "god-breathed" and replace my bible with it - I accept VPW and the teacher for our time and reject all others - I accept the idea that Jesus will teach from said PFAL and is learning it right now — that vpw's words are more important to my life than the Lord Jesus Christ's then I cannot accept anything you say.

Rome City was beautiful, no matter why time of the year. In 1978, we had a limb/region meeting there. Ralph D. was our limb leader then. The day was a blast.

My wife and I saw one when we were up north once. (Michigan) the light of this vehicle flew in a way our planes cannot.

But what if we dig deeper and find PFAL lacking. Many have and you still reject them. In fact, you won't even face their challenges. You dodge, distract and attack, but you don't face up to the problems they have brought up. The problems begin with vpw's biography and his extemporary statements made in times and places where you weren't. The 1942 revelation is doubted because there is no record of any snowfall in that area on that date. The Tulsa story is questioned, because again there's no evidence to support the blizzard story either. Some of his "sources" doctrinal beliefs are questioned because of their gnostic or non-Christian bases. Answer the questions Mike or be accused of worshipping a book.

Mike Some of Paul's letters are his opinions. His comments about marriage in 1 Corinthians 7 are his opinion. If PFAL is God's revelation as you say, why did vpw need editors to "clean" it up. Could it be the master teacher was a lousy speller? You want to put to PFAL on a level above the Bible, go right ahead, God gave you a will. But do not expect the rest of us to go along with your charade and not see the naked emeperor.

So God's revelation is only in English? That's sounds racist to me.

Well the gospels of Thomas and Mary were rejected once for being heretical and will have to be again. Those Gospels were not deemed authoritative by the Church fathers for various reasons. There's a great verse in Thomas that says no one should ever want to be a woman. — such liberation! (sarcasm) guess-can you repeat your question plain English.

As for what I believe again. First, I know this is NOT a Christian site, so I know people will disagree with me. Second, I am leery of anyone who speaks of a theology that runs counter to orthodox Christianity. Doesn't mean they are wrong, it is just after the Way, I am not a bandwagon jumper any more. Third, I have taken up this study of eternal, and punishment and judgment and heaven. So far, I haven't found CK and Mark's arguments all that great. Again, doesn't mean they are wrong, per se, just that I am not convinced. Fourth, many people preach hellfire and brimstone. I am not. I tell people about God and what Jesus can do for them. I let them know about the unholy practices that God wants us all to shed. (more on this later.) but I have to go now. God Bless you all.

Well Mark, if Chuck can PT you, he can PT me to apologize. I am not offended, I was in the Way, I got reamed out by the best.