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So you don't believe I'm anointed of the Lord eh? Then suppose you tell me who is, you wiseass. Chuck, If you have all the answers, why do you resort to name-calling? I have never once called you a name or made disparaging remarks about your upbringing. But you have constantly railed against me. And for what purpose? To show how much love you have for the lost or deceived? And when you do, you should follow _ALL_ his advice, for _YOU_ have put _HIM_ on a pedastal. I didn't put myself on any pedastal. All you are doing is trying to justify your vicious hate. B]My vicious hate? Look in the mirror pal![/b] You say you exalt Jesus? Then why haven't you taken His advice? Jesus said to _LOVE YOUR ENEMIES_, and to _DO GOOD TO THOSE WHO DO YOU EVIL_, and to _BLESS THOSE WHO CURSE YOU_ (and that means BLESS and NOT CURSE BACK), that you may be _A CHILD OF GOD_. Yes, Jesus said those things. But he also warns of the reward for rejection. You don't like the word hell? Fine let's say separation from God. And yes, I do love my enemies. I love you. If I didn't, I wouldn't keep coming back. I disagree with many posters on GSC, but that's DOES NOT MEAN that I don't love them. Who are you to judge me anyway. What do you know of Satan? Would God do any different? But you showed us whose child _YOU_ are. Your father is Satan, and the works of Satan you do indeed. I told you the truth and you didn't believe me. I don't seek my own glory, neither do I walk in pride. But _YOU_ do! Look in the mirror dude. What charge do you want to lay on me, you who are so righteous? So far you only have charged me with a Mickey Mouse one of "offering mere opinion". I am convinced that your heart is very calloused, and that there is no amount of reasoning I can lay on you. Only God alone can touch your heart, and evidently at this time He has chosen not to. Jesus also said you will know them by their fruits, and yours is _ROTTEN TO THE CORE!!!!_ You swear, call me names and scream. Who are you, the second coming of LoyBoy? And what do you think _YOU_ are doing? I could easily agree with you, but you would only exalt yourself an rub my nose in it. Ok, consider this if you will: you, Mark, and I, _ALL THREE OF US ARE RIGHT!!!!!!_ How can that be you ask? Go figure it out, you're a smart man. Oh, _I_ should put away _MY_ anger, but God can kindle his own wrath eternally. Who the hell are _YOU_ to tell me to put away anger??? Sounds like the God you serve Def is nothing but a hypocrite, not to meniton a _LIAR!!!!!_ Read Psalm 30:4-6 It says God's wrath is only for a _MOMENT_, but YOU teach God's wrath is _ETERNAL._ Also read Proverbs 15:1-3. It says soft words turn away wrath, but hard words kindle anger. You wonder why my anger is kindled, it's because you are hitting me with hard words on behalf of your dishonest God, who has a never ending wrath in spite of His own promise that His anger is but only for a moment. Hey, like father, like son! I have said nothing but kind words to you and you have chosen to rub my nose in them. Yeah, maybe I don't take Jesus' advice very well, He said "Cast not your pearls before the swine, neither give holy things to dogs! Lest they trample on them and then turn and rend you!" I guess that's my sin, in telling you that your salvation is sure, I cast my pearls before a pig and a gave a holy thing to a dog, namely _YOU!!!!!!!!!_ Wow, what kind of love is this? Paul warns us about people teaching false doctrines, to me that sounds like you. God wiped out Soddom and Gommorah for their sin, Jesus gave us a parable of Lazarus and the rich man. And before you start barking, (Mark, are you really proud of this guy?) some believe that story was real. There is a separation. I am studying your take on aionon, but so far I can't find anyone outside of you that takes it to the extreme. www.carm.org agrees that aionon means age, but says the traslantions are based on the context. So have you folks at tentmaker looked at context? Why not just tell us here in the forum? Do you have something to be ashamed of? I'm sure everyone would love to hear your testimony. I have no reason to dread the Day of His Coming. And I guess you don't either, which is fine. And even if I'm not caught up in the clouds at the rapture, I'm going to take that as an indication that the Lord has called me to stay behind and fight. _AND FIGHT I WILL!!!!!_ What do you expect, to be caught up in the clouds? If so, _YOU COWARD!!!!!_ But it is also written "he who overcomes shall inherit ALL THINGS". So go ahead and fly away!!!!!!!! See if you overcome anything and will inherit anything!!!!!! [Chuck, this will be my last communication with you. I'll post and respond to others, but since you can only call me names, I learned a long time ago not to play with someone like you.

Mike I think my answer speaks for itself. If I disagree (or have a question) with someone be it a parent, elder or you, I go with my accumulated knowledge, bits of wisdom I've picked up along the way and ask God for help. It's the same way I am dealing with CK and Mark S. on the Biblical Universalism thread. And boy, don't get him Chuck mad at you.

Mike you said on January 27, 2005 04:31 "I do not trust in the man, but in the God Who gave him revelations. The written PFAl cannot be judged by looking at the man, only by reading the text. All of this homage to PFAL comes long after the man's death. He gets no rewards from me, nor from any grad who comes back to the work he had a part, only a PART, in producing." PFAL is VPW. they part and parcel one and the same. It is a book of his views, life experiences and opinions. It his understanding of the what the bible says. The same can and should be said about what Charles Stanley writes, Chuck Swindoll writes or Joseph Smith wrote. To say otherwise makes it an idol. Which is what many have been saying here.

Still, The Bible talks a lot about the need to confess Jesus as Lord now. Not in the future. If aionon means what you say, then does not stand to reason that God himself is only for an age? Our blessings are only for an age? tentmaker is the only place that makes these claims. It sounds too much like TWI-speak. "Hidden" knowledge, "mistranslations", "oh-the-Bible-doesn't-really-say-that" kind of talk. Sounds too weird for me.

What's your take on annihilationism? Here's a quote from Hank Henegraff of the Christian Research Institute: You’d expect cultists to annihilate the concept of hell, but today, more and more evangelical Christians are buying into this idea of annihilation as well. Rather than believe that unbelievers are going to suffer forever and ever, they claim a just God would never allow infinite suffering for finite sin. But for this argument to be consistent, we would be forced to say that God shouldn’t extend eternal bliss to finite creatures. See this argument is self-defeating because annihilationism teaches that finite wrongdoers will be zapped into unconscious oblivion for an infinite amount of time. Let me also add this, if there were no hell, the atrocity of sins against the very character of God would be minimized. And in light of crimes committed by Nazi war criminals and things like that, the horror of eternal, conscious punishment may not be so inconceivable after all.

Mark Thank you for the post. At least now I understand where you come from. That's all I was asking. I am not saying I agree with you, but at least I understand. Right now, we will have to agree to disagree, while I study some more. Chuck, If you believe I have rejected God, because I rejected you, you should take yourself off the pedastal. You and Mark automatically assume your right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. But we all see through a glass darkly now. Paul says we are to put away anger, maybe you should follow his advice. If you ever want to hear my testimony, I'll PT it with you sometime. Still, if there is no consequence for unbelief, why should anyone want to accept Christ? I mean what good does it do to try and live a holy life here just so we can live through a couple of special eons? We are saved by grace, but we are expected to live according the Bible's standards for holy living. Jesus said it, Paul said it, Peter said it. James said it. why do it if we get to live forever anyway? That's my next question.

And CK, I would take heed that there are warnings to be alert for his coming, be alert

I use my collected wisdom, knowlege of life and the Bible, my parents, elders in my church and prayer to God.

Well, we are part of a great spiritual war.

Chuck Another point, do you consider that Jesus used figurative speech when he referred to Gehenna. It was a real place, no doubt. Human sacrifice was done there. In Jesus' time it was used as a garbage incinerator. He was using word pictures to show us what eternity without God will be like.

And you walk on thin ice as the flames of hell lap at your heels.

Ok Here's a serious question. When should we translate aionon as "eternal" and when for an "age?" If I understand the tentmaker.org site, aionon only means "age" a limited amount of time. But what about when the word aionon is used in reference to God? Does this mean God is limited? This is a serious question and an attempt on my part to restore some decorum to this thread.

You might do well to read II Peter 1:20-21. It tells you plainly that inspiration cannot be put clearly in human terms. It is only vague. As far as the bible being your rule of faith, you swear by the letter of the word, and NOT by the Spirit of the letter. That is why your devotion to it is idolatrous. You're right up there with the Pharisees and Scribes. With all your bible knowledge, you could be prime choice to do Satan's bidding, since he loves to quote scripture. so could you, so far you offer opinion only as the basis of your faith. My bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.In the past several days I find that the more I answer your questions, the more you want to argue. Just what do you think you will accomplish by arguing with Mark and I? That you are a biblical know-it-all? I ask questions and offer proofs of my beliefs. You are the one who is getting angry and offer only opinion. Perhaps John, chapt. 5 could apply to you, particularly verses 39 and 40. You trust more in your King James Bible more than you do God. I pointed out from your own beloved bible that you are NOT going to inherit the Kingdom of God because you fit one of the criteria for disqualification. What? You expect the inheritance? Then you could be the one that will be "weeping and gnashing his teeth" in the outer darkness, because you missed out on the inhertiance you so desired, and perhaps even _LUSTED_ (yes, I do mean LUSTED!) after. But you take that as a warning to the world, when it is in fact a warning _TO THE CHURCH!_ Therefore you feel since that warning doesn't apply to you, you disregard it and pay no heed. I'm convinced that you are hard headed and proud, and then you come back and falsely accuse me of blasphemy. OK, if I'm guilty of blasphemy, _PROVE IT!!!!!_ I could say the same thing about you. But you are wrong, I hold no allegiance to the KJV. So let's get our facts straight first. As for the John passage, I have come to Christ, he is my lord and saviour, my ETERNAL lord and Saviour. Or do you think that is only for an "age" as well?

I guess my standard is the faith and trust I put in Christ and that he will make good on his promises.

Here's what another scholar says about it. 1. Aion, an age, is translated eternal in Eph 3:11 lit. (purpose) of the ages (marg.) and 1 Tim 1:17, lit. (king) of the ages. 2. Aionios, "describes the duration, either undefined but not endless as in Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2, or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26 and the other 66 places in the NT. The author goes on to show that the word used of persons and things which are in their nature, "endless" examples: God, Rom 16:26; His power, 1 Tim 6:16, His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12; and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb 5:9; as well of his future rule, 2 Peter 1:11; which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life receieved by those who believe in Jesus Christ, John 3:16, concerning what He said, "they shall never perish," 10:28; and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be immortal, 1 Cor 15:33; in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46, Titus 1:2. Aionos is also used of the sin that "hath not forgiveness' Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of the instruments, Matt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be "unquenchable,: Mark 9:43. "The use of ainos here shows that the punishment referred to in 2Thess 1:9 is not temporary, but final, and accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retrubutive."* From the notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp 232-233. Vines Expository dictionary of New Testament words W.E. Vine Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, Mass. So you can say that aion means and age that there is an end, but logically that means that our salvation has an end and God has an end. citing

CK If the Bible is not God's word, then from where do you get your inspiration? How can you call it Biblical Universalism, when the Bible doesn't play a role at all. Still no one answers my question: Was Jesus lying when he said the wicked will go into the eternal lake of fire? And yes, I've looked up Aion, and it does indeed mean eternal. I am not dodging, distracting nor evading any of your questions. But no one wants to seem to answer mine. I started this thread because this doctrine appears false to me. The Bible is my rule of faith. If you think its BS, well, your in great company.

Mike you said: (3) When reasoning, the fundamental assumptions that the reasoner starts out with, the unprovable postulates the reason is based on become crucial. I chose to place as one of my fundamental postulates the written form of PFAL. When I use that postulate, everything lines up to my satisfaction. I have heard this before when it books like Book of Mormon Watchtower Mein Kampf Quran are used. Why is yours any better?

All books are altered over time as language changes. Even your precious (See Smeegal from LOTR) So what are you so uncoyly hinting at?

Do you guys actually read your own sites? I went to www.biblicaluniversalism.com and found out for myself what it said. It has some typical confusing verbiage, but even that site admits that some people — who WILLFULLY reject God, will be LOST. And brothers, that what I have been saying. The Bible teaches that while God wants everyone to be saved and that Jesus died once for all and the gift of salvation is available to all, not everyone is going to receive it. Hence the terms ungodly, wicked and their final destination. If that doesn't spark a flame to do your best to preach the good news than I don't know what will.

But Mark S. What did Jesus mean when he said this: * Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” And what about this verse? * Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. God warns us of the danger of a life separate from him. Are you able to say Jesus was wrong?

Actually Mike this segment sounds to me like a warning not to trust the smiling preacher we held in such high esteem. You seem to trust him blindly, doing the exact opposite of what he warned us about.

But we are to be honest, so no one can make false accusations against us. Telling others about Christ supercedes human law. Telling people you wrote stuff that was actually done by others is lying.

But you don't need the power of nine, Just the One.

And CK Revelation that contradicts His Word is not trustworthy. Satan can appear as an angel of Light, so maybe you should check the book. It's not idolatry to trust the Bible is God's manual for life, but it is blasphemy to call it BS.

But you still haven't answered my basic question. Why does Jesus keep referring to an eternal lake of fire where Satan, the antichrist, the beast, his angels and the ungodly will go to someday? Are all the Bibles wrong? It seems clear to me from Scripture that God is either behind directly or allows many disasters (our perspective) or judgments (his perspective) to occur in the world. Jesus never says Soddom and Gomorrah were going to get off at the end. Why not? I give Satan no glory in my life. My salvation comes only through the blood and redemptive work of Christ. That's what the book says, that's what I believe. There are plenty of places to go to find out why we are responsible for our sins, even though we are born into it by Adam's sin. We reject/ignore/disbelieve God all the time. All of us. It's our nature, it opposes God. But Christ comes to us and when we respond, opens our hearts and begins to change us. Now I don't worry about eternity, because I know that God's work on the cross is that extensive. And his sacrifice on the cross was a great act of love. Instead of wiping us all off the face of the planet, he chose to pay the price for us. No more endless slaughter of animals to cover our sins. No, our God took care of it in one fell swoop. So the price of sin has been paid once for all — I believe that means everybody. Calvinists would confess a limited atonement. I can't say that. Some would argue that predestination means God picks who will be saved anyway. I don't know. Others say free will can thwart God's plans. I don't buy that because God will not lose. Jesus said his sheep know his voice and he will not lose any. But an answer seems obvious here. I guess we disagree in that you believe God's grace extends to sinners who NEVER put their trust in Jesus while they are alive, but get to at some other time. I say we are to share God's truth with everyone because God commands us to. We may not know who will believe, but we are called to tell them. And sometimes that means leading them away from a sinful life. God tells us in Paul's letters that people who participate in certain practices will not be allowed in the Kingdom. In your theology, what does that verse mean? In the Levitical law, certain sins required death. God said this. What say you? And why would anyone want to believe in God now and walk away from their sin, if they were going to end up there anyway? That's the question I want you to answer.