def59

And let's refrain from insulting other posters you @#%* :P-->

Well if Mark says it has to be Gospel

I think Paul is letting people know that certain behaviors are unacceptable for Christians and that need to turn away from such practices.

A lot of Way types really rail against confessing of sins, but John Wesley started his small groups with weekly accountability sessions that people did confess their sins. It helps us walk more upright to have told someone our struggles and failures. It helps become stronger in the Lord as He works on us.

Lindy Your post was one of the best you have had in awhile IMHO. I have not heard atheists and agnostics accused of being morbid pessimists. I think they are blinded to reality and look within or to science for the answers. But that is like looking at a fractured mirror with broken glasses. Because we are created in the image of God, we are capable of doing many wonderful things. But since we have a sin nature, we can turn those achievements into utter evil. People who believe in God are not perfect, and never will be. What they are are pilgrims on a journey who seek others who may want to join them. As for this thread's topic and initial article. It is not the fear of hell that keeps people in line, it the fear of the law. The example that a neighbor who wants to rape his neighbor's wife and family and who does not because of hell, is weak. First, even with the consequence of eternal punishment, people commit heinous crimes all the the time. Second, many people will obey the law and not attack their neighbors and still live an otherwise ungodly life. Third, God loves us enough to be honest with us. He waits for us to find him and then welcomes us into his house. He will dote and nurture us as we grow, forgiving us when we stumble and raise the accountability standard as we mature. But, he also tells us what will happen to those who reject him and spurn his love. He is not Santa Claus. He does drown us in gifts, but he also is able and willing to discipline us. He is the ultimate parent. He is forgiving and restoring like the father in the prodigal son parable, but he has his limits. Yes, we worship him because of our love for him after he has shown his love to us, but we also warn those who would spit in his face, what the reward is for such a life.

Since we all have a dark side, what is the real point of this thread. Absolute power is a corrupting condition. Is this thread really a subterfuge to slam Calvin, his doctrine or his politics. Religious people more often than not make terrible political leaders. Their philosophy may have merit, but the lure of politica rule can make applications go where it was never intended.

Amen HCW

Mike, even vpw said a prophet doesn't have to do any foretelling. He can forthtell as well. But really, a prophet can be a person who boldly speaks for God, calling God's people back to obedience. What or who ARE YOU listening to? And Mike, stop insulting others who disagree with you. I have stopped it with you, why don't you try the high road once.

Hi Dave Nice to see you came back.

Actually Raf, covenant theology connects the old and new testaments so that the promise to Abraham is still in effect. That promise motivates a lot of Christians to the mission field. As others have said, this issue is not new, so VF's claims, like all of the minor sects of unearthing hidden knowledge is really a ruse to make them look special. VPW did it, so it is no real surprise that VF does it. Where do you want the power and praise to go? To God or yourself?

Was anybody uncomfortable with the euthanasia scene?

Evan As always you sum up the point well. Def

How many Christians get killed everyday by secular or theocratic governments, do we mourn them?

When a famous singer or star dies, there always seems to "lost" tracks or manuscripts laying around for someone to publish. Maybe vpw had some stashed away that we could glean hidden truths from. Because if it is not lost, it can't be real.

This is why theocracies are a bad idea. Even ones run by atheists!

Mark, Here's what my source said about this article. "Your universalist friend quotes from a word study resource that is 140 years old. Due to research, scholars today have a better grasp of the meaning of ancient words. The two best resources for word studies are: 1) The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) edited by Kittel (10 volumes), and 2) Colin Brown's Dictionary of New Testament Theology (3 vols.). Both of these resources indicate that "aion" can be understood as a designated period of time AS WELL AS "an indefinite past or future", "for ever" or "to all eternity" (Kittel, X, 198). Brown (III, 829) puts it this way: "A long time, duration of time, where both a specifically limited period of time as well as an unlimited period can be meant." The sense of the word needs to be determined from the context of the passage. I hope this helps. Mark R. Fairchild, Ph.D. Professor of Bible and Religion Huntington College

Let me make this clear Mike, I don't care what vpw claimed about his work. That in itself does not make it god-breathed. He was not our Messiah and did not replace Christ.

Bottom line: God is sovereign. He chooses to form us in the way that suits him. He gives us a purpose: To dilligently seek Him and honor him in all that we do. In the broad sense our will is in rebellion toward God. So there's no choice other than to sin. In the narrow sense, we who trust in Jesus have choices every day whether to honor God or not. God says he loves those he loves and hates those he hates. So where do we fit in?

Interesting how when it comes to religious people doing the war/abuse starting, you make exceptions for them, or give the standard "Well, they weren't really godly people who were doing this" white-wash. Yet when it comes to an atheist doing the same thing, I notice that the response is different. Ie., you portray it as atheism as being causal and part-and-parcel to the abusive activity. Sorry! No can do. Gotta stick with a little bit of honest consistancy here. And a couple of corrections to make: 1) Adolph wasn't an atheist. His belief system was a rather wierd morph of Catholicism and Nordic spiritualism that looks like its been put together using drugs. --> But since he did believe in some sort of spirit world, that rules him out as an atheist, as atheists believe in NO spirit world. 2) Contrary to popular Billy Graham-inspired political dogma that many people goosestep to, atheism is, at most, incidental to Communism. Ie., the reason Communist states persecuted/controlled the churches, like they persecuted any other social structure/group of significant size, was to eliminate any and all competitors to power, NOT with any specific 'atheist intent' to eradicate religion. If that were true, then there would be NO churches left in those specific countries. At all. (Just like the same thing happened in Nazi Germany. And see my aforementioned item regarding Adolph's beliefs.) Plus, if atheism is so related/alike to Communism, please explain to me why a good number of atheists in this country are Ayn Rand Objectivists and/or Libertarians? (Neil Boortz, anyone?) If you know anything about those POVs, one thing you do NOT say about them is that they are Communist. Not to their face, anyway. 3) For whatever loud mouth she undoubtedly had, Madelyn Murray O'Hare killed ... no one. She herself was killed however, and I don't believe it was by an atheist. Hmmm? The difference between atheism and religion isn't how many people each group might have killed or not perse, but on whether or not a god is believed in. And that is as far as it goes, regardless of whatever 'all unbelievers are vile and immoral trash' propaganda you have been spoon fed. Oh, and as to your point on where atheists have learned their morals, and to the strong undercurrent of your argument that, without God, they can learn no morals? Morals can be determined by realizing/learning of such activities that bring no harm to people and/or bring the most benefit to people. You do not need a god to do that. ... No, you don't. Sure it is easy to blame Christians for the crusades, those committing crimes like that are deserving of scorn. What I was trying to point out is that no belief system is without sin. Every philosophy has adherents (or those claiming to be one) who take it to an extreme which allows them to commit atrocities in the name of their philosophy. Atheism isn't pure. There are many people who claim to be ones who are intolerant, hate-filled war mongers. So I tire of people who bring up all of the church's sins as if that mutes the message. The church is not about being perfect, nor offering endless pleasure or a hedonistic lifestyle. It is about a relationship with a living and loving God. I did not say all atheists are immoral or war-mongers. But thanks to the rejection of the sacred, our society values are shaped more by popular opinion than by a code of ethics. We see atheism's effects in STDs, euthanasia, abortion, sex abuse and pornography. We see a culture adrift, because we are told our old mooring were an illusion and there's nothing really to grab onto. Into such a vaccuum, oppression steps in and takes over. As for churches surviving in Communist regimes, maybe there is more to it than your explanation. We in the church know it grows best when persecuted.

Like hell that's different! What the goddamn hell do you think we've been arguing about you idiot? I do in fact measure up to that man's beliefs, and when I do you give me an ungodly hassle over it. Are you too stupid to see that? Or are you just a plain hypocrite? You don't believe Jesus brought salvation to the world, you believe he brought it to believers only. And you don't believe that Jesus died and rose again to defeat sin and Satan. It's clear and manifest in your eternal torment beliefs. I see now that you are mentally unstable. You have not forgiven everyone, for the simple reason is that you don't love everyone. This is why you have excluded a great deal of people from salvation. Also in that prayer he asked God to help him receive his UNCONDITIONAL love, that he may learn to give it to others.. YOU don't believe God's love is unconditional! You have placed too many conditions on it. Maybe you should pray that same prayer yourself. Chuck, why are you so angry? It seems you are so intolerant of any other belief system that it must bring you into a rage. I never intended to hassle you and I wish we could discuss this peacefully. But Chuck, you do not read what I say. I believe Jesus is our savior, the way to the Father. I believe he died for the sins of the whole world, and that salvation is available for all. I also believe that not all will believe and that God will not force it on anyone to believe. He wants us to come to him freely and out of that desire, a love develops. The god you believe in seems to cast spells to get people to believe. I believe God puts clues and signs letting people know he's there. We just have to be diligent to keep looking for him. We have creation, nature and his Word. You have one word and your whole belief rests on one word. That's shaky to me. Besides, who says you are right, or that I am. I have been praying to God for you and all GSers and me that he would give understanding. If you want to hate me, that's your prerogative.

OK, Chuck wants me killed. Does this violate GS rules? Can Pawtucket intervene?

Here, George, you see the standard 'atheists have no morals because they have no god' propaganda song-and-dance. And so many people believe it w/o questioning it, because if they actually thought about it, that line of 'reasoning' would be absurd on its face. And for a lot more reasons than you gave. Especially if they *knew* someone who was moral and caring, ... and an atheist. ;)--> Chuck, Chuck, calm down, man! Def ain't evil or mentally unstable. Just has a different POV, that's all. Repeat the following to yourself. It's ONLY a message board, ... only a message board, ... only a message board. Garth, yes it's only my POV and it's only a message board. But look at history when atheists rule and tell me how much better society becomes. You claim morals, fine and dandy, we should all have morals. But where did we learn them, from nature — where mom eats dad or kids or kids eat each other? Or maybe our cultures remembered some rules for living they got from ancestors who talked with God. Again, it's my POV.

I'll take cult-busters for $100 alex

But you weren't close to him. So how do we trust you? As for the others, you now say those closest to him have merit, so what about the poster who edited his articles, why does he carry no weight with you?