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Lindy without a concept of a supernatural force, we are left to follow nature and that is a world that is too cruel for me. Those concepts you offer are proof to me of a loving God who has taught us how to care for one another. But when leave him out of the picture, then our hearts turn cold and barbaric.

Here's where we are at. My belief system is not without paradoxes. But to the rational mind faith in God and the supernatural are a paradox. I have read that God hides himself, putting on us the job of seeking him. When he does so, evil invariably comes to cloud our vision. So free will is a part, although I am not a true Arminianist. Predestination plays a part, although I am not a true Calivnist. So if there is a choice between God and evil, shouldn't people get to go where there hearts take them? Isn't that fair? Because if God is going to forcibly change people, then why not start now? We love him, because he first loved us. We reach out to others, because we can see what will happen to them if they don't believe. We hold ropes to rescue others, praying no one should feel the flames. But we know some will turn their back on God, deny he even exists and fight against God and his people. We pray for them up to death, after that it is in God's hand. They may not sin any more, but the punishment for their sin is just beginning. Without God and without hope. (the bible does say that)

Good article. I agree, too much legalism has taken the joy out of Chrisitianity. God calls his children saints, not sinners. I love God with all my heart as best as I can do and knowing I can do more as I allow more of Him in my life. But some fear is healthy, because without it, we would all be dead from doing stupid things. But Chuck, did you notice his prayer at the end? He believes Jesus died and was rose again to defeat sin and bring salvation to the world. That's different than what you believe isn't it? So why don't you measure up to this man's beliefs?

Well Chuck First stop swearing, it does no good. :D--> Second, I'm not sure what you believe or where you get your theology. So I am not sure whether to be offended, disgusted or continously perplexed. Third, I know you have a lot of anti-Catholic hatred. So much, I think you need to go to God and have him help you forgive them for whatever wrong they committed against you regardless if they ever say they are sorry or not. It's hard to discuss anything with you because you act like you're running the Inquisition. You cannot tolerate dissent.

You know guys, We all see through a glass darkly now. Then face to face. We all believe we have the answers, but alot of what have is shadows. We chase an elusive God, who hides from us to make us diligently seek him. We hear rumors of another world and try to make sense from our disjointed view. We can go on fighting or seek common ground. We are all in this journey together. And the more I go, the messier it gets. We are in the dawn of a new age: The first society in the history of the world to live without the sacred, according to Phillip Yancey. Living in a culture that denies the supernatural, makes historic cruelty abound. We can reduce life to its most basic structures, yet still fail to see the message that is there and consequences of our actions.

I believe in one spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who brings us to Christ and Christ who brings us the to the Father. The Holy Spirit helps us when we pray, filling in the gaps and sending to Jesus, who intercedes on our behalf before the Father. Understanding this helped free me of waybrain and seeing how the Godhead works.

Interesting dementia was brought up about vpw and his last statments. In my AC I saw his "last" SNS teaching and he looked terrible. If the cancer that was destroying his body had similar effects on his mind, then why should anyone take those final statements to heart?

First Sun, you are the first I have heard to say only the Nephilim will be lost. Second, For then bu's, you make a lot of noise about how the early church believed your way, much in the same way the unitarians carry on. Here are some quotes from pre-400 a.d. church fathers from http://www.new-life.net/hell02.htm What Did Early Christians Believe about Hell and Eternal Punishment? Uninspired records of early Christians written before 400 AD 110 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2). 150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5). 150 AD Second Clement "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (Second Clement , 17:7). 150 AD Justin Martyr "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12). 150 AD Justin Martyr "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21). 150 AD Justin Martyr "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52). 155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3). 160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7). 177 AD Athenagoras "We Christians are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31). 181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14). 189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1). 189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2). 197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3). 197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13). 212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3). 226 AD Minucius Felix "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3). 252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24). 252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10). 307 AD Lactantius "The sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21). 350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19). 452 AD St. Patrick "In everlasting punishment they [the soldiers who murdered my new converts] will become slaves of hell along with him [Coroticus], for truly whosoever commits sin is a slave, and is called a son of the Devil" (Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus 4).

Fair enough Sun, We can agree to disagree.

CK I am not sure now what you believe. You said Jesus and the Son of God were not the same person, now you are saying they are (or at least that is what I am hearing.) I do not believe Mary is the mother of God. She was the vessel chosen to carry the Messiah, so we should respect her, but not revere her. She is not our mediatrix nor has any sway with the Lord. I believe Jesus had a divine and human nature. God was his Father and Mary his mother. He was sinless, so he could be the perfect sacrifice. His shed blood cleanses us from sin. So I believe John 14:6 when he says He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I believe he was speaking the truth when he said in John 17:5 he will regain the glory in heaven he once had. I believe Colossians when it says he created the world. (Original texts had no parentheses) I believe that he visited the earth in times past as the Angel of the Lord. And I believe his words of warning in Matthew about a lake of fire and eternal judgment.

Mike I am married with 2 kids. Stayed at home in the great white North after a 19-hour shift Friday. In-laws came over Sunday.

Gawd, me too. In fact, just about any religious and/or superstitious ceremony gives me the creeps. Always has, since as far back as I can remember. Praying, reading some holy writ, "witnessing" (oh GAWD!), or especially some public demonstration of one's "faith" (baptism or reciting some arcane oath or other), all of it gives me the same feeling I'd get if I'd just swallowed a worm or something. Icky, that's the only way I can describe it. Just plain icky. What is the appeal? Yet you have no problem sharing about your new faith (or anti-faith if you will). Interesting …

I promise not argue anyone's beliefs on this subject. Sun, I reject VP's doctrines. I once embraced JCING, and knew it thouroughly, now I stand opposed. But at least I can talk to Jb, Raf and other unitarians because we have common basis. We may disagree on some points, but we all confess Jesus as Lord.

He don't know me very well, do he? :D-->

Mark and Chuck, I am still researching this, but I'll grant you this, the punishment (lake of fire) may be for a set period of time (although by this point, time is irrelevant as God is providing all the light so the sun and stars and moon will be gone.) but there's nothing that says thosie who are not in the book of life will be sent to paradise afterward. They may face the blackest darkness Peter talks about. It may sound cruel to you, but people have a choice to make NOW: Accept Jesus' gift of eternal life or reject him to one's peril. I prefer to believe Jude when it says we are snatch people from the fire.

Chuck, Once you told me about your belief in Christ, my conversation with has to end. First, you have said the Bible is B.S., then you say you have uncovered a hidden truth, now you say Jesus is not the Son of God. With no common basis for understanding, we will only argue for eternity. (Well, it will seem like it.)

Well Mark Other people would disagree based on the context.

R ??»?ally posted by WordWolf: Mike, page 11, 3/1/05, 2:15am eastern. I thought this was too extra-special a post to let people miss it. A) This is such a fantastic comment that it just HAS to be seen. 'You're unreliable as an authority as to whether a man's writings were directly from God because you were there when they were developed, written, edited and distributed, and were one of the main people directly involved in the process! Since you were there, your ability to speak as an eyewitness is invalidated because you saw it all, and were a direct participant! Instead, only someone who was completely divorced from the processes-several states away- can speak with authority on what happened where you were at but they weren't! Their lack of ability to recount the events, since they were not present for them, is the very reason they are qualified to speak as an eyewitness to what they didn't see!' You tell ME if you get something different from that passage. B) Presenting counterarguments, evidence, and eyewitness testimony that refutes Mike's doctrine is now known as "filibustering". All that pesky data just gets in the way. Apparently, also, Mike still objects to this being a DISCUSSION FORUM rather than a doctrinal platform for Mikean pfal. Also, (Bullinger) Mike suggested he might actually fund his own website or board, rather than leech Paw's bandwidth and threads at the GSC. We'll see. It's with no sense of surprise that Mike is shown considering himself a teacher, one of unique doctrines, as in "The Teacher". This has been expected for years around here, and predicted in various forms. C) Mike's still trying to compliment with one hand and insult with the other. Since HCW already caught him doing it, you think he'd not try it on HCW anymore.... Wolf, great post. I saw pure Mikean disinformation in his post. So eyewitnesses are too close to the situation to be valid. An editors of the mog are to be discounted! This is why gnosticism keeps rearing its ugly head in christendom. People can't handle the truth from the witnesses, instead gravitating to the sources so far removed from the event that guesswork is elevated to orthodoxy. The need to have "secret" knowlegde overrides all else so one can be perceived as enlightened.

Hey, I married one. Like any institution there are some good people in there too.

Mike What you write is so delusional most people don't give it a second glance.

So, Mike, How was your weekend? Did you get out at all? Def

Chuck brught up another interesting topic on the Biblical universalism thread when he said Jesus was a flesh and blood carnal man and that the Son of God was eternal. I am sure others have a thought about this. And most of you know where I stand now. what do you have to say?

I have forgiven my enemies, Chuck, I have forgiven you.

CK I see where your doctrine will get you into the soup you are in. You need to repent of this satanic doctrine you have been infected with. Do not let your anger be your guide.

It's obvious that they are. Jesus was born of Mary. The Son of God always existed since he is God. Jesus died on the cross. The Son of God is immortal just as his father is. You Def are identifying with a carnal man rather than the spiritual man, which is a great part of your problem. Ok, this is different than even the Way ever said. What is your basis for such a belief. And when it the context suggests that Jesus believes God is his father, not Joseph, what does that mean to you? Anyone else believe this?