cinderpelt

I think the analogies are very insightful, although the Rum Runner lost me on that last one.

Normal people just don't behave like that! Good for your hubby! Kinda reminds me of my hubby when I was 7 months pregnant and wrestling with indigestion all day. When it finally broke, I had a fierce craving for a Big Mac. It was 11:30 p.m., but he drove 25 miles round trip for it! For me! ~Cinder

"Well.. for a bag of pecans, it's a deal.." I'll see what I can do. We once harvested the most lovely pecans from the trees on my great-aunt Rita's estate in Gulfport, MS. Unfortunately, Katrina hauled the whole estate a half-mile inland. I may still have some connections. I really need that Ice-maker, though! Pleeeaaassse?

Can't we just get the autographed product for sacrificing our day off and showing up, like good little Squirrel-feeders? It's the least you could do. Maybe someday they'll go for enough on e-bay to replenish those retirement funds that took a back seat to other, more "worthy" expenditures. ~Cinder

Will the first 500 be autographed by our "Squirrel in de verd"?

I remember lying on the front lawn on a warm summer afternoon, reading 1Corinthians 15 and some of Revelation from my family's Catholic Bible, and thinking, "Holy crap! If this stuff is true, I need to make some changes!" I was 17, and my mantra at that time was that I'd still be cool and toking when I was 30. (That was Ancient to me!) Shortly thereafter, my older sister took me to lunch and we had a deep discussion about God and she invited me to Twig. The first Twig I showed up for was actually a session of the Intermediate class, (Oops!) and Mel!nda, the TL who was apprentice 10th, welcomed me warmly. It was a very loving, casual setting, and the things I heard about the Bible being a reliable source of truth really grabbed my heart. That was a very sweet and powerful Twig, and the most life-changing things happened because the people were serious about living the talk. I remember Mel!nda showing me "pharmekeia" in a Young's Concordance. When I got home, I flushed the gram of coke I'd gotten for my Birthday and never did drugs again. I also witnessed to my boyfriend who'd given me said BD present, and he took the class as well. In hindsight, I really wasn't so much impressed by the class, but I was impressed by the people who seriously gave their all to live it, and by the fact that there was a reliable standard for truth. ~Cinder

Quoth Waysider: I never saw this used to deliver and heal people. I saw and heard people SAY it was being used that way but never actually witnessed it in "real time". It seemed like it was used to control people and put them in the passenger seat.(or maybe the "rumble seat") END QUOTE Exactly! And not just to control the accused, but to forcefully steer the recipients of such info. ~Cinder

~See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky, Ham? "There were Giants in those days.." ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Thanks for your insights, A-Spot. I started this thread when I discovered one of those "dust-bunnies" lurking in my heart. I've been out for over 2 decades, and never challenged this particular doctrine! (talk about yer "DUH!!" moment!) I think you're right in the lack of scriptural backing in these "definitions". They really became "Doctrine" for me, and I think that was the intention of vp and others. Especially pertinent to the topic of this thread is that phrase, "and if evil, whether you may cast them out." This, IMO, gave rise to an attitude of "super spiritual, in-the-know" that inflated many, many egoes, and destroyed many, many lives. To my shagrin, I've been on both ends of that field. The passage from Kings, above is an interesting one, especially considering the idea that Kings and Samuel address that time period from man's POV, and Chronicles, from God's. I don't have a Bible with me, but I wonder if this particular situation is addressed in Chr.? The passage from Mark is also interesting. It's before Pentecost, so the general populace didn't have holy spirit, yet there seems to be a general recognition of spiritual activity, not just by the disciples, but by the kid's dad. This shows up elsewhere in the Gospels and the OT, and has always caught my attention. Ah~ So much to chew on, so little time. Thanks, everyone for sharing your insights ~Cinder

Larry~ The link in Sushi's post worked for me. These Days is one of my all time favorite JB tunes! Thanks, guys! ~Cinder

WW said: Just because YOU'VE grown up since arriving doesn't mean everyone has. Doesn't it strike you as mildly ironic that those who haven't, who are "stuck" in their development at whatever point they were in twi, would be the ones quick to accuse those who've matured as having been "stuck"? Actually, it's blatant! Just pointing out what it's meant to me, personally. ~Cinder

There are SO many things that, in hindsight, were wierd, but I, too, gave the benefit of the doubt and wrote them off. Now that I'm able to think critically again, I ask, for instance regarding this STD screening, "What the heck?" ~Cinder

Hi, Mike~ I saw the cartoon, and it seemed to say, in so many "words", ""C'mon back to pfal!", assuming that that WAS the God-breathed Word. The ensuing discussions were an attempt to refute that (faulty, IMO) premise. ~Cinder

Indeed! As a single, I'd rather have slept on a cot, doubled-up in Emporia or Owens Hall than to have married couples sharing rooms. Good grief! But, by then, (11th?) the sacredness of the marriage had already been grossly compromised and undermined. ~Cinder

What's that famous quote? "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men (and women) to do (and say) nothing." My paraphrase. I, for one, have done a LOT of growing up and healing since my first meal at this diner. I'm grateful that other patrons have been willing to put their experiences on the table. It's been a significant part of my growth and I suspect I'm not alone. I think that's the ultimate purpose of the cafe. For what it's worth, I don't get that rascal is relating to her knowledge or experiences of TWI in an unhealthy or "stuck in it" way, though I'm not a psychologist or counsellor, or any such thing. If I did think that, I'd say so, or probably pm her. ~Cinder

Don't know if I can stomach yet another LONG derail of this nature, and doubt it would do much good anyway. ~Cinder

I'm starting to get that. I haven't been around here for very long. Didn't mean to kick a dead horse, but that phrase about "commissioning" just got stuck in my craw and I had to address it. ~Cinder

Quote: (Mike) "So, with the exception of the extraordinary commissioning of 1942,..." Extraordinary commissioning? Park that next to some key timeline points from TWLIL and Mrs. W.'s book, like his thoughts of schlocking the preacher-thing altogether before hijacking certain works that proved very profitable in the long run. Deceptive from the start, When did wierwille actually start twi? Post #1 from skyrider explores this topic. WordWolf, anyone? You could speak more authoratatively on the timeline than I. ~Cinder

Tonto~ I don't remember anything like this either, and I went in-rez early 80's. Twinky~ It sounds to me like the focus wasn't related to the "homo-purge", but more a screening of "viable candidates for free sex without that particular ramification (STD). " Just my opinion.

This is from today's edition of The Chronicle of Philanthropy: By Ben Gose Dana Point, Calif. The Internal Revenue Service may need to take further steps to better help the public identify inefficient and ineffective nonprofit organizations, Steven T. Miller, the commissioner of the agency’s tax-exempt and government-entities division, told a group of foundation officials and donors here on Saturday. “Efficiency and effectiveness have obvious implications when you consider the level of subsidy being provided here,” Mr. Miller said. “Should the public be able to rely on the Internal Revenue Service and the states to be sure when they make a contribution to an organization that the contribution is put to good use and not squandered?” Mr. Miller’s remarks, made during a session on the IRS at the annual meeting of the Philanthropy Roundtable, an association of grant makers, led to sharp rebuttals from other speakers and members of the audience who said the IRS may be overstepping its basic charge of ensuring compliance with the tax code. Marcus S. Owens, a Washington lawyer who is himself a former commissioner of the IRS’s tax-exempt division, urged the IRS to be cautious before stepping into new areas. He said state prosecutors have far greater powers to tackle issues related to governance and effectiveness than does the IRS. “I would urge the IRS, as it begins to contemplate the concepts of efficiency and effectiveness, and of good governance, to keep in mind that some of those words are not found in the Internal Revenue Code,” he said. (End of Quote) While the dishonest handling of donated funds, as cited in previous posts, frosts me, I think that it's not something that should be handled in the arena of IRS regulation. Once the line has been crossed to give a Federal Agency the jurisdiction to affect the governance of an organization, it would be very hard to reverse. Typically, though the jurisdiction may have been granted for a good reason, say, in response to mishandling of funds, the power granted can and probably will escalate into a gross erosion of freedoms. The issue is much bigger than the 6 mega-churches indulging in questionable spending, and has been heating up for a while. It touches the whole community of Philanthropy, which includes hospitals, scientific research, outfits like the Red Cross and the Salvation Army, as well as education, museums, and missions, to name a few. While financial transparency in a charitable organization is desireable and should be effective in keeping it honest, there's probably no sure way to mandate that. Still, the closer to home that it's dealt with, the better, IMO. ~Cinder

I think this is a discussion about how we, as individuals swallowed yet another "catch-phrase" in a very manipulative paradigm, and incorporated it into how we lived and related to others, in our, and their "pain or pleasure". The value of the discussion, IMO, is not whether the phrase ever had/has any virtue or merit, but in pointing out how such a phrase/mandate prompted a shift in thought processes that perhaps rendered a shut-down of conscience. ~Cinder

Quote: "You can have a million keys -- it don't mean spit. If Jesus Christ isn't involved, the eyes of your understanding haven't been enlightened and you're grasping at straws -- it's that simple. " Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Seems it always comes back to KNOWING HIM. Not "keys", not formulae, not having the "inside scoop" on super-spiritual info about someone when one has neither the care (the Shepherd's heart), nor the guts to help. ~Cinder

Actually I was very fortunate to have been under some of the dearest, most honest, heartsy leadership for most of my time in TWI. That's probably why I was so blind-sided by this one. I was very naive and trusting, even to the point where I wrote this off as an isolated person/incident. Ya live, ya learn ~Cinder

I'm thinkin' Romans 12:1 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. I think it's a heart thing, a "go-for-broke" thing, all that I am, from changing the diaper on a grumpy, squirming daughter, to fighting for time in solemn prayer before Him, and everything in between. I think that's encapsulated in the command to "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength". SIT is part of it, but without the heart, it's sounding brass, a tinkling cymbal... ~Cinder

OK~ Here goes: My first experience with face-melting was during my apprentice year for WC. I was part of a co-ed way-home, run by the Interim Corps wow-team leader from my previous wow year, who didn't pull his $ together to go back in-rez. I was 18. Early into the year, he, for some reason, felt obliged to convince me about how screwed-up I was. For MANY months, I don't remember how many, but it seems like 6-8, we had these 1-3 hour sessions of him SCREAMING at me about how and why I might never "get it" and probably wouldn't make it into the WC, much less graduate or really be able to serve God or His people. I'm a VERY sensitive heart, and those "teaching" sessions during those months crushed my soul, day in and day out. I decided against going in the WC, not because I thought I'd turn out like him, but because I'd begun to believe his BS. When the LC asked me why I'd changed my mind, I parrotted the things that had been pounded for the previous several months. He firmly but very gently told me that he didn't agree, and ASKED me to please pray and reconsider. The "meltings" continued for another few weeks, and then one day something changed. During my Apprentice Corps daily evaluation, (which I don't think was an official mandate at that time, early 80's, but for lack of a better term,) the tone changed. He, instead of urgently insulting me (for my own benefit dontcha know), he made some half-a$$ed, non-apology, like, "Ya know, I never realized how much insight you have in working the Word". The reprieve from the constant assault was so welcome, that I didn't even recognize the shift when he began to steer our "Bar-witnessing" toward a more "romantic", endeavor. When I shunned his advances, that opened up a whole new round of "reproof sessions". I was SO screwed-up by my *^@!^> Catholic upbringing, said he, and so wound-tight, that I might never figure out how to really love God or His people or a husband! (I was never raped, but definite lines were crossed). I was glad the year was near its end, and prayed diligently that wherever I was in-rez, he would NOT be. God answered that prayer. I really thought this was an isolated person/situation, though after a short time under the tutelage of D@ve Bed@rd, I had an idea where the "righteous" screaming thing came from. Most of the time in-rez, I flew under the radar, except for one time when a CC was on a homo hunt and I fought for someone in my twig. I never again encountered sexual predation, but got some more clues it existed when I heard some very off-handed comments from some who should've known- and behaved better. I want to thank all of you brave GSers who have shared the dark experiences you endured. Your stories have been monumental in my taking another look at my experiences, and have brought me to many an OMG!!! moment, and helped me to gain a much truer perspective of many of my TWI experiences. Interestingly, I got to this point in my post earlier today, when for NO apparent reason, my computer shut itself off. POOF! ~Cinder