anotherDan

Nice post, Belle, with a nod to the original poster. How 'bout a slice of pie?

I am, too, Dave. It is marvelous, really, that even in a messed-up situation, people can respond with pure hearts and with God's own love. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Not to be "moderate" or to excuse myself from being naive or whatever, but merely as an attempt to make sense of my experience with the way, not to mention my current experience with other churches. Strange how we use "not to mention" just before mentioning something. contradictio absurdum Just the Truth, ma'am. I'm wondering if that's not what is required of us throughout our time in this age... the reason "forbearance" is required. Because there doesn't seem to be any perfect churches out there -- good ones, better ones, but all flawed. So that I am not misunderstood, there is no place in "forbearance" for putting up with sin. But it as I sort out my TWI experience, it does seem that there is gold amid the dross. I loved. I know that, and I was loved. That's the stuff that remains when all else is burned.

About 9 minutes on "No gifts -- No God" I think it's a pretty sound viewpoint T/F/U agree or disagree? Is your POV similar or different?

John, I agree that there are people who consistently post to "bash VP". There are also those who want to "protect" him, ignore his errors, etc. This thread wasn't started by someone who is interested in preserving what was right with VP Wierwille. It was started, at least as I read it, in the interest of presenting "the other side of the story." Other threads are started by those who are of the other persuasion, who believe that God ordained VPW to teach the Word like it had not been known since the 1st century. Granted, there are fewer of those here. Many posters fall somewhere in the middle of the one "side" or the other. There has been bashing and defending on this thread, and there has been a lot of stuff in between. It's a discussion. Take your best shot. Try not to take things personally. (That's not directed at you. General declarative statement.) I'm just trying to be honest. I listen to everyone, at least until I know them pretty well, then I may skip them at times because their posts don't generally help me, or I simply don't want to hear that POV at the moment, kinda like switching from Fox News to Algezera or NPR. People see things differently than I do. Maybe they are stupid or possessed (not words I usually use, and I do not subscribe to the commonly understood definition), and then again, maybe I am. Maybe we're just two different people with differing life experiences. Someone might call this whole site a "bash VP" and "bash TWI" website. Its orientation is to tell the other side of the story, but I think if one pays attention, "the other side of the story" may include some more moderate and reasonable voices.

John, but that's not the point with tongues, is it? Tongues are pneumatikos, "spiritual matters."

Here's Bella's take:

curvaciously mocking squirrels This guy is "fluent." But not by faking the alphabet.

That's quite a mind picture, a lesbian defense attorney... what was I thinking, again?

That condiment does seem to be in fairly abundant supply. Thanks for your post, Dave. I've often thought about that. Why do we as brothers try to "one up" one another? Some are even "bashers" of God; they're bigger than Him. I noticed this in some of the pop books of psychology. I was simply trying to learn something by reading their books, but as they explained how superior their "breakthroughs" were over Frued's... how they'd moved beyond his simple/crude understanding, they seemed to me, at least, to be saying something Freud would have considered elementary, or what he easily could have disproven. They sold a lot of books, though. And now I've done it to them. Pass the prepositional phrase, please! I want to eat my own words.

TBone. That helps a lot. Really. Larry. You've got me thinking as to whether or not I could love a God who does not love me. Where my thinking comes to a stop (and my heart) is at the point of choice. There is but one God. There are many lords and many gods, but only one God. His knowing is beyond my knowing, His power beyond mine, and His love is beyond me. My fear of Him was the beginning of knowledge, my weakness the beginning of reliance on Him, the cross the beginning of my appreciation of His love. He "brought down" His love to earth. One time, a couple of friends of mine passed a bottle of Jack Daniels around as we sat around the campfire. That night, we settled every question we ever had, it seems, including the "God problem." And then we passed out. Trouble is, I couldn't remember in the morning what any of those answers were.

fluency in speaking in tongues -- what a concept! Getting good at it. Why didn't anyone else think of that since the First Century? quote: George, You're also not trying to address the spiritual issues, so you turn to the subject of me. Mike, George is a non-theist. There are no spiritual issues. There is, however, you. So he deals with you.

dmiller... there's got to be a special place in heaven for guys like that. A very special place

sider... like THAT would have helped!

The pretty girls brought lots of guys to fellowship... no shill needed! You had to be more inventive, waysider.

Spot, I wish you could read it in the original comics! :D That's your point about the other-dimension beings, right? God condescends to meet with man? Larry, I don't know what to think about your progression of ideas. Predestination is a tougher nut than I can presently crack.

I see what you're saying. Even though it was "one point alone," there was a lot of "information" in the form of examples and enthusiastic "preaching" (if you will) that brought that "one point" home to you. Where I would summarize the content as "the Bible interprets itself," you would include as "information" the verse, the context, used before, etc. and each example: four crucified, "for this purpose was I spared," etc. maybe even the jokes, "millions now burning," "stay on the ball," "one to get ready, two for the show..." These all had value to you, and are not "chaff." I can see that. rascal... some of that stuff might bring a pretty penny on eBay... I sold about $700 worth of stuff there about 7 years ago. You could make so much money, you could send a spare green card to Johniam as a love offering.

More great posts. WW... great observations. Larry, yes, my attitude is changing since I first arrived here. Definitely. From my POV, it is a "good thing." From my POV, I would say my head is clearing, and that adjustments and changes were and are necessary. I would welcome your POV on the matter. How do you see me? I don't think #2 was ironclad, especially as we approached TWI2

I really like you, Oldies! You could always start a thread in Doctrinal, and present the class session by session with whatever corrections or adjustments you deem necessary. There's really not that much information in each session, and it's not rocket science. If I were to do so, sifting the wheat from the chaff, the sessions would be pretty short. Especially session 12. It would take me more than five minutes, I'm sure, to find my dust-covered sylabus. Where's that chaff pile? Maybe I'll do that. Dan <----- ducking tomatoes ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Loved your post, Abi. All good posts! Now you can burn it, Rascal! Post pictures! :lol: These guys ask for donations of crocs, so they can destroy them in interesting ways: http://www.ihatecrocs.com/ Friends don't let friends wear crocs!

Perfect! Thank you, dear! That's out of the way. Any discussion? Comments? Wise cracks? :) I will return, possibly, with my take on the claims of the class, if I come to any conclusions I think might be useful for others. As I said, primarily I want to personally come to terms with those claims. My overall feeling is that the class did not live up to its claims. That does not mean that I have not gleaned some wheat, nor that I have not enjoyed some benefits from the class and my involvement with the ministry. But the claims were obviously a sales tool for PFAL salesmen, and examining them one by one and asking myself if these claims were fulfilled for myself and for the others to whom I "sold" the class should be interesting. Mike, you are welcome here. But if you show up, I'm going to pretty much let Mr. Hammeroni handle you.

It's been an up-and-down journey for me. Along the way, I definitely had to acknowledge that I was often more of a PFAL salesman than a true witness for Christ. I also had to come to a far better understanding of what the Gospel is! Belle's post makes a lot of sense to me. If I have passion, which I do, it's not towards "converting" anyone to my religious paradigm. If the "holy spirit" is indeed the witness, as it says in the Bible, then my love ought to come across and connect with another person. A strong element of the Gospel is about forgiveness and redemption. It's about a man who gave his life for our sins. Jesus' words and actions confronted religious bigotry and loved the ordinary folk. Makes me want to be ordinary folk. Jesus ate meals with them, which really ticked off the judgmentalists and holier-than-thou's. Jesus had a hamburger. The Kingdom message is indeed a "story to tell to the nations." It ought to be spread far and wide. "Moving the Word" is not a part of my thinking, now, unless the meanings are completely transformed into a declaration of the grace and peace, the heart of the Father, that Jesus made known. That's good news indeed, and I don't have to quote a single Bible verse to "move" it. Sometimes I just have a hamburger.

I would like to add to Abi's last comments, with which I agree. The way I read it, there is an authentic maturity for which Abi seems to be striving, and I think it's a worthy goal for my own life. A "soft answer" is not a rigid "truth," either. What Abi seems to be doing from my POV is to share how she's working with her own heart to engage in the conversation in a way that offers the best chance of success. At the same time, she acknowledges that even a "harsh answer" (if you will -- not her words) can be part of the process of recovery, healing, or development, and even equally beneficial. TBone's remarks which Abi quoted are also great words for me to take to heart. The sometimes brutal shock of my own experiences on these threads has indeed been a wake-up call for me. Tonto's posts have meant a lot to me in this thread and along with Abi's comments and others, I feel like I'm beginning to understand better the workings of my own heart, and help me toward a sincere and understanding attitude towards others, who are working out their own wholeness.

I've enjoyed TBone's and others' humorous takes on the "benefits of the class" from the green card on various threads, but I'm asking this for a quite serious reason. (Between TBone and me, I'm the serious Smother's Brother. T, that's right. Mom always liked me best.) Can anyone post the exact wording of the back of the green card? I would like to have it for my own personal recovery from Waybrain, so I can think through the claims of the class point by point. If no one has an actual card or other authoritive document, I suppose we can come up with it together. Feel free to use this thread to discuss the claims and crack all the jokes you want. The more the merrier, but I do have a serious personal purpose for this, and serious discussion about the claims of the class is likewise welcome. Love you all, Dan Promotes more harmony in the home. Enables you to separate truth from error. Explains apparent Bible contradictions.

Dot, I would be reluctant to call it "stockpile." edited for brevity

me too, and I KNOW she's younger than I am!