anotherDan

Cool, Oldies. Some good discussions along with the normal flotsam, etc. (And don't we all have differing opinions about which is which) but I think my interest is waning on this thread and the False Prophet thread. Just saying in case I don't get back here and notice that someone is addressing me. Y'all know where to find me. Thank you all, and especially you, Oldies. You're a good sport.

I sent the link to lots of folks. Had an email exchange with a dear friend about it. They first said: to which I replied: and they wrote back:

Hey Larry. Good points. I see what you're getting at with the Oldies/anotherDan exchange. I repent. Oldies, I sent you a PM yesterday... Do you have them turned off?

me too!

Sunesis, the God Larry worships may be just as big as the one you do. If you don't think so, it may be because you're not listening.

waysider, are you me? or did I just say that?

spot, that's what I was trying to say!

OK, that IS cute! LOL thanks, eagle

Abi, I don't have any more. It was a one-off I wrote last year. Very unusual for me. Thanks, though!

Boz Scaggs Sierra look what you're done to me live

OK, we are indeed posting at the same time. Just read your reply, and thank you. I was beginning to lose faith in you! Give you up as "not ready" or something! On the positive side, then. You feel that Jesus taught that believing was a "law"? That is, like the law of gravity. Was Jesus teaching his disciples "keys to the more abundant life" that he came to give?

Forgive the double post... rather than editing, since I might finish the edit after Oldies replies. I think chit happens. That's what killed that little boy. I admit, both fear and faith are powerful forces that will affect "our receiving." Certainly Jesus taught that faith "moves mountains." "Be it unto you according to your faith." "If thou canst believe. All things are possible to him that believeth." etc. All that is fine. But it would be just plain wrong to assert that a mother's fear of her little boy being killed in an autoMObile accident is the reason it happened. And that's what DrW did in the class. That's all I'm saying, Oldies.

May I ask you this, Oldies? Do you believe that what DrW taught about "the law of believing" was consistent with what Jesus taught about faith?

carumba!

I quoted you quoting VP accurately; it was a different one of your posts, Oldies Here's your post I quoted from. It's post #192 Now that I've read a few more of your recent posts explaining about the woman not teaching her kid to cross the street, I don't know what to say. I thought VP said that it was the fear in the heart of that woman that killed that little boy. If even today, you don't follow his reasoning, or I don't. He was teaching that believing equals receiving, and fear was the negative side of believing, and it too equaled receiving. And the quote in post 192 (your post) says God is the one who makes things happen, not my believing. You attributed that to VPW. Like I said, you did it to prove he wasn't teaching an atheistic law. Correct. Now you speculate (I suppose... I've never heard any suggestion to this effect before) that the woman may not have taught her child to cross the street. I follow your reasoning: her fear may have caused her to do this. But you don't answer the question directly. VP said it was fear that killed the little boy. Do you believe that?

Chas.... thanks for the recipes and thanks all for the "family favorites" lists. Man shall not live by bread alone. That would be boring.

Abi, and Oldies. Great exchange! Larry, again, "fair enough" I concede the point!

Even I didn't like my last post. You're right. It was unclear. Thanks for pointing that out, Oldies. You quoted VP with this: God is the one who makes things happen, not my believing. VPW I want to acknowledge that I understand and agree with the purpose of your posting that. You were asserting once again that he didn't teach "the law of believing" in an atheistic way. It's the "law" thing that I'm getting at. I feel you've proven your point about it not being atheistic. But what killed that little boy, Oldies? Was it the fear in the heart of that mother? (That's one question with two question marks.) Let's just keep it to that. According to your current understanding, Oldies, what killed that little boy?

RB: Thank you for the sweet tune. Nice rendition! Prodigious vocal talent, and a great song. Dooj: I loved yours, too. I think I posted her doing "I can't make you love me" somewhere on this thread... great performance with Bruce Hornsby on keys.

Fair enough, Larry, and thanks, I think! But I think you just did. :P

Larry, skip over this post! The term "ministry" was, in The Way, used of five church offices only. We all know what they are. The rest of the Christian world, properly, does not limit it to that. Neither do the scriptures. I think an authentic "ministry" can come to a person's heart in a flash, or it can grow in ones heart. It is evident that DrW's snow pumps story describes something that occured in DrW's heart as a calling and an ordination. I believe he lived the rest of his life in answer to that perceived call, not that he did it perfectly (hence, the tombstone -- that saying is an irony and I respect him for having the courage to insist his feeling of regret went on there, and a testament to his humility, knowing his own pride, perhaps). A calling or empowerment of God can take many forms. You have "a ministry," you know. Everyone does who is a child of God. JohnJ has expressed his belief of what God has called him to do (he may have other callings, as well) on his website. Proof of ministry is in the fruit, as Paul wrote the Corinthians that he might not be an apostle to others, but he was to them. They were, in fact, the proof of his apostleship. It follows, in my mind, that JohnJ perceives that his work has helped people who were (in his view) harmed by TWI. Maybe some people have actually said to him (something like), "Your work has helped me a great deal. I was badly hurt by some of the things that happened to me in the Way Ministry, and your writings helped me recover myself from the snare of the devil." I happen to think TBone and Socks have ministries. They might not be to others, but they are to me. Others around here, I think, have ministries to those who have been sexually abused, and the people they have loved and helped are the proof of their ministry. I'm quite sure Wrds has a ministry, but again, that's just me.

So in the case of that little boy, God "made it happen" when the mother's "believing" was reversed? Of course not, VP would reply. God doesn't need another rose petal in heaven. My God, man, that's BLASPHEMY! It just doesn't work, Oldies. It's a broken cistern, a theological screwup. It was sincerely advanced, IMO, but you know, sincerety is no guarantee for truth. VP was a product of his times. Just as he reflected the religious writings of his times, he reflected the Think and Grow Rich boys. The biblical teachings on faith, especially Jesus' teachings and the records of his acts in the Gospels, are badly skewed by this overlay. If you don't like JohnJ's take on it, how about mine? I haven't read the article.

Our understanding of "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" and "God is love" comes into play, here. The statements themselves are utterly true, IMO. The trouble occurs when we say "therefore."

WW, you've moved on to another subject, having settled the "what does God know and when does/did/will He know it" question with the beautiful verse about God inhabiting eternity. It's a good subject. I went through a personal crisis after 9/11, and Billy Graham's message at the National Cathedral, which I thought was wonderful, addressed the subject. But, as I remember it, the riddle is answered by "I don't know." He quotes the biblical phrase, "the mystery of iniquity." It's a rough world out there. There's a marvelous series by the BBC call The Blue Planet that awes, inspires, and terrifies me. Borrowed one disc from the library, several times, until my kids bought me the whole set. Anyway, there is one segment where orcas ("killer whales") snatch baby seals right off the beach. They then play with it, half dead, throwing it in the air with their tails for up to half an hour. The narrator says something like, "We can only wonder what the h3ll they're thinking." (Not really. I think he says, "We can only guess at the reasons for this remarkable behavior.") Another segment shows them killing a young grey whale while the mother tries to protect it. They eat only the tongue or the lower jaw. Dramatic footage, and puzzling. Of course, human suffering is a little closer to home. And it's especially distressing to witness when it's "unfair." In other words, we accept someone's suffering easier if they "get what they deserve." But children and other innocents, like the victims of 9/11, produce in us outrage, that is, if we are not somehow numbed. The Bible addresses this question in what some believe is its oldest writings: The Book of Job. I don't care to debate or even discuss where I've come to theologically in relation to this biblical book. Suffice it to say that I think VP's treatment of it is simplistic and flat wrong. I enjoyed reading Bullinger's take on it (strangely, since I'm not a big fan any more) in his book, which I think is titled The Book of Job, subtitle, the oldest lesson in the world. There are a lot of very good commentaries on Job. Your topic is a tough one. To paraphrase you, our understanding is too limited to reconcile the three statements about God, but you go on to try to understand it, and state some of your convictions (which, BTW, I think are very good.) Here are a couple of other thoughts: As good, honest readers, we take note that this is addressed to slaves, but there are truths suggested (or declared, if you like) here that are not intended to be reserved for slaves only. Note the "unfairness" of their suffering. Lots of good learning in there, if you're a Bible fan. "But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;" Easier said than done, eh Verne? Reminds me of the beatitudes. A follower of Jesus Christ is going to be "blessed" (happy) in unhappy circumstances... such as when he is reviled, falsely accused, etc. The kingdom of God belongs unto such. Wanna go to church with me? <_< "For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust..." If the will of God be so? This, I think, may be an affront to the Waybrained. Get over it. (Only allowed to say that on GS when directed to the Waybrained. LOL) The book Wild at Heart (is that the title) makes note of the wildness of God. He created whales, after all. Lots of great learning there, and of course the context will add further understanding. Got to go for now. Thanks, WW. With you, I am convinced that God will make the world right, after we have suffered a while due to sin, according to the revelation given in the books of Genesis and Revelation, and those between -- the Gospels being the key and the crux. He will wipe away all our tears -- all His children's tears -- even as He has for His Number One Son.