anotherDan

Oldies, you can subsitute "which" if you like-- no problem. Paul called this a mystery (again, if you like, you can say God called it this, since Paul wrote "by revelation"). And it is a "great" mystery -- the mystery of the incarnation. How do we explain it? God "reproducing Himself" in human form? The Word's terminology is that Jesus was "God's Son." After the Way, I finally gave some honest consideration to what trinitarians say about the Trinity. I think you'd agree, a person isn't going to come to a true picture of who VPW was just by listening to his critics. Dr. Wierwille was in good company. Mohammed, who "inspired" the Koran said their is no Trinity, "say not a Trinity" is in the English translation. The idea of One God is without question an important one. But I have little hope that it will be solved by the intellect. The Ford will never explain Henry. We're going to have to take Henry's Word for it. It's a mystery. After reading a lot (and I'm still reading.... TBone: "the integrity of the Word is at steak!" funny! You're my new favorite theologian) I still haven't bought the T-shirt, but I can sure love the people who wear it. And they make as much sense to me as VP's "reductionist" theory. Speaking strictly for myself, the effect of my involvement in the Way was that Jesus Christ was not Lord. I said he was, but I came to know later on, that he was, in fact, not. For me. I wouldn't lay that at anyone else's feet. Not your's, not VPW's, nobody. Totally beside the point. When I "got out," which was quite a while after I thought I'd "got out," I came face to face with this problem. Jesus was not my Lord! Dang! This is a problem. As I said, I don't wear the Trinitarian ("T") -shirt. I also don't go around saying "Jesus Christ is not God," because I don't like to contradict God's Word. If God called him God, then who am I to say that he is "not God"? "Therefore God, even thy God has annointed thee with gladness above thy fellows." (I think that's in Hebrews, quoted from the Psalms?... anyway, in both the NT and OT) When the Edsel can explain Henry, I guess we'll see what's in the woman's purse. My prayer is that until that time, all the world can come to God by faith in Jesus Christ. When you see him, you see the Father. God was not a man. Did He become a man? Strictly speaking, no. It is His Son that was born in a manger, and died for our sins, who "emptied himself" of his glory, which he had before the ages in His Father's heart, and who is heir of the universe for his obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. Seeking to know God, I seek to know him. I cannot go "over his head" to God. That's about as far as I've taken it so far.

Abigail, your presence here blesses my heart. "One God, live love." That's it for me, too.

skyrider, I appreciate your observation about the "life in the twig" thing Watered, you're right... that parking lot was good dirt.... I remember being knee deep in topsoil mud there, six of us at a time pushing cars to get them unstuck after a rain. waysider, I think your MLM comment is on the mark. What VPW was, "first and formost," I would suggest, might not be as tidy as you suggest. Imagine asking Oldiesman, rascal, WordWolf, and George Aar what VPW was "first and foremost." As for myself, I would not hazard a guess. edited to add: Liz and I were married in the Way Woods' campfire area. IMO, the grounds at HQ have been both hallowed and desecrated. I like to think the campfire area could remain as it was, but I have no say in the matter, and if it became farmland, God bless the man who plows it. I take exception to comments about RR's motivations (and others' motivations) being about retirement funds and similar comments about secret bank accounts and all, whether it was TWI 1, 2, or 3. Maybe there's real proof out there, or at least something that convinces the post-ers. (Don't bother posting links to your "proof." On second thought, post away. Somebody might care.) I've seen one picture of trustees at an island location. I may disapprove of their points of view spiritually, but they worked, and I would have no problem (if I had anything to say about it) for them to change venues for a little R and R, and my gut (for what it's worth... not much) was that they probably worked on stuff while they were there, as well as played. Some could care less what the Bible says, but again, for what it's worth... I think much!) there is coming a day when the righteous judge will lay open the motivation of men's hearts, including VP, RR, and each of us at GSC. I am prepared to be surprised. Likewise about speculation as to whether certain people are "born again." That dumbfounds me.

TB: Your observations and conclusions really click with me, T.

Jonny, (whoops! I almost posted your real first name!) Yes I was. I think I figured out who you were about 2 weeks ago, but I can't remember how we were connected... still can't. PM me if you like.

I knew I was in the presence of greatness!

Oak, good points!

RG, I do love music, and I can appreciate jazz, but jazz is often beyond me!

dmiller, you are so kind!

TB: I would say that I: 1. follow what you're saying. You're a very good communicator, BTW 2. respect and (given the qualifications "conjecture" and "may be whacked out") accept it for the best answer you can offer right now. That was one of the toughest questions from my POV Abigail: You've given words to what many pious and thoughtful souls have felt through the ages. Thank you. When it gets a personal as grandmothers, I have to step back and just settle down a moment. As TB indicated, this is speculative. I know lots of folks who are sure they have the answers. Some find comfort in believing (with scriptural affirmation) that the dead "go to heaven" immediately upon death. Others are equally sure that they don't, and find comfort rather that those who sleep in Christ will be raised up to him, and "so shall we ever be with the Lord." I believe that discussing what the scriptures say and thinking through possible ways of possibly seeing from another POV is useful. It can also be harmful, I suppose, if it causes someone else to stumble. Some of these things are too hard for me, like you said. My wife has helped me a great deal to see that I don't have to have it all figured out. A stubborn part of me doesn't like that. I want to have God and my destiny all wrapped up in a tidy little box. I want to be able to have God all figured out so that He doesn't have power over me any more. Instead, I can say, "You promised this, now deliver!" That may be an extreme way of saying it, but didn't we "take His promises to the bank, and demand payment on them"? I've had a paradigm shift. I don't make demands on Him, and if I can't be certain what His will is, I'll wait and trust. This Psalm helped me make the shift. The whole Psalm is only 3 verses: That is not entirely true in my case, at least not all the time. I'm working on it. I hope this Psalm speaks to you as it does to me.

I got it to work with Explorer... thanks, dmiller. I use Flock, which didn't work. Explorer launched RealPlayer. Is this on YouTube? I can't seem to save it in RealPlayer. I can search for it if I have some keywords. Thanks, George! Yes, you are easily amused, and so am I!

true story I visited my uncle Edward (on the left) recently, and he told me the following story Edward loves jazz, and he was in a jazz club some years ago in Chicago. He went into the men's room to pee, and the guy next to him caught his eye. It was Telly Savalas (sp?). He said to the guy, "You're Telly Savalas!" And Telly says, "yeah." They zip up and head out. Two years later, Edward is in a jazz club in Manhattan. He goes to the men's room, starts to pee, and turns to his right. Telly Savalas is peeing right next to him. They looked at each other and both burst out laughing. Nothing else was said. Should this be in doctrinal?

I guess I'll have to try Explorer, too vÉBÍøwÌØ©ýÔ÷½ñ�ËÍV�qúƒòòòó,Xâò ‰ÂªÔg—D/5xËi/ñd`Ëg1ü¼Å– 9x 1KÖ¨É"‹Í `�å‘ž¢”xâuA„ ‰Á“@yy^i ¼ÒÝdK#Ð ÛÚ˜ÖÁ×x:SôæÈGˆ/7€€U¶ð¤Élíg€ÊŒëŽF6¤*ÚݙӢcë�ìû{Šºqí™ÁÚx§O6>ÅÏb™T<WG^SL×­Uj«°ú„-YŽ6òµÉÈAÿÿÀ)���� º���ø��(�º��´\NpŽ+�ðÄÅ!OÂ(‰MÂÛ0\#ªø9alœÁüÁþ��€\ñHG^ØÛŒ Z÷ лw_ôÿÿÿ•€�T`k— ­k<V�l.QŒ-Bç-D±Ht?Ðz��Ʊ°Ê˜Áˆ†,;Dr/5„Å¡ËsQ�L§ÅBªUP¼c edit wow

No, thank you! (Did I have some credibility to maintain?) all in fun!

dmiller.... thank you! I suppose you're right!

Dot! Too funny! You guys look like you're ready for anything! OK, here's WrdsandWrks: George Aar might look like a friend of mine: OK, this is an ACTUAL PICTURE of Abigail: I think Sushi (not his real name, BTW) may look something like this, but with a little less hair, and about 5 more pounds. Best I could do. I don't have Photoshop. InvisibleDan?

"ain't no mountain high enough..." Good one, waysider. Ok, George...

man, there are a lot of great posts on this thread... Dot, this is great! Thank you, dear. Socks, you are quite a guy. Thanks for that sharing, brother. I can learn a lot from you.

you know... that's sounding vaguely familiar... I must warn you, I missed most of the eighties, nineties, and oughts! Come to think of it, I missed most of the sixties, too, but for another reason. :blink:

I guess God would know that, too. It's only a song, Abi! :P

Great post, Wrds. Interpretation and prophecy have not yet been discussed much on this thread (people being as they are, so courteous to stay on topic) But as most of you know, a number of people have had strong opinions of the nature of these two manifestations of the spirit. It wasn't until I came here that I read some of the things a splinter group had fallen into... leaders (and leaders' wives. Inevitable?) "prophesying" against leaders. Horrible stuff--what I read, at least. Other discussions have centered around the nature of the message, some saying that it is praise (i.e. "speaking the wonderful works of God" while others holding to the more traditionally prophetic, including warnings, "revelation," and pronouncing woes, blessings, and predicting the future. Please chime in if you have something to say on these matters. Wrds' point about control is reiterated below: I've been to one rather large church around here that has a bank of prophets, who sit in a certain row of the congregation. If they have something to say, they whisper it in a designated prophet's ear, and if he/she approves (I don't mean to imply that there are or are not women prophets... I don't remember) then they go ahead and step up to the mic. An interesting literal practice of "let the other [prophet(s)] judge"! From 1Cor14, I've long pictured the former prophet speaking to the whole congregation before the other prophet(s) judge, and if something is revealed to another that his nearby, let the former hold his peace, etc. But these folks wanted to nip any stray thoughts in the bud, I guess. I agree "it's so much better when someone is just bubbling forth with a word from the Lord and it comes for as rivers of living water." That just seems right. Hey, Wds: "God was the engineer He knew every name, of those who would ride freely on the Mystery Train." Abi says that's what the basement is for! I'm glad you're here, too, Belle

Leonard Skynard? I don't think I know the song!

beats me!

Dot, I guess you got your question answered!

Thanks, skyrider. You're right, a new thread would probably generate some posts! But this one's serving the purpose. No one can browse these 70+ pages and find many "Big Things I Learned in PFAL." It got me thinking about eternal things from God's perspective, but maybe I should have just gone to church. As a searching twenty-something, I couldn't see that church had much to offer. I know now that I was wrong, but somehow Dr. Wierwille did reach me with some powerful messages in his classes and teachings, and other ministers likewise did teach me "big things." I give glory to God for it all, just as I give God the glory for how amazing and wonderful my children turned out. Surely Liz and I did our best, but I know I failed them so many times. But God was their God, not just their parents' God. Likewise, He was my God throughout my tenure with the Way. Some of my Big things: The Bible is the revelation of God The Bible makes known Christ; Christ makes known God We must not come to the Bible with preconceived notions of what we already believe, but have the humility to let it speak for itself -- to respect it for what it claims to be, and is, the Word of God, which is living and powerful... I agree that though we taught "no private interpretation" the class was full of it. But the concept (which is not really what that verse is talking about, ironically!) is godly and was a "big thing" for me. Still is. It's an attitude of respect for what the Scriptures say. I didn't have that before. Was it poorly carried out at times? Yes, I think that's been amply documented. Like so many others, I don't see the relevance of whether two or four were crucified with Jesus, but the point that was being made was that the Bible was a remarkable document, inspired by God himself. This was a result of Dr. Wierwille's appreciation of Bullinger's work. I think that the Lord's characterizaton of "straining at gnats" might be how he feels about all the press given this teaching, but the "big thing" of what Dr. Wierwille called "the absolute trustworthiness of the Word," I "still believe." Now, I may disagree with how that was handled in the class itself, but I appreciate "the baby." My earlier post about Jesus was a serious one. Our determination to show he was "not God" really for me resulted in him being "not Lord." I had to go over his head, directly to God, but I do not feel that way at all, now. Oh, I said he was Lord, but in my heart, he was merely my brother. Bad. VeddieVeddieBad The preaching of the cross was foolishness to some folks way back in Paul's day. The cross is the keystone of history. "We" dissed the preaching of the cross, ourselves, I think. It sounded good to emphasize the resurrection... surely that too must be preached... but nothing is as central as the cross.