anotherDan

excie, In my mind, you are 100% right about that. You've clarified what I left muddy. Something else about my previous post bothers me too. I didn't mean to project (at all) an attitude of not caring about what VP did or didn't do. I care very much. My point, though, was in regard to my own life, and how I compromised myself. That's all I was trying to say. In other words, what I have come to feel most strongly about is not what others did or what they may have done, but what I did.

The "I know what I saw" testimony, as real as it is to the witnesses, is still internet ether to those who saw something else. For me, the question of whether VPW was a philandering scoundrel is a matter that is to be settled between VPW and the Lord. But I myself am stuck with the nagging responsibility of what I shall do with my own life, and what my involvement with The Way Ministry led me towards: godliness or dishonesty. I have concluded that it is, for the most part, dishonesty, though it espoused and taught honesty. You know, man does not want to be ruled. I do not want to be ruled. I want to rule. I want my desires, my will, to rule. But guess what? I am the pot, and Another is the Potter. In my own journey, The Way defined God, put him in A Box that allowed me to make demands of Him because I "understood" Him and thereby had power over Him, "compelling" Him to "honor" "His Word." Not so any more. Now, I want to be ruled. Damn or bless VPW or anyone else, as the Lord sees fit. Let them answer to the Lord, as will I. I know for certain that without mercy I will not prevail. How 'bout you?

you sound too hip to be "mainline" but that's cool

video is "not available" probably no loss for any of us. oh well

belle good to see you GeorgeStG: thanks for chiming in Socks: your story struck a chord with me. Sorry you were wronged, and glad you had the sense to handle it so well. (It never seems to be enough, even if we "handle it well.") perhaps "the other side of the story" is more mutlifaceted than it would be to use the word "the"

To JustSayNo, your point about civility is well taken. Thanks for the comments.

I just got the CD.... only listened to the first 3 or 4 tracks, and it does rock. Looking forward to giving it a serious listen. Perhaps I'll post a review later. My three grown girls grew up on God First, and this is straight-up Bob Stanley, with more experience. So far, the album seems to be quite secular, without ditching his spiritual convictions. I like it a lot. Wish my bike had a sound system... it would make great riding music. Guess I'll get an ipod. As for Wayfer music, yes, much of it was banal, and far too much was hokey or amateurish. But we were doing stuff. I loved Bob's stuff, and Lisa Tracy's Treasure in an Earthen Vessel was inspired, in the strictest sense of the word. True Way is one of my all-time favorite songs. "We need to show, show the Lord Jesus Christ." motorcycles? did someone say motorcycles?

Good discussion. Another attempt to define "what should this site be about?" Frankly, I would consider it a great loss to the overall discussions on GSC if WD or Oldies were banned or overly censored. I often disagree with their POV, but I welcome the counterpoint their posts offer, in much the same way that having George, Oak, and Garth around offers counterpoint to those of us who have chosen to remain "believers." I'm least sympathetic to Groucho's recent rants, but again, in my view, we ought to have the liberty to say what we're thinking. Even someone like Mike is valuable, if not for the comic relief. GSC is a sociology experiment of a different kind, and, as dreadful or picayune as the discussions sometimes become, I have found it useful for my own sorting-out process in my journey. For some time, I've been percolating an idea that Mark touched upon earlier. The sexual "side of the story" needs to be told, and Mark's suggestion to collect the first-hand and other witness testimony in one place is, I think, a very good one. Even thought about doing it myself.... perhaps asking someone like Wordwolf to help, since for me it would be a daunting task... impossible, really. The evidence is compelling, and specifically to be on-point in this thread, the ability of others to add their testimonies without being harassed, is important.But pointing out that testimony is testimony does not in itself constitute harassment. It's tough to come forward, and any implication that the testimony might be askew in some way makes it all the more difficult, but we cannot ban that POV. It is in fact valid. In the doctrinal realm, challenges to Mike's "witness" to the man-of-god-of-the-world idea are needed, as are challenges to the "chuck the whole thing" PsOV of agnostics. There is real value there. I'm grateful for Dooj's and Abi's counterpoint in this thread to Rocky's POV regarding Oldies. In this way, we self-regulate, as Socks suggested (but we are doing presently, without instituting Socks' outrageous suggestion. Socks, I love you, man! If the testimonies of sexual abuse were compiled, I think that it would make it much more difficult to sustain denial of the problem. In the Way Ministry, we were not taught to be pure. We had "righteousness" all screwed up. There are several reasons for this, not the least of which is the weakness of some who were "leaders" in the ministry. But there are theological stumblings, as well, dating back to the Reformation. Oldies, at least, (if not WD.... I do not know) as someone pointed out, has been quite forthright in his acknowledgment of the evidence, and I admire him for that. So then, my suggestion is that no changes are needed. We already have a decaf forum, for those who find the regular crowd too rough. We also have some strong advocates among us for those who have been hurt, and they are not shy about helping newbies, and going after anyone who goes after them.

nice thread I recommend How to Read a Book by Adler here's the link: Amazon listing

Yes, suicide is a sin. Don't do it.

yikes! Since you could edit the post, it would seem someone has your login info. I would recommend changing your password, at least. The post seemed quite plausible. I could be wrong, but I could swear I completed a post to this thread earlier, and it's not there.

sunesis, my dear I gave up "doctrinal" partially for the reasons you stated. This just doesn't seem like the place for discussions like you and I want. But where is? Honestly, I don't know.

In retrospect, I don't think the Way Ministry did very much right, but there were ideas out there that attracted me, and still seem attractive to me. For example, "letting" the Word "speak for itself." It's clear to me that the Ministry didn't do that very well, but it was a "principle" to which they supposedly held. In subsequent years, I've found that others have really done quite a good job of that, and progressively arrived at an astonishingly accurate view of a 2000 year old collection of documents -- the New Testament. Erasmus, the KJV translators, Wescott and Hort, F.F. Bruce, Bruce M. Metzger -- from a textual standpoint, these folks did some serious and successful work. Alongside them, theorists/theologians like Barth and Bonhoeffer, Pascal, Kierkegaard, etc continued to ask questions of the texts, sometimes better questions than had been asked since the first century. Current theologian N.T. Wright and others have re-thought the post-Reformation and postmodern attitudes toward the scriptures, and I think have truly made some progress in literally understanding the Word more precisely than it had been known since the First Century (As VPW was wont to say). Good points, above about the Gnostic angle of the Way Ministry, though, and LindaZ's comments, as usual, strike a chord with me. The scriptures are indeed themselves living and powerful. "Biblical Research," while wonderful, is not every believer's calling. We take "search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life" as a mandate -- a universal principle for all believers. We do this apparently without recognizing whom Jesus was addressing. The shepherds were not biblical researchers, neither were Joseph and Mary, but they saw "the Word" pretty clearly in the manger that day! I agree with the many voices that conclude that John still has his head in the sand (where the sun also does not shine). My emotional response to CES, and John's periodic attempts to do something godly with his life, is often one of sympathy. They do seem to be stuck in a marketing model, and darnit, the product is not that good. But I appreciate the effort, and often identify with John's struggle to make sense of the Word and to practically apply it. He's a gifted, intelligent, and caring person, who has stumbled and fell, like we all have. He still hasn't got it all figured out, just like all of us. He was hoodwinked by brokencistern thinking, and I think, as others have expressed here, that there are still very important areas that John simply hasn't acknowledged sufficiently to be free of the consequences of that thinking. One of them is the man-of-God ideas promulgated by the Ministry. He's tried to break some of the molds, and he has in some cases, but no way will you see me lining up for a class or buying any books or other "educational materials." Mark's comments about dispensationalism are spot on, IMO. I've posted before along those lines. Thanks Mark. The Way was a rotten tree, but the analogy is not so simple. There were wonderful godly souls connected with the Way. We (I dare to include myself... let others judge) were not "fruit" of the Way Tree, we were the fruit of what God did in Christ, what God did in our lives. We participated in a failed experiment in Christian living, the leaders of which expounded one thing and did another -- not too different than Jesus' day, when he told his followers to obey those funky spiritual leaders, but not to do what they did. The Way Corps site has a marvelous collection of these souls.... and some folks like John, who still feel the Way tree was a good tree, maybe with a couple of bad apples on it. From the blogs and comments, it seems to me that many have matured under God's loving care, and have the authentic fruit as proof of that. What was good, even in the old days of TWM was the love of God that the Holy Spirit shed abroad in our hearts at times, despite the rot at the root of the tree. God has hewn that tree down / plucked it up by the roots. But He has not forsaken His children in the least. Chastise them, He does. Here are some other good things; "fish" and not "bones." Jesus Christ is the Way. The scriptures should be held in high regard. Love is the fulfilling of the Law. Service / obedience to God / labor in the Lord is never in vain. The greatest leader is the greatest servant. These things were taught, but all too often they were not practiced by the teachers. There are plenty of other rotten-rooted "ministries" and "teachers" out there, today. Sometimes those who join them are truly blessed in spite of the leaders, but ultimately, poison is poison. Growing up spiritually as an adult is just as hard as it was growing up in high school. Truth is as relentless a teacher as Reality. (i.e., you are not the center of the universe, and yet, you are the apple of God's eye.)

I loved J. Plunkett.... I loved so many of God's folks from back then

Lindy, I must take exception to your characterization of the McDonald's double cheeseburger. I'm quite sure that it was in fact better before they hid the little hockey pucks in the little warming trays, sprinkled them with cold re-hydrated onion, etc. Much better. In the old days, they fried up those pucks to sizzling hot and put the cold rehydrated onions right on them while still grilling, then they flipped them, grease and all, onto toasted buns, added condiments (no mustard on the East Coast in the early days... just ketchup and pickle... but in California, they added mustard in the same era), and sent it out to a grateful nation. Sushi, I appreciate you (and a number of other people around here who don't want to be a-holes). It is a good thing to be reasonable rather than superstitious. I too might join the unbelieving set if I didn't have such a deep faith! Ultimately, I believe but cannot prove, the wisdom of God and the love of God will shine forth unmistakably to all, including you. There are those who will pooh-pooh the believer for believing that there is a peace that passes all understanding and a love that passes knowledge, but there is. edited to more faithfully expound on the rehydrated onions

Lucy, my sense is that Bob is not so easy to put in a box. Like you, my "strategy" is to love like Christ loved -- to appreciate and value those he gave his life for. That's pretty easy for me when it comes to Bob Stanley. I too bought the new CD. My kids grew up on God First. They are wonderfully matured Christian women now, each in their own right. I bet they'll get a kick out of Bob's latest rock and roll offering.

Jeast, that is so cool. God does indeed have His hand on you! Words, you too!

True artist. Loved his older Waystuff.... the music was honest and raw, but it did represent the party line, particularly LCM -- at times in some aberrant forms of the Pres' theology. But the music was good. What I heard at the myspace site was cool.... I too am glad he's still producing. from his bio:

bump

Yes, my friends, He is good. He's always been good. My question is, are we good? When God saw all that He had made, He declared it "good" and "very good." But it's not so good now. "We" are not so good now. Even the MacDonald's double cheeseburger is not as good as it used to be

LOL

Hienline? Stranger in a Strange Land?

Great link, Dooj.... I've favorited it so I can explore the whole thing. Eyes, the first time I saw "Shepherdess" I was stopped in my tracks. I bought the print the next day. I have since sold it, but I still wish I had it. Sometimes I feel that my appreciation of "traditional art" somehow reveals my unsophistication (though I like Impressionists, like Monet), but dang it, Bouguereau's "realism" appeals to me. Glad you enjoyed it. too.

Artist: William-Adolphe Bouguereau Title: Pastourelle [shepherdess] Year: 1889 Technique: Oil on canvas Dimensions: 62 1/2 x 36 1/2 inches (159 x 93 cm) Current location: The Philbrook Museum of Art

hail mary: James Fenimore Cooper