anotherDan

lol I'm stumped not will rogers?

Judging others was popular sport in the Way Ministry, but the doctrinal matters were different than that ones Paul addresses in Romans 14. In our case, it was whether they believed "the accuracy of the Word," especially in regard to the Trinity, water baptism (big ticket items), and right down to the minutia of our peculiar interpretation of the Word (which is what we meant when we said "the accuracy of the Word.") Nevertheless, the heart of Paul's teaching here applies quite nicely. We ought to "judge this rather": are we walking in love toward those whose knowledge of the Scriptures might be "weak" in some regard? The plain truth is that in significant ways, our "knowledge" was quite bent and faulty. As it is written, "Knowledge puffs up; love builds up." As the fog cleared from my head after leaving the Way, I began to realize that I did not know, practically, the FIRST THING about living rightly, (nor the SECOND THING, which is like unto it.!) Some of these other "less-knowledgeable" people do. Maybe there could be some benefit to us sticking together, and growing in grace together, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Is it Edmonton? Not sure of the name.... antarctic explorer? edit: ah, but he lived!

Bravo! Is he right GSG? (how cultured!)

DM, interesting post; thank you. My experience has been shaped by a definite exploration of my beliefs, and a clear rejection of some of the Way's doctrines. This has put to silence many of the "voices" of yesterday when certain verses are read, or certain topics come up. I don't say that I'm sure I'm right, but I am convinced. I know what I believe. I've had a very successful connection with diverse Christian communities since I left the Way. Sometimes I do get turned off, but I trust in God's spirit to guide me in that regard. I recently felt very uncomfortable in a large. lively non-denominational church, and I know why, and it's not because I'm still waybrained and they are not. But I've been surprisingly comfortable in a diverse range of Christian settings. A couple of years ago, I realized that sometimes the diversity is just culture. I still felt the presence of the love of God and the grace of God among them. I palpably felt it. (And I do mean diverse.) Recovery from cult thinking is possible.... as BowTWI said, He's still in the business of doing miracles, and I say, He's still in the business of loving His children, and leading them aright. Jeast, you are so right, and of course you don't need any confirmation from me. You have it from a far far higher authority. Yes, organized religion can be every bit as dreadful and "counterfeit" as we were told. But No, God can and does work, yes, even as He did at times in the Way Ministry, to touch His children with His grace and absolutely personal presence, even among people whose doctrine and practice is not quite right.

In the spirit of moving on, I'm revealing the author, who is Benjamin Franklin, from his Autobiography. It can be read online in its entirety HERE. Great book! Thanks for playing and being such good sports.... Wrds... I'm surprised you didn't get it! Nice "chime in" --- that was another fascinating glimpse into this guy's thinking, one I had also marked in my copy. I pass to George St. George. It can be any book, fiction or nonfiction. Could be interesting, since it's not necessarily that a person remembers a particular quote, but can figure out sometimes from the content who might have written it.

nope, but thanks for trying hint: It's non fiction. Not Hemingway, not Melville. You know him, though The subject matter does give some good clues. From the same book, a description of an itinerant preacher of the author's day, a Mr. Whitefield. This quote is a gem. the author happened to be the youngest son of the youngest son for five generations, not that he was known for this; interesting, though

Like Name That Tune, whoever names the author adds the next quote. Here's your chance to quote your favorite passages from Marx, MLK Jr., Tom Clancy, and Pascal!

Frank and Ida Mae are the pioneers on the deliverance frontier Along with Derek Prince, They Shall Expel Demons the real front-runner was Jessie Penn-Lewis, War on the Saints

like I said, Garth, I respect your point of view as a matter of fact, I join you in loathing those who would take advantage of the gullible and foolish they give faith a bad name, but that's all a part of this thing spiritual matters, miracles, the reality of the redemption of mankind at the cross, are matters settled in my heart as "verifiable" -- that is, to my satisfaction perhaps my standards are lower than yours; I don't think so, but I'm willing to accept that as a possibility

One of my best friends, and a finer person I never knew, is a thoracic surgeon. A number of years ago, his witness spoke to another surgeon, who is also a local friend. They're workmen, and they're believers, just like me, only I work with building materials, and they work with scalpels and hemostats. They cut stuff out, and mend arteries with artificial veins and stuff. Sometimes they can just take care of business with their special skills, and sometimes they cannot. They believe God heals; they've seen it time and time again. It doesn't matter if they can prove to unbelievers that God works miracles of healing, but it does matter to the people who are healed, and to their family and friends. Miracles are routine in a believer's life. They are a part of the life we have the honor of living. God is gracious, and heals even scoffers! Go figure! I'm beyond the Way Ministry paradigm of having all things figured out; if anything, I'm more wondering and awed than I used to be. God does indeed work in mysterious ways. I'm fine with those who choose to nay-say the miraculous. You're welcome to your point of view. But I prefer to be primed for the miraculous should I, God forbid, need a miracle.

some will not believe, even if a person is raised from the dead

Jeast, Nice to meet you and hear your story. Thanks also, guys, for the Sunny Side and the Gibson stories. Nice light reading/listening for my morning watch. Love and blessings!

If I were to die tonight, I would expect to enter into a period of unconsciousness, and then to be awakened in "the resurrection" (hopefully, of the just! -- the justified would be just, no?). My reading of the Bible gives me this hope. I no longer look to "go to heaven" in the sense that this is where I'll reside (somewhere above earth). No, I expect the whole creation to become new, just as I have become renewed in the resurrection; I expect to live again by the grace of God upon an unspoiled earth, with new heavens above. The language of the Revelation of John is cryptic, but breathtaking. The references to Paradise seem to point back to the Garden -- unspoiled by rebellion and sin, by selfishness and pride. "Where" my dearly departed mother (for example) is, I cannot say. I am willing to accept that my intellect is not up to the task to determine that. Our spacial and temporal viewpoints cause us to see "darkly" but there is a day when we will come face to face with a Greater viewpoint. She may be at rest, and perhaps even being refreshed, as Wright suggested. With the prophets, my hope is that in my flesh I will see God, and so will she.

I spoke with a friend about this last night, and he described the fairly recent death of his father, a wonderful saint. My friend's outlook was that his father's death was a transition. Those who are Christ's HAVE eternal life. Therefore, those who are Christ's will never die. Some of us will not even sleep. But we will all be changed, as Socks pointed out. Biblically, it is perfectly correct to say that someone who has passed on is "with the Lord" (as I quoted Paul, above, "with Christ") but how that is, it does not yet appear, but we do know that when he shall return, we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is. As I tried to get at before, our spacial thinking is not sufficient when the body is gone. Likewise, time may go on, but our consciousness may not notice it, as in sleep. I do not sorrow as others who have no hope. I know my friend's dad is at rest and with the Lord, as are my dearly departed. I'm glad to have these conversations and to hear what others like George and Oak have to say, as well as those who have kept the faith and hope. As I have been for many years, I'm fascinated by doctrine, but in more recent years, I've leaned more on the Lord Himself, and less on my ability to define or explain Him. The Corinthian church, who needed to do some growing up, asked these questions, like "how are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?" And I've wondered about many of these things. But increasingly I'm OK with mysteries and not knowing it all.

If Paul wrote Hebrews, he was in an entirely different mind. Not once does Paul's distinctive phraseology come through in the lines of Hebrews. (i.e. "in Christ") Yes, Apollos was mighty in the (OT) Scriptures, and eloquently convinced others from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ, which pretty much describes the anonymous author of Hebrews, but that's not enough to be definitive about it. Other guesses (Timothy, Priscilla ... hey, why not Aquila?) likewise, are just that: speculation. The canon is composed of writings that by their nature are clearly superior to imitations. Yes, there was respect for apostolic authority (though Luke, who wrote two books, was "merely" a traveling companion of Paul) which is why forgers and imposters named books after earlier authorities. Is the canon perfect? It is if God watched over "His Word." But then we could use that argument that the KJV is perfect; something I do not believe. I do believe that the canon is a treasure chest, and I agree with an earlier poster who said that there is much to be gleaned from extra-canonical writings. Is the canon closed? If a demonstrably authentic copy of Paul's letter to the Laodacians was to surface, should it be added to the canon? Uh huh! And stranger things have happened. I recommend this book by Bruce M. Metzger: The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance

As Paul was speaking of living or dying, he said he had a desire to depart and be with Christ, which was far better -- better in one sense: that he would be "with Christ." But it was "more needful" for him to "remain" and to be "with you" (the Church) for the furtherance of their faith and joy. The "sleep" of which Paul writes in regard to a believer's death includes the idea of an awakening. The one hope of the NT is that we will arise. If we sleep, we will awake, or we will be changed if we are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. You, dear readers, will experience this, each in his own order, as someone said, and "first hand." There are some interesting points along these lines in the following article. I'm not sold on the "intermediate state" being "Paradise," however. As another poster pointed out, Christ himself was not going to Paradise that day; he was going to spend his first day in hell. But it is clear that we are with the Lord in death; we "sleep in Jesus." But there is a time when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality. Paul did not expect to be perfect (teleios) or to have "apprehended" until after he had become "conformable unto his (Christ's) death." Time Magazine article w/ NT Wright edit: Socks, we're posting at the same time. You brought up venue, and that space-and-time issue is a good one. I believe the eternal kind of life transcends space and time. Even now we have that life, and though you're located in California and I'm in Delaware, we're meeting in the ether of the Internet. Hi Sunesis! I enjoyed your perspective!

Vickles' experience is proof enough to me of God. God is love and he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. Our dear Oak loves, too, but views and explains it differently. May you all be surprised by love today.

I thought I saw God spitting tobacco, but I later realized that it was only because the idea appealed to me

I went to mass with a friend recently, just to go, and to affirm my support for her faith. It had been a while (other than a few weddings/funerals). I was a nominal Catholic growing up, a free bird in my teens. I got born again in my early twenties, and then made the mistake of trying to learn and live the Word in TWI, which I did for many years. Not that things haven't worked out. The foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. What's central to the mass is communion, and I love that about it. What was central to a TWI worship service was, ostensively, "the Word" (really, it was PFAL, or DrW's interpretation of the word.) While I agree with most of the doctrinal arguments listed above against the RCC, the Reformation introduced some of its own error. The Catholics, though reprehensible in many ways throughout history, were at times the preservers of the faith and the Word. Man has a way of messing up perfection. The Pharisees did it with Judaism, and all denominations have done it with Christianity. But in the midst of the theological foolishness of the wise guys in the first century, there were people like Mary and Simeon and the shepherds, who waited for the Consolation of Israel. And today there are true saints in the denominations. The Way Ministry was no exception. I've thought at times of starting a thread called "Many Ways," a nod to Ted Ferrel's great song. Sometimes it is clear that "The Way" that someone else experienced is not "The Way" in which I was involved. Some of it is because "TWI2" (under LCM) was indeed different from earlier times, and some of it was different because of local differences, just as it is with Baptist Churches or Toastmasters International. And some of it is just in our perceptions. I can think of no more reprehensible act than child molestation by someone who should be trustworthy, whether it be a priest or a childcare worker or teacher. I believe that doctrinal issues in the RCC, including some mentioned above, is partly the cause of the sensational incidents that have been brought to light, whether they are under-reported or over-reported. (I expect that Ex is correct -- that they are under-reported.) The Catholic Way is not my Way. My view is that Catholics blithely ignore whatever it is they don't want to believe, and that for me is not authentic, and I want to be authentic. But some of the Catholics I know are some of the finest people on earth, and some of the Catholic writers and scholars that I have read are among the best in authentically addressing issues of faith and practice. The Catholic Church is evolving. Vatican Council 2 was a huge step in the right direction. I've given up looking for a perfect church. I often hang out with "independent" little churches, but I can appreciate larger denominational churches, too. Ain't none of them perfect. That's part of why, I guess, Ephesians 4:1ff was written. If I have the forbearance and humility that Paul writes about there, I may possibly be a contributer, a builder (one who edifies) in whatever congregation I may be a part of.

One of the things I "cannot change" is that God is God, and I am not. Accepting that is certainly, in my view, central to authentic worship, and is "the beginning of wisdom". After that, though, we would be well to consider what God means in His word that those who "receive" Him in the person of Christ become "the sons of God" with the power of the Holy Spirit.Freedom of will is a sticky theological issue. (Read any Calvinism threads, or Google "Calvin" and "TULIP.") My view is that obedience is that form of surrender to God which most accurately describes the Christian life -- not only in regard to Scripture / doctrinal matters, but "in all our ways." When Jesus said, "My meat is to do the will of the Father, and to finish His work," he set an example for us. What I'm saying is that in submission to God, we are in union with Him, and act as His representatives, His children. By the way, the very word Islam means "submission." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam (bold mine) Which, in my view, shows they have something right.

Vickles, I too feel that you have to find "your own way." The God of the Bible makes perfect sense to me, having experienced His presence long before I "met" Him in the Bible, or ever heard of the Way Ministry. I had forgotten Him, and at times I'm certain, He "departed" from me, for reasons known fully only by Himself -- some of it, I understand. But as Paul said on Mars Hill, quoting a non-Jewish source, God is "not far" from every one of us, and we should seek after Him, "feel" after Him, if perhaps we might "find" Him.

TheEvan! thank you

Good questions, Chuck, and some good answers so far. I enjoyed reading them, all. The part I "bolded," above is of interest to me. I can't say I have the answer, but I'm seeking to know, as you are. I think you've touched on the root of the problem. What theologians call soteriology (a theory of salvation) underlies the discussion about "the unforgivable sin." Dr.W's soteriology was Ro.10:9,10. Others would add baptism or other things (like honest-to-goodness REPENTANCE! ya think?) Is "once saved always saved"? And this eternal kind of life, what is it? What of judgment, which any honest reading of Paul cannot deny that we will be judged for our deeds? And how does that work with the king's judgment in Matthew 25? In my own journey, I've concluded to leave the judging to the Lord. I don't judge myself "in" and others "in" or "out." I think Paul did the same thing. This does not preclude some certainties in the midst of uncertainty. One certainty I have is that the Lord loved me and gave himself for me. I know that I am called to do good, and not evil. Good is defined by love. I know that my "good works" can never make me worthy of salvation from sin and the consequences of sin. There is no balance sheet that I can tip by my efforts to make me worthy. Salvation is by grace through faith. And salvation comes in the name of God's son, Jesus Christ. I have a longer list of certainties, but those come to mind in the framework of this discussion. I would like for you to be able to sleep at night, and I would like to settle certain nagging questions that remain in my own heart, but sometimes I think we intrude too far into what is God's realm alone. Yes, He's promised us eternal life, and yes, there are rewards for those good things done "in our bodies." My carnal mind was attracted to the concept of His word working "with a mathematical exactness and a scientific precision," and it appealed to me to have all these things figured out. However, what that did for me was that it put me in the frame of mind that I had God's "promises" all figured out, and could thereby make certain demands upon God based on my understanding of those "promises." After all, if I had "done my part" in regard to a certain promise, God was obligated to do His. I could make demand (boldly, of course) just like I would go to cash a check at the bank. God has taught me otherwise. In my self-satisfied "workmanship of the word," I had lost my awe of God! And, of course, it was not my workmanship after all, it was that of another. Having read more widely in the nearly 20 years since I left the Way Ministry, I have seen how others have approached some of these issues (and, of course, I also now have the benefit of reading the wise words of people like Waysider, George Aar, and TBone!). My own view is that life, this life right here, is a gift--every day of it, every moment of it. We are tested by success and we are tested by failure. We have the opportunity, again and again, to respond well or poorly. Throughout all of it, we are loved by God, and He will assist us in doing well. He will oppose us and chasten us when we do ill. To God, the present and the future are one with the past. His memory is as perfect as His understanding and His foreknowledge. He knows what was, what is, and what is to come. Any future I may have would also be a gift. Having this outlook sort of precludes worrying about my eternal destiny. Do I look forward to the bema? Yes, I do, and I dread it as well. For there shall every man have his proper praise of God. That record in Matthew 25 indicates that BOTH "the righteous" and those who go into irrevocable punishment will be surprised by the Lord's judgments. In particular, and of extreme interest to me, is the setting of this prophesy: the rest of the Book of Matthew, which is replete with account after account of Jesus' love of sinners, and continual confrontation of religious idiots, who had God all figured out. Not all who call him "lord, lord" have a cushy future assured!

Tongues being a sign or proof of salvation is not the teaching of the Bible. You have to squeeze it to make it so. Salvation itself profoundly misunderstood in the church, and not just by TWI. I hope it's OK if instead of providing "my" answers, I suggest yet another question? Are you loved? John 3:16 is the answer. Talk about "the simplicity of the Word" being lost! And the simplicity of Christ. Trust in God. Take a look at the cross; that's where you'll begin to understand God's love for you. When you get a good glimpse, you'll not need the meds any more.