anotherDan

((((((( dooj ))))))))))0 Hey folks, try this one on: Smokey.... oh yeah!

Great comments, George. Your sincerity is clear, and your reasoning sound. A fine agnostic you are! And still, one of my favorite people here. Sincerety may not be a guarantee for truth, but it is a guarantee of eloquence. I sympathize with anyone who has to endure church, as you have, the mini-corps and junior corps sharings on this site, as well. That was not my experience, but I do feel your pain, so to speak. I was raised a nominal Catholic, and as I began to think, I realized that it was not for me. As a hippy in the ’70’s, I "bumped into" God. I can’t say I found Him... I do think the better way of saying it is that He finds us, but I find that terminology rather lacking, as well, and leads to "Why me? Am I special?" the answer to which is yes and no. Unfortunately. The Way was mostly a long costly mistake for me. I’ve tried to strain out the dregs from the holy water, and I still have a way to go.... still making sense of it all. Religion can be and often is evil, just as so many people say, like Dawkins. Easy target. It’s true. Dr. Wierwille even said it! Ha! The other guy, as you noted, did not have much to offer as proof, except his testimony. His argument is no better than Dawkins’, and I would have to agree with your assessment. The interview was somewhat flat. I think the interviewer, for all his boyish looks, is a good one. He gives his guests plenty of room to say something, if they have something to say, and he did then. I haven’t read or listened to more of Alistar’s stuff, but if I do, maybe I’ll post something. I think I have a book or two by him, but my books are packed. I'm moving. Don’t know if it has to do with the regions or what, but frankly, his accent is less appealing than Dawkins’, as well. Let me just mention something about "feeling" in relation to God. When approaching it from the "proof" category, there is nothing wrong with that. I sometimes find it amusing. I’m a believer because I’m an experiencer. I didn’t make this stuff up. It came to me, just as colors come to my eye. If someone says that the red dress and the blue dress are the same color, and that they've tested it and found that to be true, I just have to accept that we see things differently. Of course, that’s a mystery that is worth exploring, but absent any explanation that satisfies both of us, I guess we have to leave it lie, and hope to understand in the future. But about feelings. As much as I would like to "practice the presence of God," like so many believers before me, I cannot seem to simply "dwell in Him" at will, and that is where faith comes in. Hebrews 11, of course, comes to mind. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Going you-know-not-where just because you trust. But at intervals no more regular than the waves at the beach, I do encounter God. And (here it is) my feeling, then, is often one of shame. That is correct. Not the kind of feeling to be desired. Here are other feelings: total release, total safety, total understanding that all things are as they should be. That God is infinitely wiser than I, and yet I partake of it. Where the shame comes in is that I feel I should have ‘remembered’ the last time. I shouldn’t have doubted. But that shame is momentary (we speak in temporal terms; we’re temporal beings, or should I say we are eternal beings in a temporal universe). That shame is "immediately" wiped away and insignificant. It’s like when we misjudge the fidelity of a friend, and come to find that we obviously misread him or her. My theory is that it is POSSIBLE that some (if not all) of us have "been there" and forgotten. I simply do not know. The world is loud. The presence of evil is undeniable. Life is hard, yadayada. Life is not fair. Disproves the love of God or the omnipotence of God? Not to me. I’m a believer, and I have hope for myself, and for others. Dawkins and Carlin are self-revealing about their rejection of the Judeo-Christian God. (I don’t include the Islamic God.... not that there’s anything wrong with Allah. If he is the one God they say he is, and Abraham’s God, they’ve made some serious blunders in understanding him. I’m content to interface with muslims as believers, and, like Dawkins, they make some good points pointing out the silliness of Trinitarian thinking, but they are right about there being only One. I think some are true believers.) What Dawkins and Carlin don’t like is that God is their judge, and they are sinners. That they need salvation. It’s damaging to the self-esteem, you know, and that can’t be right. Not in the 21st century.

Next song: I woke up this mornin' with the sundown shinin' in I found my mind in a brown paper bag within

I second Belle's emotion. You are wonderful! Thank you for sharing your story. It was heartbreaking, but inspirational! It is good! And you write very "naturally." I mean, it's like sitting here listening to you. Not everyone can pull that off. Like Belle, you are welcome to contact me any time. You are precious! Let the healing process begin!

"Behold the man!"

As I thought. Abi's hair is just fine. And the conversation comes back to Dawkins and the God "delusion." Either he is deluded or I am, when it comes to God. No doubt about it. But whom? In fairness to Dawkins, as viewers will see in the latest clip I posted, he as a scientist does not exclude the possibility of God as First Cause. Same as another poster said regarding atheism. Atheists are not +1 or -1; they are 0. They're not anti-God, but without God. To be fair to myself and believers, Dawkins does seem to lean toward the -1, he wants convince others of his zero religion. He makes a case that Intelligent Design is an alternative SCIENTIFIC explanation for the origin of species, etc. I counter that his devotion to what he calls "truth" is an alternative RELIGIOUS belief system. I agree with him, but he probably wouldn't with me. The Judeo-Christian God is, as someone said, the big gorilla. Dawkins makes a good point when he says he's also an aThor-ist. He just doesn't believe in Thor as a true personality or whatever. He doesn't believe in a lot of gods, and neither do I. He just ticks One more off his list that I don't. And there the issue lies. My "truth" is experiential. So is his. Science attempts to be objective, but its truths are as experiential and subjective as my own. There is no God until you meet Him. I can't say Dawkins has never met Him. Maybe he's just forgotten, or he's delusional.

All good points, Tom. And you clearly did NOT say that GS was a "neutral site." Your POV is well taken. How ever they decide to handle it is fine with me. I agree that being forthright is the fast track to healing/reconciliation/moving on. I won't speculate on what their actions/inactions "say" because again, I'm too far outside the loop to have a proper picture. Maybe your take on it is the best way to go. I'm very careful about attaching the motives of someone else's heart to what their actions "say" to me, even if I'm well informed. That one has come back to bite me, where I've been totally wrong. (Like with my WIFE or KIDS!) Yes, I can "see" peoples' hearts at times, at least I think I can, but I often withhold judgment, deferring to the Lord. In my "Christian Maturity Program," I see myself as more mature when I have a wisdom/graciousness thing going than when I have a knowledge/judgmental thing going. Nothing wrong with knowledge, per se, and we are to judge in prescribed ways. I know that. Can I drop this thread now? All those in favor, don't say anything.

Tom, yeah, that too, I suppose. Nice thing about free speech. One can speak or not speak. To me, some of what is going on looks like badgering, condemnation, and baiting. I don't know. Maybe DWBH is really on a mission from God to hold the irresponsible to account. Forces of light vs. forces of darkness. I'm just saying, it seems like a different kind of Christianity than what I've come into. Jesus did confront religious idiots. One important element was that he was not one himself. I was, therefore I can have empathy for fellowidiots. I confront my friends sometimes because that's what friends do. The trust level is there because the love is there. I've gotten more than one private mail regarding this thread. I realize I'm an outsider looking in. I don't have a stake in the organization. My only interest is in healing, truth, honesty. I care about DWBH, I care about JL, and I care about the people that are affected by ministries such as CES. I know some of the story, but not all, by any means. God rules via the Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit. At times, we as sons can participate and cooperate with what God is doing in the present, in our world, making things right. "Thy will be done upon earth, as it is in heaven."

Roy, "marvel not if the world hate you." Some websites do not have room for opinions other than their agenda. Sky, in my deluded condition, it's hard to tell. :wacko:

speaking of poetry. I hooked up with Lonnell Johnson because years ago, I had one of his poems on my website. He was Googling for another poem I had on the site, and my site came up. Alongside the poem he was seeking was one of his own poems. He wrote me, saying... "imagine my delight..." We later hooked up in person... I drove out to Shippensburg University, where he was doing a lecture on the blues. Had a great time with him afterwards over coffee, and sang him a song or two in the parking lot with my guitar. He's still Lonnell!

I too think the poem is truly inspired. It stirs the heartstrings, doesn't it? I think Dr. did a good job when he recited it. What a conundrum about how deeply DrW was moved by others' work... whether it was theological or artistic. He was an "adapter" and an adopter. Remember the Way Corps poem thingy? He "rewrote" Van Dyke: What is the Way Corps? third to last line: "but equipped believers, ambassadors strong and wise, who teach..." I think I can quote a line from Kahlil Gibran ... I remember reading it in college: "They dip their pens in our hearts, and think they are inspired."

Great post, George. Your choice, of course, but I suggest you copy and paste it to your "permanent record," Fresh Aar. Here's a pretty good answer from "the other side." Alistar McGrath was an atheist. Now he's Christian. He's a little more substantive elsewhere, but this is pretty good. And he's British, too, like Dawkins, so he delivers his message in the same respected accent.

Ab, you seem to be saying that we're all deluded. Well, the only one I'm sure about is me. :o I've looked at a lot of the atheist / Dawkins stuff that's out there. Here's a good one where again Dawkins speaks for himself, and it addresses the thing that Socks brought up about proof. He also addresses Abi's "happiness" point of view. Good interviewer. Belle, you'll like this one

In honor of the Richard Dawkins thread Jethro Tull live, "My God" lyrics: People -- what have you done -- locked Him in His golden cage. Made Him bend to your religion -- Him resurrected from the grave. He is the god of nothing -- if that's all that you can see. You are the god of everything -- He's inside you and me. So lean upon Him gently and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you used to waive. [in this live version, he adds around minute 7: "The Jew and Christian, Muslim is waiting to be free..." {unintelligable}... ending with "part of me"] The bloody Church of England -- in chains of history -- requests your earthly presence at the vicarage for tea. And the graven image you-know-who -- with His plastic crucifix -- he's got him fixed -- confuses me as to who and where and why -- as to how he gets his kicks. Confessing to the endless sin -- the endless whining sounds. You'll be praying till next Thursday to all the gods that you can count.

As I'm sure you know, that's you. I've heard that there are happy atheists and depressed and miserable theists. That last is a classic observation. In the rest of the book and elsewhere, Dawkins can be forthright about this. The burden of proof lies with the affirmative group. Proving a negative is much harder. Fact is, God is "there" for all of us. Some of us accept Him and some reject Him. We also accept or reject all kinds of religious poo poo about Him. The doctrine of the Trinity is an easy target (how well we know) and it's easy enough to prove God is jealous, and make fun of that. But "homophobic"? I think not! He's just our Original Manufacturer, and brings up in Romans one what is "unseemly" (KJV) On a physical level, for example, it could be noted that there is a purpose for man's rectum. But Dr.W was right about one thing. If someone gives you a pen, for example, you could use it as a toothpick. (Trinitarians are not the only group that is an easy target.) Here are George Carlin's thoughts. (Religion is bull......... warning! coarse language) warning! coarse language

Wow. Hey, I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but please don't listen to me. I don't know what I'm talkin' about. Abi... didn't see you here. It's good to see your face. Thanks for peekin' in.

Socks, Sometimes your thoughts take the exact shape my head's in. I don't know how "revelation" could be anything other than "personal."

sounds like Jimmy Buffet edit: Lucille "you picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille, with four hungry children and a crop in the field..." Is that it? Kenny Rogers?

Oak, I respect your POV, and Dawkins' Reminds me of the NPR program All Things Considered. I think it should be called Some Things Considered. I want to be fair to our atheist posters, and to Dawkins. I'm trying to be. The question "What if the Judeo/Christian God is a delusion?" should be asked, and where better to sit to consider this question than in Humes' chair, with the Darwinian explanation for a cherry on top? I'm all for good sense. The world is indeed round and spins daily and revolves around the sun yearly. Microbes cause illnesses. Is God a delusion, and ready for the scrap pile? Have we advanced to where we do not need "Him"? For Dawkins, the answer is "yes." For me, "no." Why does Socks' avatar sometimes dance, and sometimes not? Keplar was the man who mathematically proved Copernicus' heliocentric theory. And he said when he was done that perhaps the world was not yet ready to accept the proof, and that he would "bear it" (the criticism) and be patient. He did the math, and he knew he was right. They were excruciating calculations. He said something along the lines of "has not God himself waited six thousand years for the eye of man to gaze upon His creation with understanding?" (Anyone know Keplar's exact quote? I'm remembering it from a philosophy lecture.) Sparksnotes has 11 concise articles on Keplar. Here's one called: God in the Numbers Mosh, I read the Wired article. Thanks

cman, I hear you Ultimately, like Job, who also judged God, I think a man needs to hear from God himself. "Seeing what there is to be seen" finally came to pass for him... I have heard of Thee.... but now I see Thee

And that's what this comes down to. A man judging God.

fair enough, Groucho

A not-so-innocent bystander, weighing in (or, exWaying...) I never did do the CES thing. In its early years, I couldn't get behind what seemed to be their push. There were good people there. But time tells and time has told. From my POV (admittedly distant) it looks like a dead fish on a bank, right next to a big rotting whale. I read John's letter with interest and pathos, and much of the core material CC gathered in the pinned post. I almost called John, but he doesn't know me. I wanted to offer some consolation/encouragement. I realize I'm stating the obvious when I say that these are real people here, trying to do a good thing. They are our brothers and our sisters. I would hope that regardless of the number of times various people "spoke into the lives" of people for profit, this personal prophecy thing needs to be looked into. I believe real prophecy IS personal. Whether genuine prophecy happened at any time in CES, I have no idea. I wasn't there, falling on my face and declaring that God is in XXX of a truth. Error does need to be confronted, and ungodliness. Is now the time to do it to CES? And in this way? Seems like God is doing a pretty good job of it byHisownself. Right now, it appears to me, they're still in the throes of being very broken. If I were them, no way would I respond here at GS, and certainly not to this thread. I encourage them NOT to. But I do pray that they will "post" their hearts to God, who forgives all our sins, and heals all our diseases, and that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil and live the fruitful and joyous lives that is the Father's will for them. "Moving the Word" and "educational" Christianity were lopsided Way things. The "improvements" of the materials apparently didn't help, either. Stuff needs to get learned, and God has a way of teaching us, come soon or come later. I think leave 'em alone and let them heal. Some of you sound like a pack of people around Jesus, saying, "Moses said she should be stoned, but what do YOU say?"

Suda... You've probably heard this one. Next clue might be the bell-ringer