anotherDan

Good call, mods/paw, splitting this off, as Twink suggested Rhino, you're a religious bigot, but it's not your fault. You simply haven't met the "right" muslims. I repeat, their "Prophet" was wrong about some things. He rewrote the Bible to favor the Arabs (Hagar's children) and he did not accept Jesus' death or oneness with the Father -- that's big stuff. But he called people back to the oneness of God, and that's the point here -- monotheism, and that's why I say I've met muslims who worship the same God as I do. The God of Abraham, and the God of the Gentiles, the One God.

Hap: fair enough Dooj: yup. You're right

geisha, I enjoyed your copy-and-paste about the muslim POV. I share your interest, and your surprise that "muslim" is automatically re-titled "terrorist." I believe "the Prophet" was in error, but I admire the One-God stand he took, and I have personally known muslims who worship the same God I do, though they are confused by the "Prophet's" misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus. That said, I must confess that God visited fallen man, the earth, in the Person of his son.

Great points, rhino. I never heard the term ManOfGodForAllTime during VP's lifetime. Not once. I was in from '73 to '89. VP's teaching, and particularly his definition of an apostle as one who brings "new light" to his generation -- "it may be old light," etc. -- played into a claim of apostleship. While I was an enthusiastic supporter (and for that matter, still am) of some of the "principles" of healthy religion that Wierwille preached (but didn't himself necessarily practice) and while I admit to presently being ashamed at my own longterm immaturity and foolishness not to recognize more of the handwriting on the wall, I was definitely reminded from time to time of VP's feet of clay. His teaching of TheWordTheWordAndNothingBUT-TheWord included "not what VP Wierwille says, but The Word!" I believed that, much to the dismay of others who did not. Yes, there were Wierwille worshipers then, like Mike today, as fantastic as that may seem. But there were sincere, intelligent, and honest people who believed in the message of God's Word, and who were dedicated to spreading the Good News. Even as early as my first WOW year in '74, I was aware of the foolishness of being PFAL salespeople rather than truly witnesses for Jesus Christ. I bought the teaching that I was a "follower of the Lord Jesus Christ..." in a non-denominational non-membership organization whose allegiance was only to him. I've grown up some since then, and acknowledge my spiritual naivety, but I prefer to excuse myself from Dr J's charges. And I was not alone. As the ungodliness and fog increased under TWI2, it became clear to many of us that the thing was not worth trying to save. We decided to "chuck the whole thing." This cafe's visitors represent a decent cross-section from that era, as well as the later eras. Like any church, we'll not find perfection in the leadership, and forbearance and forgiveness are necessary. But it is also true that pride, fornication, and lying are not to go unchallenged or tolerated. Up until my last days in TWI, I hung on to the possibility that we could reform, get doctrine and practice straight -- keep "the baby" and get rid of the bathwater, but that was naive. I see that now. There was too much rot at "the root."

No takers, eh? Here's a new author who is/was a contemporary of the previous author. Name either author, and it's your turn.

Chockfull, your questions are well considered and valuable, but I hope you will permit me to free-form on the subject. The Trinitarian controversy really started as a question of whether Jesus was Divine ("God") or not. After that, the "Holy Spirit" was added as the "Third Person" of the Trinity. Personally, in my own desire to know the nature of God and the person of Jesus Christ, I have come to believe that God Himself visited "us" (the fallen world) in the Person of His Son. His Son, Jesus, is really the only "person." God Himself is not a Person, and "the Holy Spirit" is not a Person. But Jesus most definitely was. No man has seen God at any time, remember? But the onlybegotten, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made Him known. And "he who has seen me has seen the Father." Again, I emphasize that speaking only for myself, my adoption of DrW's "unitarian" stance resulted in my forsaking Jesus as truly Lord. Following his teachings, I relegated Jesus to no more than a "brother" (which, the Scriptures say, he truly is.... but also "lord," and that's a Biggie. Shades of Joseph.) The Trinitarian formula is problematic. CES's "one God one Lord" exposition does little to clarify the "one Lord" perspective, and that is the essence of Salvation. "surely they will respect him" (the son) The Way simply didn't get it. Oak (bless his heart) doesn't get it. I ask myself (because I stand in doubt of myself) do I get it?

I'm just sayin' Groucho's "boot the Wierwille apologists" thread annoyed me. And your (Paw) comments towards Rhino annoyed me. Hence, I'm just sayin'.

God bless Joel Osteen, who took over his father's ministry without any real training (seminary, etc.) and built a mega-church on his preaching. As the RocketMan has said, he preaches a health-and-wealth gospel. It's really not the Word, but he doesn't know it. It is a feel-good "gospel" that is more Dale Carnegie than New Testament. But there is something there that is genuine and pure. It's a shame that it's not all black and white, isn't it?

All right; I withdraw my comment.

Good book, bfh... though that passage is a little strange, isn't it? I don't think Hemingway could have written that! New author:

John, if you're reading this, I get the impression that Ham (and others) disapproves of your conduct and thinking. added "and others"

But, after the new rules, will you be allowed to post? or will you want to?

uh huh..... and Paw.... you want to shut Rhino down?

kenwas, We left nearly 20 years ago, when you were born, and yet we persisted with first one "splinter group" and then another for quite a while. Ultimately, your journey is your own, and whether you perceive it as "God's plan" or not, relationships and truth have a way of making their way into our hearts all by themselves. I have personal convictions that have caused me to remain Christian. TBone's terminology about 2 TWI's strikes a chord with me. That which is pure, lovely, and of "good report" was what kept me "in" for so many years, and yet there has to be a reckoning for that which was unpure, unlovely, and of evil report. Our three children are all in their 20's, and they all grew up "in the Way," because their mom and I were committed. But they've made their way (or, are making their way) according to their own convictions and commitment. Note Raf's post well. This can be a rough place, even as evil as the worst of TWI. My prayer is that you are able to move forward with all that is pure (etc.) and find your salvation and liberty in due course. Love and blessing, Dan

Jack London?

I ditto excie's last comment regarding Geisha.... I also look up to my children! Rascal, while I agree with you on some level, I mostly use the "measuring stick" against myself.

magnificent! If y'all haven't seen it, rent the DVD "Master and Commander" with Russel Crowe And/or read the "Hornblower" series by C. S. Forester (but forget the PBS miniseries) Dana's non-fiction Two Years Before the Mast is a treasure.... early California on a tall ship, just before the crowds came in after the discovery of gold in '49. And heartbreaking. Dana Point is named after him.

yeah, I think so

stop picking on me Tom! lighten up! :P Paw! Tom's pickin' on me!

interesting quotes, and I loved the Wiki-analysis of the author but I certainly haven't read the works quoted

Juan, you make another good point. We didn't really prepare people for when s h i t happens. And yet, it does.

As has been pointed out (by Groucho, I believe), this is not a public site. It's owned by Pawtucket, and if he wants rules, there will be rules. Yes, there are already rules. There are apparently going to me new rules. Perhaps he will "boot the Wierwille apologists" as Groucho votes. Perhaps he's smarter than that. We'll see. Badges? We don't need no steeking badges! edit: the Rules are posted under "Rules" in the top bar of this web page.

Geisha, thanks for the input. I respect your POV. Tbone, I missed your last post. I'd like to put a little spin on something you said: You make it clear you understand what I'm going to say later in your post.... TWIers, especially those in authority, all too often thought the could look into a person's soul and make a judgment based upon "the Word." I saw it happen destructively at times. For that reason, I'm particularly sensitive to being that way with anyone, so I would not say that God expects me to "judge thoughts" unless we were talking about my OWN thoughts. Once another's thoughts become words or deeds, then perhaps I should, or at least can, judge (in a godly way, of course) -- like, as I said before, in the case of fornication, which Paul dealt with (to use Dooj's word) "harshly." But I'm VERY careful -- perhaps too careful, not to presume to know the thoughts and intents of the heart, nor what may have driven a person to abuse food or narcotics or to forsake all that is good in the pursuit of money or "success." Things like Columbine and 911 confound me, as do many lesser things. But (and now I speak to y'all) that's just me. Party on.

Yes, Dooj, whether in the church or in court, there are times when responsibility to judge comes into play. I could have been clearer about that. Pilate was "given" authority, and we may find ourselves in positions to decide right from wrong, and act accordingly. Just so you know, I'm mainly concerned about what my "job" is, and I'm still figuring that out. I believe we are gifted in various ways, and likewise our varied experiences equip us and may even disqualify us from certain roles. DWBH may (for all I know) currently be in perfect correspondence with his God-given responsibilities and gifts -- an active member of the Body of Christ, in subjection to the Head and acting in concert with Him. For reasons more varied than I can discuss, I'm not in a position to be much of a judge.... and yet, I'm sure it must seem, I "judge the judgers." Forgive me this duplicity. It's just what I'm working out in my own life. "I get to use my brain and common sense and assess people and situations as they arise." Indeed. Too bad I didn't do that sooner in my Way journey. (Possibly because I was uncommonly not possessed of common sense.) You seem to have a considerable portion! edited to add the italicized word, which didn't make the statement all that clearer