DontWorryBeHappy

for dmiller and A La Prochaine............ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irYt7GHB_ZE...feature=related#

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funny how this old tune came up during a phone conversation with a good friend..........just prior to my attending a nader/gonzalez "living room informational meeting" hosted by another dear friend of mine tonight..........i'm not gonna vote for nader......i went to show her my support for her political activism, because she is a great person........real "earth mother".............we were the oldest folks there........the rest were all folks in their 20's,.......reminded me so much of the 60's.......the decade when i "came of age".......when i too, had tremendous energy and the enthusiasm of my idealistic convictions............it was great bein' there in that room full of energy and idealism.........and, once again, this song came to mind! #

hello again greasespotters! thank you for the many insightful posts you have contributed to this discussion!.......hopefully, there will be more, and a broad spectrum of experiential knowledge, and current theories/principles relating to the topic will be available for further discussion. no inference should be made from my first post on this thread, that our mental healthcare delivery system provides a benign, or "risk-free" panacea for the psychological, emotional, or psychosocial illnesses that plague our wonderfully free and open society.........as many of us know from experience, there are "bad apples" in most barrels in all aspects of human activity and endeavor.........there are undoubtedly as many poor practitioners in our mental health/social work delivery systems as there are in any field........as someone posted , the attainment of advanced degrees, and licensure to practice professionally in no way insures that every licensed, or trained professional will provide the top notch, expert care or counseling that those who seek or require their services might expect.......caveat emptor applies equally to the process of seeking out and engaging professional counselors as it does to buying major appliances, or deciding which school you'll attend! to clarify, my point was to demonstrate that, imo, vic and his way, offered no legitimate training in pastoral counseling to those who were placed in positions where such professional training was a necessity, and to whom twi followers were directed to receive such professional services. what's worse, is that, not only was such training never provided, but the broad brush of his personal psychopathologies was applied to paint the entire fields of psychiatry, psychology, and social work as being "of the devil", "born in a seance", and of no godly value to anyone who truly believed his version of "god's word"!......thus, as rumrunner noted, his version of what "pastoral counseling", or "ministering" was, served only to build and maintain a destructive, covertly manipulative, hierarchical leadership structure to serve his own lusts for power, control, "material abundance", and serial sexual predation. thus, vic's system of "ministering to god's people" demanded complete loyalty to his way........this required the rejection of individual, critical thinking processes, abdication of the need and right to question his/god's authority, and stunting of the normal progression of individual identity formation..........replacing these with, what turned out to be, unhindered indoctrination into the dysfunctional world of his personal pathologies, and the adoption of same as the "god ordained", properly expected "walk by the spirit" that his "training" programs purportedly offered........imo, these implied expectations produced a state of perpetual adolescence among the most loyal and dedicated followers,,,,,,,,keeping them in a state of "suspended animation" rather than maturing through the ericsonian developmental stage of "identity formation vs.identity confusion", the developmental stage associated with the normal progression from adolescence to adulthood........this produced a loyal cadre of adolescent "leaders" who were totally unable to provide any healthy, functional direction to those instructed to follow them!.........these "trained leaders" progressed no further in their own "normal" maturation and effectiveness than to become, what t-bone so incisively described on another thread, either "victims, predators, or facilitators" of vic's dysfunctionally twisted and perverse "doctrines and practices"!.......all under the guise of "learning, teaching, and living the word of god as it had not been known since the first century"! the fact that there remain today, a fair number of these vic "trained", "perpetually adolescent", "christian leaders", is most poignantly demonstrated by the continued existence of twi itself, as well as a number of twi offshoot "ministries", which, at their core, unabashedly continue to promote vic's interpretations, confabulations, and perversions of the bible as "scriptural truth", or "the rightly divided word of god"!........they offer no more legitimate, professional, or functional "pastoral counseling" than did their "father-in-the-word", and are prone to the various whims and fancies offered by pop-psycholgy, "self-help/improvement" organizations like momentus,........which also offer no professionally trained/qualified counselors or instructors, when they supposedly offer such "professional" help to those who seek it.........as their unfortunate "track records" prove, they usually wind up injuring and damaging folks more than they help or improve them!.......and, just like "the way that vic built", they fail miserably at truly helping or "ministering to" those drawn to them by whatever needs they seek to satisfy for whatever reasons their personal circumstances may produce. the need for professionally educated, legitimately credentialed, and personally skilled and dedicated mental health/social work practitioners is as great as it's ever been in our society and culture today.......imo, it is absolutely imperative for organizations who present themselves as "servants to and for the public good", to do so in a professional, functional ly effective manner.........to provide properly educated and prepared professionals to legitimately assist those in need of their services.......that, imo, is an absolutely requisite qualification, and one which encourages professional responsibility and accountability.........or, they can remain destructive, self-serving cults of personality, under the cloak of "christian churches, or ministries".........the choice is up to the direction and conscience of their self-appointed "leaders".........as well as to an informed, educated, public!..........caveat emptor!......................peace.

hi greasespotters! many posts through the years here at the spot, have detailed the spotty "doctrines and practices" of the approved methodology of "pastoral" or "christian" counseling employed and promoted by twi and its "leadership" during its various incarnations.........as a graduate of one of the earlier way corps programs, and as an "ordained clergyman" within the confines of twi's "clerical leadership" structure, legitimate, pastoral counseling became an increasingly necessary and "required" part of the evolving "job description" for twi "clergy", and those not "ordained", yet still in various positions of "leadership" in twi's rapidly growing hierarchical "management pryamid"............i submit this thread as one of information, and civil discussion regarding the topic.......i invite all former twi "clergy" who post here to contribute their own, personal experiences and understanding of twi "doctrines and practices" regarding the "proper" methodology of "pastoral" or "christian" counselling they were taught, as well as any who graduated from twi's various way corps training programs.........also, all those with questions or personal experiences pertinent to the topic, please feel free to contribute!!............input from any of you who currently practice as professionally trained and/or licensed counselors in whatever disciplines would be especially pertinent, imho! back in march, 1972, as a "new student" in my first advanced class, taught live by vic, i first heard vic's "spiritual summation" of the field of psychiatry/psychology.......he made the following statement, "psychiatry and the so-called 'science' of psychology, was born in a seance"!........ as a 21 year old branch "leader" in the nyc area of the way east, i assumed what vic stated was true, and i took him at his word..........through my 16 years of twi involvement, i accepted this statement less and less........and, by the time i resigned from twi, i totally disagreed with it!..........as a currently practicing healthcare professional, i now see quite clearly, the utter nonsense of this statement, and i am painfully aware of how completely untrue it is, and how ultimately self-serving it was to vic's acting out his personal, perverted psychopathologies,..... which acting out severely injured hundreds of his personal victims, and literally thousands more who were abused by twi "clergy" and "leadership" who adopted vic's pathologies as their own! during my in-rez corps "training", the only "pastoral" responsibilities vic taught us way corps as a group, were how to perform weddings and funerals........the concept of "pastoral" or "christian" counseling was never introduced or even mentioned! .......the only kind of "counseling" we were ever exposed to was via the advanced class or the several advanced class "specials" which were taught at "summer school" in 1974, 1975, and 1976, on "word of knowledge", "word of wisdom", and "discerning of spirits", respectively!.......and, as the quote recounted above demonstrates, vic regarded the fields of psychiatry and psychology with utter disdain and condescending disgust.......teaching basically, that both fields were "of the devil", and not to be relied upon to provide anything of benefit to "god's people"! however, as twi grew fairly rapidly during the decade of the 1970's and the early 1980's, the need for legitimate, professional counseling among the swelling ranks of the way corps, as well as the swelling ranks of twi outside the "root locales" became more and more obvious, indeed, even outright glaring!!........people with "problens" started coming out of the woodwork, and most were never "healed" outright by the "operation of the manifestations", let alone offered any legitimate, professional counseling of any kind!........as far as vic was concerned, "we as a ministry" needed to "believe god" to reach people of greater "social standing" and lesser "spiritual problens"!!.....sic!.........great solution to a growing "problen", eh? as i mentioned on "the flogging" thread, stanley reahard was the first person to begin seriously addressing this growing problem, when in 1978, she introduced the idea of legitimate "christian counseling" to the corps and interested staff at new knoxville, after she had read jay adams' book, Competent To Counsel , and began "publicly expounding" the concepts and principles laid out by adams in that book............in 1979, a practicing psychiatrist entered the 6th family corps, and several other medical professionals were also now in the way corps...........also, several corps grads were pursuing advanced degrees in psychology, counseling psychology, psychiatric nursing, and clinical counseling, and the entire field of mental health and "christian" counseling was given covert legitimacy by DEW, the then recent second vice-prez of twi's BOT, and a kind of "underground movement" to develope the "counseling arm" of twi began to take off..........beginning in 1979, stanley reahard was given official "teaching time" at all the root locales, to teach her "class" on christian counseling to the various in-residence way corps'.......this despite vic's continued "official" doctrine regarding the nature of psychiatry and the "so-called science" of psychology. i took these developments very seriously, and dove into the whole idea of legitimate "pastoral counseling" full force.......i felt then, that it was an absolute requirement for twi "clergy " and way corps to become skilled in the basics of legitimate christian counseling.......and, since i was "back in-residence" with my corps in 1979-80, and spent six months at the rome city campus, (though still maintaining my "on-the-field corps assignment as one of the then 7 twi region coordinators), i spent a few hundred hours with that family corps 6 psychiatrist discussing his field and learning from his professional expertise garnered from his then 30 years of professional practice.........we developed a very close personal and professional relationship, which, i can joyfully say, flourishes to this very day!! upon his graduation from the family corps, dr. L. continued his practice in northern indiana, where he was joined by a 6th corps grad, who had recently completed his Ph.D. in counseling psychology, and i began referring many corps grads, twi "leadership", and others to these men in order to get them the help they so desperately needed.........this volume of "referrals" began to increase noticably after the culmination of twi's 40th anniversary year at living victoriously in 1982, and again after the "passing of the mantle" to king okie in october, 1982..........then, beginning in 1983, there were situations that arose during the professional counselng these two doctors were providing for certain corps grads and spouses of twi "leaders" whom myself and others had referred to them, which began to "break open" the revered "lockbox" so meticulously and secretively developed and maintained by vic, king okie, and the other members of twi's BOT, as well as various "leaders" in sensitive, upper level twi "management" positions!..........this presented those men, and myself with a huge ethical dilemma!........what to do with the confidential doctor/patient "information" that was now beginning to come out of these previously secure "lockboxes"? ........each of us had legal and professional responsibilities to maintain and protect the absolute "right to privacy" and confidentiality of the patients/clients who were receiving professional services from us!.......yet, as corps grads, and "clergy", we each felt a distinct, moral and "spiritual" obligation to confront those who were responsible for the severe psychoemotional and "spiritual" trauma inflicted on this now growing number of victims of physical and sexual abuse! there was no question in our minds that these fellow corps grads were telling the truth.......and as more began to seek help, the pattern of abuse and its conspiratorial, serial nature, along with its sources, became more and more obvious!..........in early 1984, after now scores of similar, almost identical horror stories from an ever-growing number of victims, i made the mistake of personally, face-to-face, confronting der victoid with information revealed to me, and to one of my doctor friends, firsthand from a family corps grad, who had been serially sexually abused by vic, along with two of her teenaged daughters, (mini-corps), and a granddaughter!!.........i have recounted this confrontation with vic, which took place on his motorcoach, previously here on 2 other threads!.............vic's terse response.........."son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!!........then the snarling, teeth-bared tj summoned to "sit" at my feet, while vic exhaled a puff from his kool shorty into my face!.......that dog sat there until "called off" by his "handler", one chris geer. about a week later, i confronted coward allen with the same facts, and demanded to know if vic did or did not participate in the serial sexual abuse of his sisters in christ!........coward lied.........and stated that he had never personally witnessed vic participating in any such behavior.......i then went on to confront coward with specific information regarding his own personal "misconduct", to which he replied, "brother, you oughtta know better than to listen to damn devil spirits"!.......and he walked away from me..... talk about a dilemma!.........i called dr.C., and reported these responses........he asked me, "do you believe them?"..........my reply, "i really don't think so".........needless to say, our twi-world was disintegrating before us, and, as corps grads, "clergy", etc., we did'nt know what to do........it was now a matter of totally re-defining the "word-centered" identity we each had spent years forming in ourselves!........an excrutiating and fear-filled path, from which we both knew there could be no turning back!........we're in a cult!........we've taken vows and sealed them with the covenant of salt!........but it's all ....!.......or, we too are possessed, insane, doomed to darkness forever if we go against god, and the mog!.........how could we even entertain the thoughts that our "father-in-the-word" would lie to us??.......how could we allow ourselves to be so "tricked" by "the adversary"........and yet, how could we deny our own gut instincts???.......how could we continue counseling this ever-growing number of victims??......how could we protect them from "the wrath of vic"??......how could we protect ourselves and our families??.......how could we have been so duped??........how could we survive outside "god's household".......how could we not speak up??........what could we do for work?, how would we support our families?... raise our children?........how could we stay in twi?........how could we leave?..........talk about identity confusion!!!!! corps placements were a month later.......as i had been for the last 7 years, so i again would be in the BRC with a room full of liars, adulterers, drunks, serial sexual predators, thieving, weasel bastards!........more confusion, isolation, depression, fear of future gloom and doom........what about all those patients???........who's gonna be there for them........who will provide their last, desperate hope for help and healing?........who's gonna come after me and my family???..........sorry folks!.......the best i could do was to refuse to stay at hq any longer..........the best i could come up with at that time of total confusion, doubt and fear was........"i gotta get back out on the field, please!"........i can't handle it here any more!........let me go back to ny........i just wanna move the word"!................i never asked to know this stuff!........why am i stuck with it?.........more importantly, what can i do about it??? during the 24 years since may, 1984, i have spent thousands of hours with hundreds of people whom these men, and an unfortunately long list of other twi "leaders" have hurt, damaged, and destroyed during their careers as "christian leaders"! these have been hours spent in developing and protecting professional, therapeutic relationships with fellow human beings who still wear the scars and bear the burdens of the profound betrayal suffered at the hands of these sexual and "spiritual" predators! i choose not to betray the confidences of those who trust and expect me to keep confidential, the deeply personal information they have shared with me during these 24 years, in their desperate attempt to somehow make sense of what they experienced and endured. i wholeheartedly support those who want to regain and establish a meaningful, healthy, identity and self-image. i feel privileged if i can assist them to attain a new sense of self-worth, and to maintain a genuine feeling of wholeness, and mental health, with an optimistic view of their future wellbeing and peace of mind. recently, on another thread, someone demanded to know why i did'nt just "call the cops"?, rather than resort to "just" comforting the wounded? how utterly shallow and compassionless a question! .......imho, a question easily blurted out by those whose willful ignorance of the profound personal suffering experienced by so many, along with a haughty lack of sincere concern for the psychoemotional terror and pain these fellow humans endured at the hands of their "christian leaders"! apparently, those who would ask such a question have no concept of what professional, therapeutic relationships are.......how fragile those relationships are.......how difficult they are to build and maintain.......and, most importantly, how absolutely necessary it is to protect and defend those relationships in order for them to succeed! at present, i place great value and confidence in the millions of licensed, professional psychiatrists, psychologists, psychiatric nurse practitioners, licensed clinical social workers,and the various other disciplines at work in our mental health care system.........i respect them greatly because of the incredible demands and stressors their chosen fields put on them personally, as well as their loved ones.........i respect them for doing their best to help those who need their services, in spite of severe "underfunding" in their areas of expertise........i have watched them touch the untouchable, reach the unreachable, and minster to the sick and suffering........i have rejoiced at their successes, and i have sorrowed with them at their failures.........i have also witnessed them stare down some of the most vile, insanely evil, and despicable characters you'd ever imagine could remain living........and do so non-judgementally and objectively despite the personal revulsion of what they're looking at!........i never saw vic, or twi, or any of twi's "trustees" through the years ever come close to any of that!!..........imo, twi stood diametrically opposed to professional, therapeutic relationships, then and now!...........but i never thought, nor do i think today, that god and/or jesus opposes them................what do you think?.................................................peace.

hiya krysilys! thanks much for sharing for us all to read, the true facts behind what happened 10 years ago! i can understand how it must have completrely rocked and rearranged your world, and how shattering it was to your son, and his marriage!!.......to have firsthand experience of being totally on the "right side" of an issue where "god's word is at stake", and yet, be attacked viciously and publicly by the hounds of hell, chased out of "the promised land" with those dogs snarling and biting at your heels,...... distinguishes you and your son as yet two more survivors of the fascistic, religious system which is twi!!.......it's like watching a movie about wwII, in which another hapless family of hardworking, faithful germans is hurled out of der vaterland by the gestapo simply because they knew too much about the "man behind the curtain" and demanded justice from those who had absolutely no concept of what the words "truth and justice" mean!!.......make no mistake fellow greasespotters!........the doofus from okie and his gang of "trustees" would have gleefully allowed linder to use those weapons had they thought they could have gotten away with it!!......and linder would have joyfully enforced "god's will" if the "suggestion", "tantamount to a command", had been given!! as far as the clapps are concerned, their "stand" was meaningless, imo, and a mere 12 years late!!........this was no "surprise" to them!!........they knew full-well the personal history of their fuhrer!!......that was made quite plain to them, as well as all the rest of the "top leadership" of the reichstadt in 1986-87!!.......they chose to willfully ignore the facts then, and again in the spring of 1989, when they swore their loyalty to the doofus from okie and da boyz in da hoods!!........and again in the mid-nineties, when they supposedly were "promised" by their king, that he would change his personal perversities, and straighten up and fly right........again, willfully ignoring the destroyed lives and the myriad lies proclaimed as "the present truth" to their "itching ears"!!.......all the while faithfully and loyally partricipating in the slander, defamation, and human carnage of the various "purges" their mogs were directing to cover their religious reign of terror!!........how many innocents did they agree to "mark and avoid" during their years at the top there in rome city???.........how many lies did they shout from their indiana campus ivory tower?? what was the "great stand" they took??........running to the welcoming arms of CFF!!........where they now rule their own ranks of twi refugees........upholding the "great truths of god's word" taught them by their "father-in-the-word" as if nothing ever happened in their vaterland of "god's word" that is worth APOLOGIZING for!!.......the same phoney, putrid doctrines are held forth by them as if they took some great stand for "truth" by finally leaving their happy, harmless little cult........only to jump right into an offshoot spawned and nurtured by the same poisoned "spiritual DNA" that gave birth to twi!! how many children were bruised and beaten under their watch at rome city??........how many "cop outs" were publicly and privately defamed, lied about, and ridiculed by their loyal, wagging tongues?......how many victims were led to the king's private chamber by boob and doody moynihan under their very noses??.........how many "devils" were "cast out" by their self-deluded operation of the "manifestations"??.......how many grossly perverse and deviant "doctrines" were proclaimed as "god's word" by their faithfully foul "teachings"??............and, how many real changes to all of these "great spiritual truths, not known since the first century" have they made in their long march of "rightly dividing the word of god" during these last 10 years??...........and, perhaps most importantly, how many apologies have they made to those whom they despitefully used and abused during their 12 years of faithful service behind their "walls of zion in the promised land of the present truth"??..............HOW MANY, WAYNE AND FERN??.........HOW LONG WILL YOU PERSIST IN DELAYING, AND THEREFORE DENYING, JUSTICE TO THOSE YOU WILLINGLY AND WILLFULLY SACRIFICED UPON THE ALTAR OF YOUR IDOLS?? thanks again krys, for the honest, genuine stand you took, along with your son, not only then, but also during these last 10 years!..........one thing i've learned during my 50+ years on this earth, is that the words of that old adage, "what goes around comes around", are generally true........."it all comes out in the wash", eventually!.......and i'm truly glad your son is prospering and enjoying his "new" life and family.........truly, god can "restore the years the locusts have eaten"........i'm looking forward to hearing the final pieces to the puzzle you have yet to share with us, and i'm grateful to pawtucket for providing you a safe haven to tell "the other side of the story" here at our favorite cyber-cafe!..................................peace.

goodnight!.............peace and happiness from jimi and me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHC9bxQkLCQ#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEC5s3nzVzo...feature=related#

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwbBxxML6iM...feature=related#

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another absolute classic!.......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03uGkfxLDo#

one of my all-time favorite clapton performances............40 years old now!!! #

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf5uGPdFnpk#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FED2Tdov_4I...feature=related#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WXIom2IT1M...feature=related#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXSyi_cDaJA...feature=related#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdzenywqIQo...feature=related#

there was an old saying back in the day, "no one can do it like sam cooke can do it".............and it was true.................... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxxsADrTlYc# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWqnvu4A8Oo...feature=related# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5lrtAgDmRg...feature=related# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRuNZ6mB-YY...feature=related# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLPICoxR6_c...feature=related# # http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxx3C4eeII...feature=related#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKGZmYzWk8U...feature=related#

still bookin' and MG'in.................... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdj970vqyOU#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Qmza3KpoU#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXItowTzX-A# again, booker t and the mg"s back-up on that one, as well as the next one too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_juH0AHvwk#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_oVdqBiAeE...feature=related# # http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5aVhLjT7UE&NR=1#