DontWorryBeHappy

do "doves" eat alaskan king salmon jonny?......or do they just pick at the rotting carcasses???...................just wonderin'.................peace.

looks like cff and s.o.w.e.r.s will have to be the bastions of truth for the wierwille family now!.........that's where vic's kids, those who still care to, are carrying on the old man's "ministry" to the world these days!.......does that count as them "standing on das verd"?.......or is that "prophecy of der victoid" as vapid and void of "truth" as the rest of his "ministry"?................just askin'!..............................peace.

hiya oakspear!........happy birthday to my "brother from a different mother"!.............best wishes for many more birthdays enjoyed in health, joy, and.................peace.

whitedove said: "Why for the life of me anyone would consider sharing personal stories of achievement baiting is beyond me. I suppose if one just could not tolerate any good then maybe it would be to them. It's generally accepted that sharing such stories helps to inspire others to success. " imho, kristen skedgell's story as told in "Losing The Way" is an excellent story chronicling one woman's personal struggle to succeed despite horrible physical, sexual, and spiritual/clergy abuse perpetrated against her by her twi "clergy" ex-spouse, as well as the founding president of twi himself!........she survived these psychoemotional acts of terrorism, went on to receive a post-graduate degree, and now works with the chronically mentally ill in a maximum security prison!.......now that's a a terrific story of personal triumph leading to a life of genuine service to and care for the psychosocial "refuse" of our society...........truly a path which exemplifies a great answer to the popular christian question of "what would jesus do?"!! whitedove also said, "Just wanted to say would you consider posting that great story that you emailed me a few days back. On living the it is written lifestyle vs compliance. Some here think it is a special talent perhaps if more people were to post their experiances they would see it is not the exception to live this way but indeed the Words Way. It truely is available to all who choose."............WHY DOES THIS APPLY TO JONNY LINGO'S CUTE LITTLE STORIES ABOUT "LIVING THE IT-IS-WRIITEN LIFESTYLE" OF IN-REZ WAY CORPS AND TWI "CLERGY", BUT NOT TO KRISTEN SKEDGELL'S STORY OF DOING THE SAME???...........kristen's story was also posted here on the greasespot radio forum, whereupon whitedove thought it perfectly appropriate to trash her story, question her credibility, deny that there was anything of "scriptural truth" and value in what she recounts as firsthand, personal experience, and categorized her agonizing story as "undocumentable stories" not worthy of his consideration because, in his opinion, it was just a "one-sided" "opinion" the sharing of which is devoid of any real benefit to anyone foolish enough to believe it!!! no offense to you jonny!........i enjoy your stories too.......they're humorous, usually nicely written, and often entertaining...........but what makes jonny lingo's stories so much more "credible" and "inspiring" than kristen's, whitedove???..........i suppose you'll ignore these questions just as you ignored those i asked of you in that greasespot radio forum...........i guess "owning" your egregious HYPOCRISY, logical fallacies, and repulsive ad hominem attacks against those whose stories don't serve your own twisted and repulsive agenda of promoting your interpretations of "scriptural truth", and defending the "teachings" of a mean-spirited alcoholic, serial sexual predator, narcissistic sociopath, disguising himself as a "man of god", engenders so much cognitive dissonance in whatever grey matter yet survives in your skull, that you can't even formulate the words necessary to explain your misguided, overly sentimental opinions!!..............it'll be interesting to read whatever self-righteous, smug, rationalization you may offer in response............though i won't "hold my breath" waiting for any honest reply from you............however, miracles still happen...........maybe god will "pull one off" for you and us, and we'll be able to read it here followed by that endearing "love from the dove" signature line!..........now THAT would be truly inspiring!!.............peace.

hey dooj!........don't be afraid!.......you're another year older and wiser than you were just one year ago today!!!........you were made to go out and dance!.........but, not necessarily on those stilts you mistook for shoes!!!!..........truly, a mighty shortness is our dooj, a party never failing!!! best wishes to you dooj, for many more birthdays enjoyed in good health, with good people and good times!..............HAPPY BIRTHDAY!...................PEACE.

whitedove.............thank you for your post #82 last night, which, i think, was in reply to my post #79, which i addressed to you............i apologize for not responding last night, but i got caught up in the the celebration of the boston celtics' winning the NBA championship..........my adult children all live in the boston metro area, and grew up there, and all played high school varsity basketball there...........all three of them were outside the boston garden last night, where they watched the game, and were a part of the post-game celebration, which they shared with me via their cellphones and cameraphones............until well after 1am!!.........it was great fun for us, but it wound up "pre-empting" my reply to you until i returned home from work this evening. i began post #79 with a quote from your post #66, which was a reply to post #64, addressed to you by excathedra.............i quoted your post #66 in an effort to encourage us all to get back to the topic of this thread, which i stated as being "kristen skedgell's interview titled 'Losing The Way Part 2' ", and also in a genuine effort to solicit from you your "opinions" and "views" regarding several specific points kristen brought up during this interview.................i was hoping to demonstrate the fact that, i, for one, in no way want "to suppress someone's opinion and have a one sided view." regarding the topic of this thread, or any thread here at the greasespot cafe!.............my questions to you were not meant to be argumentative or pugnacious, and certainly were not designed as a cleverly disguised personal "attack", nor an "attack" of any kind!...........for the sake of clarity and continuity, allow me to "re-post" them here. "what is your opinion of what ms. skedgell has to say regarding twi? do you agree twi was and is a destructive religious cult?.........what is your "view" of the section of her book which she reads at the end of the interview?..........was "the doctor" a faithful "minister" for the same god you love and worship?..........was "dr." wierwille a genuine "man of god" who spoke the truth of your god, the father of jesus christ?...........was he speaking "god's word" to kristen when she turned to him as her "minister", desperately seeking god's wisdom and deliverance for her tortured soul? " "was "dr." wierwille speaking "god's truth" to her when he told her "that's a devil spirit in you"? was that genuine "revelation" by "word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits"??..............was "the doctor" speaking "scriptural truth" to kristen when he told her to take her clothes off so he could show her why her life was worth living??..............whose "side" was vic on when he spoke and ministered to her that day?.............god's?.............was he acting on "scriptural truth" and "doing the will of god" during his "ministering" to kristen that day?..............please "don't suppress your opinion"............i really would like to know which side of the view you see regarding these questions..............thanks for "call(ing) 'em as you see 'em" for us here.......................peace." for some reason, you chose to not answer any of the questions i asked you concerning your opinion and/or view regarding the points kristen brought up in the specific parts of her interview as "re-posted" above..............WHY? instead, you began your non-answer reply with, "First off the topic I responded to was Groucho's blanket judgement of denial regarding supposed wierwille apologists Just so we are clear let me refresh your memory....."...........WHY?...........i never asked about whatever your "first off the topic" response was, nor did i mention groucho or any other poster on this thread!............i did not say anything about "supposed wierwille apologists", nor did i accuse you of being one, or in any way imply the same!.............i did not ask to have my memory refreshed regarding any of groucho's posts on this thread, and i do not understand how you drew such inferences from anything i stated in post #79. you then began the "main body" of your non-answer reply with yet another inference which seems to bear no reference to anything i stated in post #79............."First you seem to think I swallow every thing written on the internet as truth ........I don't!".............i do???............what do you base that statement on?............you set up a straw man, based on nothing i posted on this thread, and then you proceed to tear down your own logical fallacy by arguing with yourself!..........still no answer to any of my questions!..........WHY? then, you set up yet another straw man to invent yet another context for an argument with yourself that, again, has absolutely nothing to do with anything i stated in post #79, nor with any of the questions i posed to you in the same post!..........."her opinion and that is what it is without factual evidence is hers to share she is free to do so. I'm free not to accept it on her word. or to accept parts or all. Actually I don't see much at all scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account. Due to the lack of scripture to examine for truth ,I can concur that there is little truth in the story. But had there been some if it indeed lined up with what scripture says then it would then in fact be truth, regardless of what actions VP may have taken. The Bible does not depend on man's moral rightousness for defining if it is truth or not." i do not know to what extent, if any, you have studied the legal system in this country, or any legal system in any country, but your categorization of kristen's book as being "her opinion" and only her "opinion", because in your opinion, she offers "no factual evidence" to back-up her recounting of her personal, firsthand experiences with vic and his "ministry", is at best, misinformed, and, more accurately, completely erroneous and false..............her entire account of her personal experience of sexual abuse at vic's hands, would be considered, in a court of law in this country, as exactly what you say it is'nt.......FACTUAL EVIDENCE, which would be presented, under oath, as testimony and evidence in support of her allegations against vic, if indeed this would ever have gone to trial.............and it would be subject to cross examination as SWORN TESTIMONY, NOT "OPINION"!! opinion, other than that of a certified expert witness, is disallowed during trial, since it would be ruled as hearsay, and not evidence! i had lots of downtime at work today............i work in the healthcare delivery system at a large university medical center, and there are very strict and specific federal and state laws and regulations which we are responsible to uphold and execute whenever we SUSPECT cases of physical or sexual abuse among our patient population..........as licensed professionals, we are subject to revocation of our licenses if we fail to report suspected cases of physical or sexual abuse we may encounter in our daily practice!...........i took the time today to speak with a total of 22 different licensed professionals about the specific parts of kristen's book i asked you your "opinion" or "view" of in post #79............this included physicians, registered nurses and nurse practitioners, risk management manager, HIPPA compliance officers, social workers, and our facility's general counsel...........EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL i "interviewed" today, told me in no uncertain terms, that if kristen presented as a patient/client in any one of our areas of practice at the hospital, and stated what she states in the sections of her book i referred to in my post to you, whitedove,.............and we referred to it or documented it as merely her "opinion", WE would most definitely be guilty of criminal negligence, subject to immediate suspension of our licenses, pending criminal investigation!...........NO MORE LICENSE=NO MORE JOB!!!.............i would suggest that you do not seek employment in the healthcare system in this country, whitedove!......or the legal system for that matter! i never asked you if there was any "scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account"............whatever that means............i asked you for your "opinion of what ms. skedgell has to say regarding twi?"................i asked for "your "view" of the section of her book which she reads at the end of the interview?.".............instead, you gave me, "The Bible does not depend on man's moral rightousness for defining if it is truth or not. But I suppose you should know that, at least once you did" ....have we met??...........if so, when's the last time we spoke with each other? how is it that you presume to speak for me?? with whom do you "concur that there is little truth" in kristen's story??............me???...........kristen?................apparently, you must "concur" with yourself here, unless you meant to use a different word? you concluded you non-answer reply to my post #79 with, "So thats how I see em I have no comment on undocumentable stories I think I have made that pretty clear before. I can however discuss sections of the blue book as someone brought up because it contains scripture and it can be examined to be found true or not. By the way for the record I see both cases, but the ones that concur with scripture are still none the less truth, even if VP was nailing spikes in Jesus's hands as he was saying them. Actions do not negate the scripture. Judas spoke truth at times he also betrayed Jesus two different things. one does not negate the other." again, whitedove, my questions to you never were for you to "comment on undocumentable stories"!.........i re-posted them above to clarify for you again, what i thought were very clear questions, referring to clearly specified sections of kristen's interview, which is the topic of this thread, and which i hoped would demonstrate that i in no way wish to be a part of "suppressing someone's opinions" on this or any other thread............i never mentioned "the blue book", nor did i ask you to discuss any sections of it...... finally, let me state that, if "god's minister", or god's "spokesperson" who purports to teach or speak "scriptural truth" behaves in a manner contradictory to said "scriptural truth", then those actions do indeed negate scriptural truth as spoken by that man, imho!......the proper scriptural term for this, as used by jesus christ himself is "YE HYPOCRITES!"............your persistence in trying to back up your semantical hair-splitting with "scriptural truth" makes sense to very few here.........it's all based on your opinion, not scriptural fact or truth!.......it is reminiscent of another master hypocrite who tried to parse his lies into truth by explaining to the rest of us poor souls that his argument was indeed factual and true, but it was all dependent upon our understanding of "what the meaning of "is" is"!!!.............my questions are still there for you to answer, if you choose.........it's totally up to you.................i still would really like to hear your opinions, so we can all contribute to avoiding having "a one-sided view" of the topic of this thread.............thanks!......i look forward to your reply!...............................peace.

whitedove...........you said: "Really? why would that be? I call em as I see em. Surely you are not wanting to suppress someone's opinion and have a one sided view." the topic of this thread is kristen skedgell's interview titled "Losing The Way Part 2"..........what is your opinion of what ms. skedgell has to say regarding twi? do you agree twi was and is a destructive religious cult?.........what is your "view" of the section of her book which she reads at the end of the interview?..........was "the doctor" a faithful "minister" for the same god you love and worship?..........was "dr." wierwille a a genuine "man of god" who spoke the truth of your god, the father of jesus christ?...........was he speaking "god's word" to kristen when she turned to him as her "minister", desperately seeking god's wisdom and deliverance for her tortured soul? was "dr." wierwille speaking "god's truth" to her when he told her "that's a devil spirit in you"? was that genuine "revelation" by "word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits"??..............was "the doctor" speaking "scriptural truth" to kristen when he told her to take her clothes off so he could show her why her life was worth living??..............whose "side" was vic on when he spoke and ministered to her that day?.............god's?.............was he acting on "scriptural truth" and "doing the will of god" during his "ministering" to kristen that day?..............please "don't suppress your opinion"............i really would like to know which side of the view you see regarding these questions..............thanks for "call(ing) 'em as you see 'em" for us here.......................peace.

hi all you greasespotters!........ yes, it was bob stanley whose music was pronmoted from "outside" the control of hq.........imo, his stuff was like the early way prod stuff of cookin' mama, pressed down, good seed, and the early years of joyful noise..........his pre-twi nickname was yard dog, and he was into serious punk-rock type stuff prior to twi......and his early twi stuff had a mild edginess to it and the folks in illinois, bob's home state loved him and his music..........unfortunately, bob went into the corps, and last i heard he's still "in" twi down in florida i think.......sad........ polar bear..........i for one, appreciate the info about twi after the fog years, since i left at the beginning of "da fog".........and lcm and geer became increasingly paranoid about any thing they were doing being communicated to us "cop outs", let alone the few of us "seed boys" who were vocal about what the "fog" was really all about!......i have no knowledge of what twi was like after 1989, other than that which i obtained from waydale, here at the spot, and conversations i've had with those who were stuck in twi during the 90's and beyond........so, thanks to all who have provided that kind of info.........and, please........keep it coming!................peace.

don wierwille got his PhD. in education while he was at wc of emporia serving as the "dean" there..............thus, he was already "a part of his father's ministry" while he studied for and obtained his doctorate............certainly NOT "only later"!...........that's one of the reasons geer quoted vic in pop as stating that he "bought don's PhD." with twi money...............that's the facts, jack!................peace.

hello fellow greasespotters!............this thread seems to have meandered a bit, as do many threads which involve the examination of different aspects of the life and "ministry" of "the victoid", as doojable refers to vic...........trying to "make sense" out of vic's "doctrines" is difficult, since EVERY ONE OF THEM was perverted by vic's personal psychopathologies, imho...........therefore, when one attempts to logically unravel the myriad twists and turns of vic's "doctrines", it is often difficult, if possible at all, because vic's "teachings" concerning the broad topic of "the christian family and sex", were always subject to any change necessary, "by revelation", in order for vic to successfully "conquer and bed" his current victim.......... hence, oakspear's observations, "It seemed to me what was considered "off the Word" when it came to sex had more to do with the personal standards of local leadership than anything else. I remember many scenarios: sex was okay, but only with believers and use birth control; sex was never okay before marriage; sex before marriage was okay, but no living together. Just when you thought you had it figured out, leadership changed and so did the doctrine."................are indeed, experientially accurate, as a highly skilled , sociopathic, serial sexual predator, vic was practiced in the "art" of figuring out who his optimal "targets" would be, and just as practiced at finding those other males whose own personal psychopathologies were akin to vic's with the accompanying misogyny............those who were disturbed enough to adopt vic's perversions as their own were continually fed the "scraps from the master's table" as their "reward" for loyalty, and thus, their own psychopathological "twists and turns" governed the doctrines of convenience promoted within and among their particular sphere of influence.........of course, vic's disgusting misuse of personal information coerced from his "kids" as in the "from birth to the corps" essays required from all corps applicants, must not be underestimated..........with the help of various corps coordinators, particularly those at the root locales, the amount of confidential information vic had available to him for the effective "targeting" of potential cohorts and concubines was truly astounding..........and, unfortunately, put to good use! waysider posted, in response to wordwolf's last post on this thread. "I believe you have addressed a key element of the TWI doctrinal dichotomy, WordWolf. In CF&S, VP was teaching about how intercourse is "always a spiritual event" and how consumation is what really defines a marriage in God's eyes. Yet, at the very same time, he was indulging in cavalier, casual sex behind closed doors and out of view.By his own definition, he was a polygamist, at the very least."............imho, polygamy was less the case than was INCEST!...............since vic's victims were all his "sisters in christ", and many were his "kids" "spiritually", (i.e."daughters" of their "father-in-the-word"), INCEST is the more accurate term to accurately describe the depravity of his sexual predation of twi followers...........this is especially understandable when one considers the impact INCEST had on vic personally, both as victim and perpetrator, in his own "earthly" family!........and, to you vic apologists out there, the "proof" you will demand is available from vic's own lips regarding his role as perpetrator, and you're free to do your own "research" regarding his experiences as an incest victim........the "evidence" was volunteered to me by two most unexpected yet equally reliable sources!.........it was not information which i personally sought out............and, because you will not accept it as fact regardless of the source, i will not waste my time revealing those sources here..........i refuse to "cast my pearls before swine" in such matters, and such extortion of information based on the demands of your willful ignorance and denial of vic's psychopathologies is completely inappropriate, imo.............especially since you have repeatedly proven your unswerving commitment to revel in that ignorance and denial regardless of the veracity of "eyewitness" accounts presented in numerous venues! so, the correct terminology regarding the underlying perversion of vic's serial sexual predation of his "spiritual sisters and daughters" is INCEST, not merely "polygamy", since there was never anything close to resembling a "spiritual marriage" commitment between vic and his victims...............he was simply a willing slave to his own depraved perversions, committed only to the compulsive gratification of his own lusts, with no genuine concern or "commitment" of any kind toward his victims, imho!...............want some "evidence"??..........just listen to the last 5 minutes of kristen skedgell's second interview with pawtucket here on greasespot radio!...................peace.

paw and kristen.............thank you both for taking the time and having the courage to do these interviews!..........powerful and poignant..........but, most importantly, factually accurate, and, sadly, absolutely truthful!!..........i'd also like to take this opportunity to thank those who have not written a book, but who have had the same selfless courage to post their similar accounts here at the greasespot cafe, for all to see, (like our beloved excathedra and others), and to help all those struggling to come to grips with the fact that vic was not there for us to enjoy life and enjoy it more abundantly........but rather, he was there to steal, and to kill, and to destroy the hearts of innocent young pilgrims searching for god and simply wanting to be "right" in god's eyes, and to help their fellow humans. " i had a staggering capacity for denial"..........i think we all did! kristen reading the story of her trip to gunnison to get healed by "the doctor" chilled me to the bone!!!.........a genuinely sweet, gentle soul, who had her life stolen, twisted, and tossed out by that drunken, lying, perverted, self-obsessed and self-deluded "man of god"!!........................peace.

hey bowtwi!..............HAPPY BIRTHDAY BA-A-A-A-A-BY!..........sure wish i had some "lost" and never seen or heard before, john hartford to send ya!!!........but, instead, you'll just have accept my best wishes for a great day, followed by many more in health, strength, and joy!................and..............peace.

hiya lindaZ!........always nice to see your avatar and posts around these forums! allow me a short quote from your last post: "I'm not among the VP apologists around here. I have no problem recognizing (and detesting) the evil thiings he did to some people. However, I respectfully disagree if you're saying he never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it. I love you and I respect you immensely. But since Greasespot is a place where all opinions are welcomed, I guess I'm allowed mine. :) " you most certainly are entitled to your opininion, and to post it whenever and wherever you want........i've never known your posts to be contentious, or pugnacious.........they're usually well thought out and well written, imho...........i also love and respect you, so your opinions are always interesting to me, whether we happen to agree or not.......so, thanks for posting the above........differing opinions always make for good discussion, and promote critical thinking, of which i am a big fan. i am not saying that vic "never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it.".........i was not privvy to all the "acts of kindness" vic may have performed during his life and "ministry", so if i did make a statement like that i would be wrong........my response to ex10 was based on previous conversations with her regarding the specifics of her personal circumstances in her experiences with vic and his dealings with her and her family.........and, the details i shared regarding the dinners with my folks in 1975 are also specific to the personal circumstances surrounding his dealings with me and my folks.........and, they reflect my opinions concerning what his underlying motivations may have been........hopefully i'm not presumptuous enough to insist that my opinions of what vic's motives may have been in his dealings with the two specific families i mentioned must be broadened to apply to every "act of kindness" he ever performed..........that is not what i am saying, nor do i mean to imply the same either...........however, i do believe that such "acts" were less often done with purely philanthropic motives than they were to procure some kind of personal gain for vic himself........and this became more the rule than the exception, especially as the size of twi's membership and of its various programs like the corps and wow programs grew............... the reasons for my sharing what i did, were to demonstrate that vic's "ministry" was more of a slick, religious con than it was a genuine "christian ministry", imho............at least in my personal dealings and observations with him.......observations which, perhaps you agree with in those specific situations i mention, though they seem to differ from your own specific experiences with your family...........but, i will reiterate that, far more than not, imo, vic's personal pathologies and perversions clouded his actions with self-serving, immoral, and dysfunctional motivations, and that many times, his "acts of kindness" were not in fact, "acts of kindness" at all, but merely the outward signs of his profound, personality disorders disguised with "christian", or biblical verbiage..............and, as far as just numbers go, imo, there were far more acts of psychoemotional terrorism committed towards "his" people by him, than "acts of kindness".........hope that clarifies my opinion on this for you................thanks for posting yours.............with respect backatchya...................peace.

hello again greasespotters!............thanks sunesis!..........yup, my pops was a good man, and when i finally quit twi for good, i had nine years to reconnect with him,....... and it was during those nine years that i enjoyed the best relationship with him that i ever had during the time we got to share together on this earth, and learned more from him than i could have had i continued to allow twi to keep me separate from the serendipitous "birthright" of having him for a father! fooledagain.........hopefully shazdancer's post answered your questions about twi's destruction of gahagan's political career........(btw shaz........your link to the maine republican convention speech by gahagan one month ago was chilling, to say the least!.......thanks for that)................vic ordered full-time twi employees to campaign for gahagan in that '76 US senate race in maine.....he ordered twi funds to be used to aid that campaign.......he sent people from many different states to maine as "political wows" to canvass and fundraise for gahagan's campaign, and made corps assigments for people to staff that campaign as "volunteers", and some were paid twi employees while they staffed that campaign free-of-charge...........he encouraged way followers around the USA to send money to help fund that campaign.....and, he diverted actual "abundant sharing" funds from twi's coffers to "donate" to that campaign..........those were the specific "less than legal" issues which brought twi's 501©3 tax status into question before the IRS. sam posted:......."Your right, the more I read the more questions we have. Mine are not about who, what, or where in the twi. It's more about the teachings. Am I naive to believe the Word? I find such joy in it, but I don't want to be guided the wrong way. I'm too old to start twi's teaching again if it is all bologne! I need some guidance. I continue to study daily, but now am leary of staying with twi. Please help me, any beliver in the Good News. Sam "...........now that's poignant!!.............those questions are difficult for me to answer for you sam.......it's time for you to answer them for yourself, and you can start with what YOU believe "the word" is, and WHY you believe it......we all know twis answers to those questions, but their answers are wrong, imo....but, that's my opinion, based on my personal study and review of everything vic taught, once i decided to leave twi......i was 36 years old when i left, with three young children (oldest was 7 at the time), no job, no place to live, and feeling pretty alone out there in that "big, bad, world"!......but, the exhileration of regaining my FREEDOM overpowered any fears i may have harbored!.......imho, you are never too old to stop learning and asking questions.............one thing i will say......."staying with twi" most certainly is not an answer you should come up with!.......... there are many, many, threads, posts, links, etc., here at the spot that will help you answer questions for yourself, at your own pace.........plus, there are tons of folks here who have been where you are right now, and who are more than willing to help you via dialogue, discussion, debate, and compassionate understanding.......stick around for awhile.........there's tons of stuff to read, view, and listen to here, and there will be no one insisting that you believe a certain way......that may be something you'll have to adjust to.......you get to decide what you believe and why.........never give up that right/responsibilty again!.........enjoy pawtucket's world famous "reality blend" here at the spot........it's my personal favorite, and the refills are free!.........it may be really strong, and sometimes hard to swallow, but......it's definitely the best cup-o-joe available in the brave new world of cyberspace information about twi and its offshoots/splinters!.................sit back, relax, and enjoy reclaiming your critical thinking processes.........and your freedom from the insanity and bondage which twi is!...............peace.

hi again fellow greasespotters!...........phew!, it's hot out here today!!...........i'm rootin' for big brown to be the first triple crown winner in 30 years.......and, he'll have to do it on the hottest first saturday in june ever!!.......and, if he does, he will have outrun the largest field of challengers ever faced by a trple crown winner!.......run big brown, run! ex10 posted: "If I may but in here, I know I probably don't belong, as I was never an important somebody in The Way. I never had an "important position" but I did spend time with VP, and he wasn't always as is described here. I appreciate what my friend Don't is saying and others, but I had a different experience. The thing is, VP was not a total monster. If he hadda been, he wouldn't have fooled some really talented, smart people. Is there room in the discussion here for other stuff? There is/was a reason VP fooled people. Don't, you were fooled for a long time. Why? Pardon my poignancy." first of all, T.......i really don't understand why you might even consider that you "probably don't belong here"...........after all, you're coming up on your 6th "anniversary" of becoming a member here!.........no nametags, titles, or former twi "important positions" required, as far as i know..........i'm sure i'd never be a fellow greasespotter if there were!!........maybe you were having a "senior moment" and forgot which site you're posting on??..........hehehe...........and, imho, as the "hostess wit da mostess" of the famous TX BBQ's, you certainly belong here more than i do!! anyway..........as we discussed at the last Q, your personal experiences with vic were much different from the experiences of quite a few other young women who became involved with twi and its founder in their teens and early 20's.........his "agenda" in his relationship with you, personally, was driven not by his psychosexual pathologies, which is extremely fortunate for you.......he wanted something more important than that from you.......knowing your family, and the relative "fame and wealth" of certain members of your extended family, he wanted the "feather in his cap" of "winning them over" to twi in order to gain access to the perceived wealth and fame, which he craved to use to increase his own wealth and fame, imho..............your brothers went into the corps........you went into the corps.......your folks opened their hearts and home to many twi folks through the years, blessing many throughout their years of twi involvement.........that's a lot of time and money extracted from your nuclear family, for sure!.........but that elusive prize of getting you-know-who involved in his "ministry" as deeply as your nuclear family was.........that was the major motivator behind his consistent "niceness" to you and your's, imo.............plus, he knew your parents personally, and had probably extended certain "promises" to them regarding his personal "care and concern" for your happiness and wellbeing as you "sold out" to the twi "lifestyle of christian service"..........vic was great at "puttin'-on-the-ritz" for folks from whom he thought he had something to gain for himself and his "ministry"! i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training"...........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"! my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"........... during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in........so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"! as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did. There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It's because of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me! vic willfully, deceitfully, and wrongfully usurped the position christ gave his life for............he stole the love, loyalty, and worship due god and his son and made them his own, for "filthy lucre's sake" and to serve his own lusts......he plundered the minstry of the risen christ, and robbed from the "ministries" of folks like jim doop and steve heefner, and others who sought to love and serve the true god only........he was a spiteful user of innocent christian souls to serve his own belly............and, through flowery words and fancy speeches, he made merchandise of those for whom god sacrificed his only begotten son..............as for me and my house...............NEVER AGAIN!.........................peace.

hi gang!...........i gotta go to work today from 0800 to noon..........so, i'll be brief right now......(i know, i know....."thank gawd", right??......LOL!)......... rumrunner..........i pm'd ya! hi ex10!.........good question........we have spent time discussing the subjects your "experiences" with vic bring up........but, i'll elaborate further later today, after work, and perhaps we can both add some more perspective by discussing the answers to your questions in a little more detail, either on this thread, or we can start a new one....... hey socks!.........i sure don't wanna choke any horses out here in da east, gas prices bein' what they are........heherhe..........but, i sure would love to read that post you ain't posted!!!.......you have an important perspective to offer to us, imho, because of your early and intense involvement with jimmy and steve out on the left coast, your knowledge of and participation in the way west from its inception, and the fact that you too were "ordained" by vic as twi "clergy"...........i hope your schedule loosens up a bit so you can post some more of what's living in your soul...........please? jen-o........i did not mean to imply that you were elevating any folks to "mog staus", or some such thing...........sorry if i came across that way..........thanks for your clarification though! hi now i see, waysider and sudo!.......always nice readin' your posts and seein' your avatars!!!..........thanks for your posts! and........hi fooledagainII!...........you started this thread!...........thanks for asking good questions!.........hope you keep getting good answers here at the spot!.......................see all you folks later today!................peace!

hello fellow greasespotters!...........this has been an interesting thread!..........lots of interesting and informative posts!..............thanks folks! i never met lonnie frisbee or mr. wise..................but i did know jimmy doop and steve heefner........and, of those two, i spent much more time with steve than with jimmy..........i spent a lot of time with steve while he was in the way east.....i was one of only five "full-time employees" of the way of long island in late 1971 through the spring of 1972, when vic "took over" the way east..........steve produced the first pressed down album, and flew steve perez and i out to ohio to participate in the recording of that album.......and that experience was one of the most fun times i ever experienced during my 16 years in twi!!........so many of the songs on that album were written prior to any involvement with twi on the part of the writers of those songs!...........while we lived in a "hippie commune" in the fort greene section of brooklyn during the calendar year 0f 1970........when pressed down, shaken together and running over were known as the band "streetapple", in nyc, ny.........in the fall of 1970, we all got involved with twi via the first fellowships on long island, and many of those songs underwent lyric changes which reflected the conversion, "born again" experiences we shared.......... in all the time i shared with steve h. during those 2 years, never once did i hear him say anything close to "taking credit" for being a "founding member" or "inaugurator" of the "jesus movement" of the late 1960's and early '70's.............there were very few conversations concerning the house of acts experiences in california in the late '60's.......and those conversations revolved around humorous experiences which the doop's and heefner's shared together during those days in the bay area........fond memories of their time together without the poison of vic's "ministry" among them! i knew jimmy while he was in the first "special corps", later termed family corps 1, which was in-rez with the 5th corps at twi hq in 1974-75..........a year during which vic taught ephesians to the in-rez corps, covertly and overtly pushing his personal sexual perversities and "doctrines" upon those assembled before him at hq, while the 4th corps was "pioneering" the first "interim year" of what was to be the "new" 3-year version of the way corps.......when the heefner's were canned in march, 1972, they briefly lived in westchester county, ny, and steve worked as a dj on wcbs, fm in nyc.......they later moved back to the bay area of ca, and never had anything to do with twi again.........however, after the public "disgrace" of the way presents in california, jimmy and judi returned to twi, and were a part of the corps i mentioned previously...........then, upon "recognition" (as opposed to "graduation"), in august 1975, they went to maine, as lc's, where they again were part of a "revival" which led to the whole "political wow" campaign centered around twi's attempt to get maine state senator, hayes gahagan, elected to the US senate.........a very controversial period in twi history, which almost cost vic his "501©3", religious organization tax-exempt status!...........because of "illegal" political activity by twi in gahagan's US senate campaign..........it also spawned twi's "blessings of liberty" class, taught by gahagan originally, and later "carjacked" by tom jenkinson, 6th corps grad, after gahagan lost that '76 US senate campaign......... never once did i ever here jimmy doop ever say anything close to "taking credit" for being one of the "founders" of the "jesus movement"........as a matter of fact, i never heard jimmy even mention the house of acts, or anything else that he was part of in his days before twi!.........i must say, that jimmy was a truly humble man, in my dealings with him, and, i believe he was horribly "used" and abused by vic because jimmy so wanted to "do the right thing" for god..........for whatever reason i'm not aware of, vic seemed to me to take some kind of perverse pleasure in manipulating and "playing" jimmy with his (vic's) sexual peccadilloes and predilections, thinking that jimmy and judi were somehow involved in or pre-disposed to "free love/sex" in the bay area revival of the late 1960's.........and the doop's suffered deeply at vic's hands because of this presumption on vic's part!! the utter horror of vic's intensely pathological "ministry" had a sadly profound effect on the doop's.........an effect from which, imho, they never fully recovered........steve and sandi fared much better because they never came back to twi, to their credit and benefit.....but, they also had to endure "the wrath of vic' and his vindictive and vicious betrayal of their genuine christian heart!........by the grace of god, they survived vic's "ministry" "better" than jim and judi did........ i loved the heefner's and the doop's!.......i still hold them all in high regard for what they "did for god", and i suspect i always will.........i have the fondest memories of my times with them, and i am thankful that our paths crossed in this life...........feelings i DO NOT have for any time i spent with vic, or king okie, or geer, or anyone else in twi leadership i worked with...........jimmy's dead, and i don't know where judi or steve and sandi are today........but i wish them nothing but the best...........and i say, "thank you" to them, and wish them god's blessings, and............................peace.

thanks for your last post batcave!..........i appreciate your response, and john can sure use your prayers!..................peace.

ooopppps!!!..............deleted to avoid double post!.............sowwy!................peace.

hey there waysider and lindaZ!..........yeah........mcnulty....cleveland...........early 70's...........IIRC, bill was close with dave anderson who was from up in your neck of the woods.......the former "extension and outreach coordinator" of twi......the man behind the filming/taping of "the class", who resigned in dissention and disgust in 1973, betrayed and bamboozled by vic...........bill had a nice thing goin' up there in northern ohio...........kaderly's in ashtabula...........lots of nice folks!! in my first year in-rez, in the early fall of '73, vic put together a quick little way productions group for a big meeting vic was doing in cleveland with and for earl burton, the lc of ohio..........they "billed it" it as a kinda "way presents" type of rally.........installing the new, "official", vic endorsed "way tree structure" for the home limb of twi hq.........the "northern ohio branch" which mcnulty's thing had been called, was now gonna be the new, "right on" way tree set-up..........dave daniel*s was to be a branc leader, in cleveland, and jim dufal*a was to be the branch leader in lorrain, and there may have been another person doing another branch or twig-area up there somewhere, in the place of what mcnulty's set-up was.........no mention was ever made of bill and the works he had done for twi up there.........neither vic nor burton ever told us "younger corps" what the story was.........but, having known what happened at "the way presents" in california in early '72, where howard and vic walked right down the middle of the aisle of the packed auditorium, up to the podium, and "announced" the "departure" of jimmy doop from the way west, and installing del duncan as the first lc of the way of ca............and, having been present at the open sunday night session of the ac in rye, ny in march,1972, when vic and howard did basically the same thing to steve heefner and the way east, installing bob moynihan as the first lc of the way of ny..........i kinda put 2 and 2 together as to what was going on "behind the scenes"........ that trip was memorable because we all flew to cleveland in some cramped, crappy little twin engine plane with vic and dotsie.........the way productions group was ted ferrel, claudettee, dean ellenwoo*d, richie dibartol*o, ken mca*w, and myself......along with vic, dotsie and howard..........and, on our approach to the cleveland airport, our little, crappy plane hit a thunderstorm and the turbulence made richie so sick that he vomitted his guts out into his bible cover, and all over his new suit!........in full view of all of us......for it seemed like forever!!............we tried our best not to laugh, but i could'nt help myself........the entire scene was so absurd!!..........anyway........we did a "meet'n'greet" with the limb staff and the "new way tree leaders" at some nice restaurant, and then went on to do the meeting thing...........the next morning, minus ted, the rest of us flew to sheboygan, wi, to meet up with don and wanda wierwille, and attend the homecoming football game at lakeland mission house college and seminary, of which vic was an alumnus..........vic had arranged for our little way prod group to play at the alumni association's homecoming dance for the students...........so, we put together 2 hour long sets of cover tunes and played the homecoming dance at vic's alma mater in the fall of 1973!.........that was the first time i ever met don, who was an elementary school principal somewhere up there in wisconsin...........what a strange trip that was!............ no one was ever told, at that meeting in cleveland, or in any other public meeting, about "whatever happened to" the mcnulty's, and all the work they had done for twi in cleveland, and northern ohio....why they left, or even that they left...........it was all done "behind the scenes", orchestrated by and controlled by vic and howard, with the usual not-so-subtle slander, innuendo, false accusations, and, of course, the "requisite rumours" of devil spirit activity and possession, another vic-designed act of "betrayal" as jimmy doop described what was done to him and judi in ca, to sunesis,........... and as i had witnessed the same done to steve and sandi in the way east, and as i experienced myself in the winter of 1986-87!............the goal was always the same............get the money directly to the mog, and centralize control and command to new knoxville!.........and, by all means necessary, cover it all up, spin it vic's way and cover his big, fat, lying, perverted arse!!...........for this was, after all, "the wonderful, matchless, word and will of god"!!..........once again, the "ministry of the teacher" rising up AGAINST the ministry of reconciliation, the ministry of jesus christ himself,.......choking the life out of the "good seed" revivals by sowing "the tares" of "the teacher" among them, stifling genuine "spiritual fruit", and palming off the rotten fruit of that rotten way tree, as "the real deal".................to twi, and all its rotten offshoots, and all those splinters from its rotted way tree.............ENOUGH ALREADY!!!...............................peace.

hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apologists who post their sentimental ces/stfi info-mercials here in "their" discussion forum at the greasespot cafe............what's up with that? as immensely "talented" and knowlegeable about the "rightly divided word of god" as their prized, christian "leaders" are purported by them to be, why is it that they refuse to share themselves with us here?...........ces/stfi spends their followers financial support on three websites they run and own themselves..........and yet, none of them provide a discussion forum like this for their own followers!...........those sites are loaded with all sorts of writings, "teachings", tapes, cd's, podcasts, "events", etc., which promote ces/stfi and their "leaders"..........but nowhere do they provide any place for their followers to engage their own critical thinking skills, or encourage objective, analytical discussions regarding the doctrines and practices they proclaim as "biblically accurate truth"!..........they used to.........but that was abruptly discontinued when their "personal prophecy" doctrine and practices were being questioned by some of the more "vocal" followers who raised important and critical questions concerning the veracity of what their "leadership" was declaring as "truth"!...........evidently, such free-wheeling, open discussions do not effectively enhance the "group think" twi offshoots require in order to accomplish "god's will"! personally, i'm tired of the excuses they make for not posting here themselves.............and just as tired of the "fly-by" posts their surrogates come up with in their desperate attempts to validate, expiate, rationalize, and justify some of the UTTER NONSENSE they foist upon us here at the spot, and the rest of the known universe!.......apparently it is beneath their "dignity", or their "godly calling" to discuss any thing with any "community" which does not wholeheartedly agree with what they preach and teach!..........or with any "community" which is not as "proud" of what they're doing and teaching as the founding president of twi would be!.........this thread provides several good examples of what i'm typing about......... paradiseden posted, "As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).".........what is so unique or special about these "qualities"??..........they describe a large number of "christian ministers" who conduct themselves in the same manner as john s. all around the globe, without ever giving such conduct a second thought.......that's pretty much the way "christian ministering" is done in most christian churches!.......it's fairly obvious, that paradiseden must have had some experiences in twi, with "christian ministers" whose conduct was quite different, eh?......probaby some of the same ex-twi "christian ministers" who ran ces/stfi at one time!!......there have been a couple.......... so........pray tell, paradiseden, billy d., batcave,...........why do you trust schoenheit's spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?..........do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?...........are you "members?........former members?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among the "qualities" you admire?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among "a few of the reasons why he is the current president of ces"??..........maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly-by" missions...........probably not...........oh well..............not responding to questions posted here in the ces/stfi forum at the greasespot is one of the "qualities" of ces "leadership" we've witnessed repeatedly, and have become accustomed to...............peace.

thanks for the backatchya, and the kind words jen-o!...............btw, glad you enjoy the lower case, the "infamous" ".......", and...................peace!

you're welcome krysilis!............my pleasure..................peace.

thank you likeaneagle!................that makes me very happy indeed!..................yes.....the revival was real, and i'm glad we are a part of god's heart forever because of it!...........thanks for letting me know that post was worthwhile!..................peace.

hi jen-o!..........nice seeing you on this thread!...............thanks for your question...........i do have some thoughts regarding your question which , perhaps may answer it in part...........my perspective is based on hindsight, which, in many cases, may be "20/20", and, in this case, i believe it probably is....... for the most part, i tend to agree that the "nature" of twi is difficult to separate from that of its founder.........but the "organization" we "joined" was quite a bit more enigmatic than just the overtly pathological nature of its founder, because it did suck in quite a number of folks whose "nature", motivation, and heart were markedly different from those of its founder.........i know that vic himself along with howard allen, was "corrupt" well before 1970.......his perversions, both doctrinal and personal were habitualized by him, imho, by the time he left his denominational church in van wert, in 1957.........but, twi really did'nt "take off" until after he finished filming pfal in 1968, especially in the years and locations i mentioned in my first post on this thread..........the large influx of young, idealistic, "believers" in 1969, and throughout the decade of the '70's is what i was a part of......it was'nt vic, or any of the "old timers" in ohio who witnessed to me........it was my hippie, musician friends whose genuine enthusiasm for "things spiritual", and whose marked "transformation through christ", caught my attention..........and, the many "miracles, signs and wonders" which, i believe, god wrought among us back in those days had nothing to do with vic's personal presence or involvement in our lives, but, quite the contrary, it had to do with our childlike, enthusiastic, and genuinely exuberant acceptance of christ as our risen saviour, and our innocent "believing action" upon the parts of the bible we were learning and accepting as "truth".........the fellowships we were a part of, and bringing our friends and families to were really a lot of fun!......and, the fruit of the spirit as listed in galatians 5:22,23 were evident in abundance, and were accomplishing their results in an atmosphere free from the control of vic and the growing cult machinery of hq in new knoxville!.........as a matter of fact, it was the ever increasing personal control exerted by vic with his increasing personal involvement in our lives and fellowships, which, imo, eventually stifled and strangled the genuine "revivals" god was energizing among the early twi fellowships.......this was the fruit of vic's "ministry" being brought to bear upon the ministry of jesus christ.........vic's profound corruption was becoming institutionalized among the innocent, geniune christian fellowships god and christ were "planting" around the USA, not just in twi, but in a broader "spiritual movement" that was far bigger than anything vic demanded credit for!!......imho, vic's "ministry" sowed the "tares" of his personal and doctrinal perversions among the "good seed" god and christ were sowing without any need of help from the "ministry" of "the teacher"! the more involved believers became with vic's programs (wow, way corps, "college" division, word in business, culture, etc., etc., etc.) and classes, the more the "tares" of his corruption took root and choked the innocence and purity of holy spirit and its fruit out of the lives and fellowships of the "good seed"............and, for those of us fortunate enough to have "tasted" and experienced genuine christian revival, and who earnestly desired to see it continue and spread throughout "the world", unfettered by "man-made religion",..........the "vehicle" we thought god provided in twi, was hijacked by the "vehicle" vic provided in its stead, also called twi, but not "fueled" by god, but rather by the growing control and dominance of vic's personal perversions and corruption, eventually yielding its own "fruit" in the monster of hypocrisy, deceit, and abject immorality which the entire organization of twi grew into and remains to this day........a monument to the legacy of the "ministry" of "the teacher"........not the legacy of the ministry of jesus christ to the world..........fortunately, the two are NOT the same! so, jen-o................imo, vic was thoroughly and irreversibly corrupt by the late '50's............and it only took him 30 more years to thoroughly and irreversibly corrupt the entire organization he "founded", and which thousands of innocent "believers" built and paid cash for, for him in the '70's and early '80's.............which he handed over to his "best friend", and his oldest biological son, and the neanderthaal intellect of the doofus from okie, so they could destroy it and its people in the late '80's and through the '90's.........and which is now run by those who are the most loyal and faithful disciples of his perversions, lies and corruption...........those who truly made vic's way, their way, which is the way international!............................peace.