DontWorryBeHappy

hi again ham......and hello to you too, rhino! since you, rhino, have nominated ham for the suggested s.o.w.e.r.s. volunteer ombudsman position, i would like to nominate rocky to be their public relations director!......from what i read of his around here recently, it is indeed a match made in heaven!...........whaddya think??............................peace.

hiya ham!!...........i enjoyed those links!.............very interesting juxtaposition between christian professionals and pseudo-chrristian amateur wannabes!........if i were a parent or a student looking for a christian "outward bound" type of experience, or some kind of character building, development program, and i had a choice of the various programs as presented by their websites..........let's see...........which one would i choose??? it is so very obvious which sites are confidently and proudly run by trained professionals.........and.......then........there's s.o.w.e.r.s................ROTFL!!.........typical CFFM type of info........."if you have to ask questions, you're not what we're looking for!"............"answering questions is out of our comfort zone"..........maybe it's because they're so embarrassed about the answers they have to give?.........they do things according to a world alright..........the bizarro world!.........the world and word according to vic (v1p1 that is).......devotees to their father or grandfather in da werd........qualified because.......???....................ahem, qualified at all??? you know, as i scrolled through the various links provided on the link you gave ham, i was seriously hoping to find someone, at least one someone who was former l.e.a.d. staff or something......you know, someone who really has moved on and accomplished something of note in the "outdoor academy" world.......not a one.........interesting is'nt it?........they may all be too busy hiding their vic-roots beliefs and shady "word in business" backgrounds and beliefs.........i think you should send those links to the sowers farm........maybe they'll be inspired to improve their site........or, better yet, shamed into dismantling it! thanks again for an interesting, thought provoking post ham...........you kwazy skwewwel you!...................peace.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, EYESOPEN!!!.............YOU ARE DEFINITELY THE CUTEST LITTLE SHARK I KNOW!..........wishing you the happiest of birthdays today, and many more in the future, enjoyed in health, prosperity and joy!.........and hearty congrats on your book too!.........a wonderful accomplishment on an interesting and challenging topic!...................enjoy your birthday swim, chum!..................................peace.

happy birthday sir guessalot!............best wishes for many more to come your way, and may you enjoy charging the windmills of static, outdated doctrines and dogmas and continue "guessing alot" about truth, justice and the american way!..................perace.

hi penworks!..........yup!.......that was the logo on my tee-shirts when i first went in-rez, right before you graduated!......have'nt seen that in at least 20 years!.......thanks for figuring out how to post that.........brought back lots of memories of the several weeks i got to spend with you in-rez corps in 1972, before i took the plunge myself in july, '73...............................always enjoy your perspective and your posts.............thanks again!.....................peace.

hi everybody!..........my first year in-rez, betty bowen ran the kitchen at hq, and, a "rank unbeliever", eileen hitchen, was the chief cook.............we ate great food, every day, with plenty of it available!.......except for the 3 times we endured the full three week long, grace bliss administered colon-cleanse torture..er, 'skuse me, program,....we ate quite well......we also enjoyed organically grown meats and vegetables and fruits from the kipp farm, which was run by a tremendous fellow named ira hearne...........we butchered and cleaned pigs, cattle, chicken, and sheep, and we ate good meat at least once-a-day, 7 days a week.........we also had fish several times a month..........we had our fair share of granola, figpep, and other healthy grains and veggies, which i called "rabbit" or "bird" food.............there were plenty of burgers, pizza and sometimes even beer!!.......all the trustees and all the staff ate at least lunch together with the in-rez corps every day, and many times joined us for supper too, .....always in the brc basement, in which we all fit comfortably back then.........there were often bacon, homefries, and scrambled egg breakfasts, with real coffee and apple cider, etc.,......sometimes pancakes and syrup with fresh berries............and there were actually several meals we all looked forward to, like eileen's homemade enchiladas, dripping with cheese and stuffed to the hilt with chicken, or pork, or ground beef with terrific refried beans and sour cream!........and there were usually abundant seconds and thirds available..........the food was the same during our second year too, again all in the basement of the brc......... however, the food at emporia was horrendous from day one, when it opened for in-rez corps training in august, 1975.....people were literally made sick by that garbage they served.........it seemed the food never improved there during the entire time it was open!........initially, the food at both indiana campus and gunnison was comparable to what was served at hq when we ate in the brc.............once the osc dining room and kitchen opened for "business", the quality and volume of food served at hq depreciated noticably!........it was nowhere near what betty and eileen came up with, and the increase in the number of people eating at hq also took all the fun out of mealtimes.........oftentimes, i'd get in "trouble" at the various campuses for starting food fights or rebelling in other ways to the boring and unappetizing legalism of host and hostessing, singing really stupid songs, and other forms of religious tradition enforced by moynihan, jenkinson and others who were more budget concsious than people conscious at their respective campuses.............i really felt badly for you folks who were stuck at emporia for any length of time.........and, since i left in 1986, i am not at all familia® with how yukky the food got as the doofus from okie and his administration took everything to the negative and unhealthy extremes i read about here at the spot as reported by the twi gulag survivors!...........sure glad i was out before the physical food got as bad as the spiritual diet twi shoved down people's throats!................................peace.

hey dooj!....................don't make it bad......................LOL!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY WATERED GARDEN!......................best wishes for many more in health, strength, and peace.

yo, chas!!!..............totally kewl link!........i've created seven different stations so far, and i'm totally lovin' it!.......i enjoy entering seed artists and then seeing what they come up with......i've created the stations by artists i love sorted by similarities in their musical styles, instruments they play, city or country of origin, or "genres" not included in pandora's "genre stations"............i have to admit, i've stumped their search engine a couple of times, but it's been great fun putting together my stations and then listening to them!!.................thanks much for a really terrific "heads up"..............i've been lost in this site for six hours now!!!!..........good thing i don't have to share my puter with anyone else!!!!............LOL!.............THANKS AGAIN!......................peace.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, HAP!!!!.....................you may be an aries but you'll always be a feces, er 'skuse me, a pisces to me!..........wishing you another year of health joy, prosperity, and, of course.................................................peace.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GEORGIE!!!!!...................sorry i missed the actual holy-day itself, but i was dining with a couple of fellow greasespotters in the big apple, and arrived home after your origin day had passed!..............glad you had a good one, and i wish you many more in health and joy!................shine on, bro!

happy resurrection day to all you greasespotters who celebrate it!!!

hi fellow greasespotters!..........happy st. patrick's day! in response to groucho's question a few posts above, "what qualifies them to be 'christian leaders' "..............here's a few of those qualifications.......... Victor Wierwille Bio: Where I Came From: Niceville, Florida – I just graduated from the University of West Florida in Pensacola Why I’m a F.L.: I wanted to be involved and pushing forward in the things of God with people who are motivated and want to do the same thing – those are the people I wanted to be around. Coolest Part of Being Here: Being so involved with the members of the Body of Christ and seeing the Body operate the way it was designed to. Favorite Scripture: I John 3:20-22 – having confidence towards God, because when you have confidence, you’re not condemning yourself, you can receive from God – you’re not afraid to talk to Him. Music Style: Country, but mainly the more traditional country and Southern rock. On a Bad Day, I: Bar-B-Q. On a good day, I bar-b-q. It gets you just right. Ultimate Bar-B-Q Guests: Jesus Christ, my brother and my grandfather. What I Don’t Like: People picking on my friends. this is from the cff fellowlaborers link at the "official" cffm website..............as far as the kind of "in depth" biblical teaching s.o.w.e.r.s. volunteers can expect, here's an example of young victor's teaching ability........ http://www.fellowlaborers.org/2006/11/30/g...ctor-wierwille/ some excerpts from the above teaching exemplify the fine training in biblical exegesis that young victor will be "tapping into" in order to help his s.o.w.e.r.s. "aquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness"........... "Basically everyone wants to be righteous before God. Therefore, they try to work out their own righteousness and do works that make themselves look righteous. These actions include confessing sins and following the Ten Commandments. However, good works do not make a person righteous. Righteousness comes from God through the faith of Jesus Christ." "The righteousness of God is given to everyone who believes (every believer). It is not by the cross you bear, but by the cross that Christ bore for you."We were made the righteousness of God. Some people teach that you can be righteous one minute and then become unrighteous the next minute. This is not true. Once God makes you righteous, you are forever stamped “RIGHTEOUS.” You cannot earn it. God just made you that way when you received holy spirit. Praise God!" "The sin problem no longer exists. It was settled in Jesus Christ. Now it is only a matter of renewing the mind back to the truth. You no longer need to fear, worry, or feel unworthy! You can have that confidence that you are worthy through Christ Jesus!" so, for those of you "worried" that maybe the sins of the grandfather may be repeated by the grandson, fuhgetaboudit!!!............"THE SIN PROBLEN NO LONGER EXISTS"..............we've taken care of that for you folks!!!..........."No worry, fear, guilt, or any other lie from this world can defeat you because you know all these things were overcome by way of Jesus Christ and that you have been made righteous. When you realize this truth from God’s Word, you will then have confidence to “come boldly unto the throne of grace…” (Hebrews 4:16)."!!!............."worry, fear, guilt"..........why they're just "lie(s) from this world" and they exist only to "defeat you"............and, btw.........stop with those darn questions too, won't you??.......... in case we run into any "tough verses" or concepts, here's an example of the fine training cffm provides it's fellowlaborers in the "principles of biblical research"............ 2 Responses to “Gospel of Freedom and Deliverance - Victor Wierwille” Victor Says: March 11th, 2008 at 1:12 pm Hello and God bless you! Philippians 3:9 And be found in him [Christ] not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: In the latter part of the verse, what or whose faith is “by faith” referring to? Our faith/believing or the faith/believing of Jesus Christ? Thank you in advance for your help! Love in Christ, Victor Nathan Friedly Says: March 11th, 2008 at 9:10 pm Hi Victor! Off the top of my head I’d say that I think it is our faith/believing. I think that earlier in the verse “the faith of Christ” possibly refers to our faith that we have through Holy Spirit. that is to say, it’s the same faith that Jesus Christ. But like I said, that was top of my head and deserves more studying to be sure. nice to see our old friend nathan friedly is still an avid user of the internet!!..........guess the derailed thread he abandoned here at the greasespot is obviously not important in his scheme of things!!..........gotta keep those sowers current on the latest biblcal research "ditties" coming forth from the cffm vaults!! i hope this helps you all in your evaluation of whether or not you can move far enough out of your "comfort zone" and join up!!!!............hope this helps to answer your question groucho!!!...........sure answers some of mine!!!..........................................peace.

thanks hap, for reminding us of this "old friend"................i just could not resist posting on this thread!!..........it was my dad who first introduced me to this "peace sign", when i was just 8 years old, on new year's eve, 1959 turning to 1960..........he was an ardent pacifist, totally committed to nuclear disarmament, before i ever thought about being a "hippie", later in the sixties!!!..........he only ever had one credit card in his entire life, (he felt that credit cards were just the banking industry's "gimmick" to legitimize usury), which he did'nt get until 1968, when the group called "physicians against nuclear proliferation" sent him an application for their visa card, and he felt that if he was going to have to pay for a credit card, (they all charged "annual fees" back then), he might as well support a group which more closely matched his "conscientious objection" to nuclear war than the banks themselves did!.........anyway,.......on that new year's eve of 1959-60, he first showed me a picture of the new "peace sign"..........and let me "help him" tape it to the little bulletin board he had above his desk, in his little office in the back of our house in nyc.......it stayed on that bulletin board until i packed up that office in the fall of 1995, after he died, in order to sell that house i grew up in!.........almost 35 years!..........that little sign has always had big meaning and memories for me!..................thanks again for this thread hap!..................................PEACE.

ron!..............rotflmao!!!!!..............hope that gal never shows up door-to-door witnessing at my house!!........my doors could'nt take it!!!! ahhhh, yes, twinky!!!..........i'm sure as these wonderful "servants" "go forth in areas of concern, interest, and need", "leading tomorrow".............that the world will be a better place!!!!..........i think "food services" in darfur would be a great place to start!...............hard to miss the "revelation" on that, even for a wierwille!..............peace.

hiya abi!!!............happy 41st!!!..........hope you're not having sushi for birthday dinner!!!!!............hehehe!...............hope you're both enjoying your new rides, and your special day!.........many, many more!...................................peace.

the ces "version" is bullinger's........vic's "version" is lamsa................bullinger's is better, imho.......................peace.

thanks for your post, Ajern!..........the perspective you have to share is very important for those of us who had young children while in twi!.....i encourage you to keep posting so we can all learn that perspective from those who lived it!..fortunately, my oldest child was just six when i left in 1986, so my kids were spared from the madness of the doofus from okie!.......glad to here you're doing ok!...is that your wedding day on your avatar?...........also, i clicked the album cover at the bottom of your post, nothing there......is that music by a group you're a part of?............hope to see ya more often here at da spot!...........welcome!.................peace.

hello again, jonny lingo!..........again, i don't know who joey is, but since you quoted my post to you, and then asked me a question, i'll respond to you..........do you have difficulty referring to me as Don'tWorryBeHappy, or DWBH?.......just curious......... what was in vic's heart and mind before i had personal interactions with him (beginning in 1970 and continuing through to just a few days before he died of cancer in may, 1985)......is hard for me to honestly determine........the "events" he describes as occurring in 1942, which he referred to as the "founding" of his way ministry, are known to me only by what he says about them.....so, whether or not his descriptions of those events reflect a pure-hearted, young christian minister searching for god and his "true word" would only be a matter of my opinion............i did have access to his "personal library" during my in-residence corps years, which he granted me for reasons i do not know..........but, i read the works of rosalind rinker and e. stanley jones which were in that "personal library" of his, and which he had read himself prior to the events he recounts in 1942.........it was obvious to me, that both ms.rinker, and rev.jones, had a strong impact and influence on young vic, especially regarding personal prayer life.......but also with phrases like "the word of god is the will of god", (rosalind rinker wrote that in a pamphlet of her's that i read), "victorious living", and even "god's power to live abundantly" and "abundant living in christ" (e.stanley jones coined those phrases in the several books of his i read in that "personal library").....he was obviously impressed with rev.jones' accounts of his mission and ashram programs in india..........the lasting impact of these two influences is obvious in "works" vic would later call his own...........all i know about vic's being "led into speaking in tongues" by j.e.stiles, in tulsa,ok, 1951, is what he recounted at various sharings to the in-rez corps in '72, '73, and '74, and what he wrote in RTHST, and what is recorded in TW:LIL, and the pfal class, all of which occurred years after the actual event itself............i did read stiles' book on receiving holy spirit, which was also in that "personal library", and noticed immediately the close (literally word-for-word) "similarity to "the holy spirit book! especially after vic added bullinger's "the giver and his gifts" to the manuscript!..........i also read the syllabus vic had to b.g.leonard's "gifts of the spirit" class, which he first took in 1953..........again, the "definitions of the manifestations" almost verbatim repeated in vic's advanced class syllabus, along with the identical scripture references, and even the names "maggie muggins", and "johnny jump-up"!...........quite obvious the impact that class and syllabus had on young vic!! i also read the books by rufus mosely, glenn clark, albert cliffe, oral roberts and billy graham that were in that "personal library"............even giving oral book reports on a few of them to the in-rez corps during lunchtimes in the brc basement!...........these folks influenced vic during the post war years, 1946-1952........i read vic's pamphlet on "the dilemma of foreign missions in india", and mrs. wierwille's diary of their trip to india in 1955, (her diary that i saw consisted of both handwritten and typed entries she made during the trip.....quite interesting!)........there were also a number of correspondences between vic and his denominational leaders, written after vic's return from india, and including some of the accusations against him, which eventually led to his "separation" from the denomination......there were allegations of "financial improprieties", "deliberate misrepresentations", and even mysteriously veiled references to "personal misconduct" with his "church secretary", among the arguments over his "unofficial" trip to india!.........most intersting indeed....but, again, i was not personally present during any events prior to 1970............so, anything i would have to say about them would be in the category of "my opinion"..........also in that personal library were bullinger's "the church epistles", several volumes of bullinger's journal, "of things to come", bullinger's book on the book of revelation, "the just and the justifier", by charles welch, several volumes of welch's research journal, "the berean expositor", "the great cloud of witnesses", on the book of hebrews, and various other books that i did not read and other titles i do not remember........all-in-all, a vivid experience in reading for me as a 21 year old way corps "volunteer"! now, as to what "i have to say to that"..........it appeared to me, that during the decade of the 1940's, young vic was really worried about whether or not he had made the right choice by going "into the ministry".......he appears to me to have been genuinely searching for an answer to that nagging question,......those were the years he read e.stanley jones, rosalind rinker, glenn clark, rufus mosely, albert cliffe, oral roberts, billy graham, and various other christian authors, missionaries, theologians, philosophers.........it always intrigued me that vic dated the founding of twi as the 1942 "gas pumps revelation", followed closely by his first vesper chimes broadcast, which followed the "gas pumps" by only a few days or weeks.............i never understood the time lag of 11 to 15 years between the "founding" and the emergence of pfal into the form we came to know, which really did'nt happen until the late 50's and early 60's...........but, imo, the severe "corruption" began for vic in the fall of 1953, when he first taught b.g's. class on gifts of the spirit, calling it his own, by the second time he taught it himself in early 1954........later in 1954, after doc higgins intoduced vic to the works of e.w.bullinger, and vic "ran into" k.c. pillai, pfal began to morph into the class we all took in the 60's, 70's and 80's.....certainly, by the final days in the van wert church in 1956-1957, vic's "misbehavior", financially, sexually, and his unabashed "commitment" to the "fine art" of plagiarism in his academics and "biblical research", were firmly entrenched into his man-of-god persona, with the alcoholism pretty much in place by the mid-to-late 60's............please understand, that my opinions today reflect my entire twi experience, including the last 22 years of post-twi learning, re-examination, re-searching all the twi materials, and the works of those who had the greatest impact on vic's "spiritual developement"..............a long trip from those early in-rez daze, reading as much as i could during the times i had access to that "personal library"!.........i'm not that young, wide-eyed, idealistic, hippie i was back then, but i am surely thankful for all the good experiences i had during the years i spent in twi from 1970 to 1982.........the years from 1982-1988, were not nearly as much fun, but i sure learned alot, and i am truly happy with where my life is at today! so, jonny lingo............that's all i have to say about that!............................................peace.

hi again ham!.........i remember, during the "40th anniversary year", and oftentimes at various gatherings at new knoxville and gunnison, that vic had those special conclaves with and for the wierwille family..........he'd get them all together, you know, children and grandchildren, and pump 'em full of their "special" calling as the "man-o-gawd's bloodline family", and how their individual and collective stand on "the greatness of der verd" was of the utmost importance and significance to gawd!........i distinctly remember don answering one of my questions to him about one such meeting at gunnison, which took place while i was there teaching at a family camp, with, "just be thankful YOU were'nt born into this family!"!!.........LOL!........makes me laugh when i recall his facial expression and tone of voice while saying that!....... obviously, jp and sarah and their families were there too...........who knows what "legacies" vic was holding them accountable to produce for him?!!..........it appears that they both took them quite a bit more seriously, and far less cynically than don did!!..........the complexities and psychoemotional realities at play in identity formation are extremely powerful, overt and covert, even in "normal", functional families!.......one can only imagine the psychological, emotional, and "spiritual" forces at work in jp and sarah, both of whom were in crucial stages of their identity formation during those years of 1982-1985.........they were both "good people" as far as my interactions and dealings with them, both in my in-residence corps years at hq in the early 70's, and in the 80's when i lived at hq...........they never really tried to take advantage of their "first family" status while they were in-resident corps trainees, although there were some unavoidable "perks" which i'm sure they enjoyed.........but, there were also the unique pressures on them as vic's biological kids which no one else in the corps had to experience!! i'm not privvy to all they enjoyed, and/or endured during those special, "secret" wierwille family camps!.........and, believe me, i really am truly thankful that i was not "born into" that family, like don said!!!...........however, it is obvious that jp and sarah must have taken some, or maybe many, of the "special revelations" vic had for his "earthly" family seriously to heart, and incorporated them into their personal identity formation processes.........how that impacts their children will continue to unfold before us all who follow the developement of cff, the "ministry" the wierwille's seem to have hitched their family wagon to.......how it impacted them, (jp, sara and their spouses) is unfolding as we post!...........i can only say that i honestly hope they can avoid the horrible mistakes and illnesses that plagued their biological father!.......unfortunately, don could'nt and did'nt..........................................peace.

hiya jonny lingo!...........i don't know who "joey" is, but i'll take the liberty of speaking for myself...........the unfettered pureness of genuine christian "doctrine" has nothing to do with pfal, vic, the pope, or any denominational interference.......it is god's "responsibility" to honor his word, and therefore, if indeed, god's word is preached, whether in pretense or in truth and love, there will be the resultant "good fruit" promised by its author.........the responsibility of the preacher, teacher, minister or "leader", is to ensure that he does not pervert the message with his own beliefs, needs or desires, thereby reducing god's word to just another "doctrine of men".........that is where vic and his boyz completely missed and miss the boat!......they did the opposite, and those who continue in the "purity" of pfal doctrine will continue treading water in the sea of doubt, speculation, and fear that vic and twi incorporated into their own brand of "christian" religion. vic built his "ministry" on the genuine, loving, idealistic work of you folks who were "honest christians on the field"!......there was no genuine honesty coming from him.......it was folks like you and your wife, and many others, who honestly loved god, and were thrilled at the truth of jesus christ, and joyed at sharing that truth, trying to help people....that were the genuine godly backbone of twi..........as i said, god will not allow his word to fall flat......no matter where it is preached accurately in the love of christ.........and anyone who does so today or any day will see the fruit of that word as it takes root in "good ground" ..........so, jonny, i too believe that where god's word is preached and taught in honesty, love and with integrity........it will produce the results god promises........so preach on brother! as far as forgiving those who have yet to apologize to you, (and most likely never will)......forgive anyone you choose to, if that's what helps you "move on"......the only time i think about any of the liars and thieves who might owe me an apology is when i'm here at the greasespot, reading about some of their latest "achievements" for the lord!.........LOL!........i don't need to forgive them, since they are unrepentant, and don't want my forgiveness anyway..........why waste time casting my pearls before swine???...........nothing they have done or may still be doing affects me at all........"i be fine" too!......... but, since many persist in playing their "man-o-gawd" roles, and continue to teach their doctrines of men as if they were somehow "god-breathed", i continue to do my best to hold them accountable to "the word of god" they claim to believe and teach.....why?.....because there are many whom they have hurt who still suffer, and they are worthy of my support as a member in particular of that body of christ of which we are all members in particular!.......if they seek to glorify the alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, unrepentant serial sexual predator who "fathered" them in the word, and continue to try to whitewash his sepulchre, which is stained with the broken hearts, broken spirits and yes even the blood of so many of his "kids"....i'll continue to speak out about it!!............the truth only hurts those who stand in opposition to it, jonny!............imho......and, as long as twi and any of its splinters continue to promote vic and his bs, while ignoring the biblical commands that they repent for their wrongdoings, and lies, past and present, or, by fancy cover-ups and fair speeches try to deny their roots in vic's sickness-plagued, dysfunctional theology and the outright lies and evil practices of his "way ministry",......then i'll keep on typing and posting away here at the greasespot!.........as long as i'm here, they all know that there is at least one person left who knows firsthand how full of crap they were and are to this day!......and i'm certainly not shy about "sharing" those facts with anyone who wants or needs to know them! i enjoyed your post jonny!......you appear to be a genuinely good-hearted fellow............nice "chattin'" with ya here at the spot!..........................peace.

sorry for the techinical difficulties!...............so, there are the questions i asked of nathan friedly.........apparently, nathan has received some instruction from somewhere to not spend much more of his valuable cff "training" time answering any of these questions..........please note, that these are questions, some critical, but all honest..........they are not ad hominen attacks!...........apparently, the vic apologists find it necessary, in their "manic mission" of whiting vic's sepulchre, to post anything they can to direct attention away from these questions and the serious issues they raise...........so, i have taken a little time to try to uncover some of the "no link" facts nathan friedly can't seem to find or remember on his own, despite his loyal cff fellowlaborer access to the sources that could indeed supply many, if not all, of the answers to my questions as well as ham's! Please note: The views and/or opinions represented on these links do not necessarily reflect those of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry. Christian Web sites SowersOnline.com [NEW] Fellowlaborers With God Living Tree Academy Akribos Theological Fellowship and Seminary despite the conspicuous appearance of these website links on the cff official website, i'm fairly certain, that nathan would proudly and boldly state that there is "no link" between cff and any of them............and, by browsing those sites, it is indeed difficult to find many specific names mentioned that demonstrate the strong "link" between cff and those who are the leaders, owners, operators, or members of the various boards of directors, admissions, etc...........however, in spite of their attempts to cover-up the strong ties to cff, the content of these various websites which is "open" to public view makes the links quite obvious indeed!............take, for example, the Akribos site, which purports to offer bachelor of theology degrees to those who would be foolish enough to "enroll" in their "accredited" christian seminary............ Denominational Affiliation… We are a non-denominational seminary, which holds to the Word of God as the final authority on any matter of doctrine. What Makes Us Different... Akribos Theological Seminary is the only post- secondary educational institution that builds its curriculum upon the easily grasped and understood principles of Biblical Study and Research. Why Do I Need A Degree… No one necessarily needs a formal degree ... However, it has been the called, formally trained, and degreed men and women in the Body of Christ who have had the greatest impact in bringing the light of God's Word to the world. then, in large, blue, attractive script font, they add.........."TRAINING THE SERVANTS OF TODAY FOR LEADING TOMORROW"............servants?..........where do they find them?...........and, what will these humble "servants" be "leading tomorrow"??..........cff fellowlaborers??...........s.o.w.e.r.s.??..........."non-denominational mega-churches"?? when you try to find the names of the akribos board of directors or board of admissions or faculty...........YOU CAN'T!!..........they are not posted any where that the interested browser can access them..........you'll need "special" passwords or fonts to find out that information!........but, if you look at the "curriculum" akribos offers for its 2-calendar year "traditional; track" bachelor of thelogy degree, you will notice the course numbers and names..........."how to enjoy the bible", e.w. bullinger, along with bullinger's "witness of the stars", figures of speech used in the bible", and "the church epistles"........then, you'll find course descriptions for "the bible tells me so", "the new dynamic church", god's magnified word", "order my steps in thy word", "jesus christ our passover", "jesus christ our promised seed", etc., all without an author's name or the name of a faculty member!!..........seriously!!..........go check it out for yourself!!..........i'm not making this up!! if you really want to have some fun, check out the "accreditation" pedigree of akribos!...........looks like they're right up there with pike's peak seminary!!!.........and, the way college of emporia and the indiana campus!!..........this it just what the world needs, is it not??..........this is where i'd want my kids to get their education, so that they too can be "leading tomorrow"!!......... what a country!........i'm glad that our government allows the intellectually inept, yet spritually qualified "masses" the freedom to promote and participate in these kinds of "educational" institutions!........the mind boggles at the thought of what these highly trained and educated "servants of today" are going to be able to do for the future of christianity around the world!.........think of the thousands of young christian leaders that will "go forth in areas of concern, interest and need" to feed the poor, heal the sick and carry on in christ's stead!!............why, they'll be bigger than the mormons!!.........that's who they remind me of, although you'd have to reduce the numbers by millions as well as the dollars and amount of time actually spent feeding the poor, or helping in disaster relief projects around the world!! and, just like the mormons, the "leadership" of cff and their "links", will warn against the dangers we questioners pose to them!....they view all such questioners as "apostates", prejudiced critics, personal attackers, and perhaps, worst of all..........intellectuals.........who, by their constant questioning, cause the faithful to "doubt their testimony", and, because of their unbrididled, critical thinking, cause the otherwise faithful followers to "leave the faith"!...........after all, the "leaders" of any really "good" , fascist religious system must never be criticized, or held to account for anything they say or do by "revelation"...........allow me to quote dallin h. oaks, former president of BYU, and current member of the quorum of the 12 apostles of the mormon church: "I also said something else that has excited people: that it's wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true, because it diminishes their effectiveness as a servant of the Lord. One can work to correct them by some other means, but don't go about saying that they misbehaved when they were a youngster or whatever. Well, of course, that sounds like religious censorship also"............really??............"religious censorship", eh?........"even if the criticism is true"??..........yup........exactly what it takes to protect your religion and it's leaders from the facts they themselves have produced!! ..........hey, why not?.......works for them!.........worked for vic too!........the doofus from okie tried it too! but, "unfortunately" for martindale and twi, the doofus just did not have enough "natural leadership ability" to pull it off!! about 16 years ago, boyd h. packer, president of the quorum of the 12 apostles of the mormon church, procalimed from his "watchman's tower" to the world, that the three greatest dangers facing the mormon church and it's continued growth, are "gays/lesbians, feminists and intellectuals"........right about the same time the doofus from okie began his march into the "promised land of the present truth, behind the walls of zion", with the "god-commanded" "homo purge"!........ vic, several times, during "lunch-time sharings" to the in-residence corps during 1972-74, praised joseph smith and brigham young and the mormons, for the way they built and ran their church!.......of course, they were totally devoid of any "doctrinal truths", but they sure "knew how to take care of their own"!!........he admired the way they "handled their finances", and amassed their "great financial fortune".......he wondered if we "corps kids" would show the same strength and determination the mormons did in the face of persecution!.......would we be willing and able to "march across the country, barefooted, pulling those damn carts" if that's what it took to "stand and move the word"??...........would we??.........guess not!..........martindale admired the "practical abilities" of the mormons too.........but, again, his abject lack of "natural leadership ability" combined with that famous neanderthaal intellectual capacity of his, proved to be too little too late to save his sorry "ministry"............and, "rev" wayne clapp and the other cff "leaders" were right there helping him, and carrying out his orders........and, despite their best efforts to establish the "no link" to twi mentality required to be a part of their church, they still carry vic's, lcm's and twi's baggage with them to this day.........but, they lack the honesty and courage to "stand by their man" publically, and "officially" like the mormons do for joseph smith and brigham young........... so, ham............"here we go again"??............not as long as there's a greasespot cafe that provides a forum for us questioners to ask our questions!!.............their refusal to honestly and openly answer those questions says more about them and their church than all the denials and cover-ups they employ in their attempt to establish their own identity...........like their "father in the word", they are whited sepulchres, broken cisterns which can hold no genuine "water of life"!.............paraphrasing my pal al here..........they are the embodiment of insanity, repeating the same twi formulas over and over again, expecting different results!..........proving that old adage, ya can't get good fruit from a rotten tree!..........................................peace.

hi ham!.........thanks for this thread. i don't mean to "barge in", however, the vic apologeia twig has successfully derailed the "note on forgiving thread", started, and "abandoned" by nathan friedly, where my various questions to him were basically ignored........so, like i said in one of my posts on that thread, i've decided to post them again on this thread, where i can't be accused of "derailing" the topic. i hope you don't mind. nathan friedly is a faithful, and apparently "successful" cff fellowlaborer..........young victor paul wierwille, vic's grandson. is a "graduate" of the cff fellowlaborers program......on his blog page at the cff fellowlaborers website, he (v2p2), states that his "ultimate bar-b-q guests would be jesus christ, his brother, and his grandfather"..........another point which would tend to disprove nathan's blatantly false assertion, that there is "no link" between cff and twi, as he posted in his last post to date on the thead he started last december.........i would like to take the space here to re-post the questions i asked nathan on that thread he started, and has yet to answer honestly. i believe these questions are indeed relevant to your thread here.........i don't know if there will be any honest answers in response, but it's worth a shot........we'll see how long it takes for the vic apologeia twig to show up here and post their usual garbage in yet another attempt to obfuscate the issues raised by the questions............ "you mentioned that you are in CFF's "fellowlabourers program", which you describe as a "leadersip training program"........i'm wondering, when it comes to "forgiving", i am interested to know if CFF teaches anything about the unique and specific responsibilities of "leaders" in the church of the body of christ, when it comes to their practical application of the doctrines and "processes" of forgiving and forgiveness?..........from my limited understanding of the christian scriptures, it seems that there are demands made of "leaders" in the church regarding such things as repentance for wrongs committed by them towards the believers in their church, which are additional requirements for "leaders" in order to enjoy the forgiveness from the believers who have been wronged, for the wrongs committed against them...........are there??...........i notice that you mention rev. wayne clapp (his name is on the link you provided on the "packages" thread), and quote rev. john nessle..........under whose auspices were these CFF leaders ordained?........do they have formal seminary training or credentials from an accredited christian college or seminary?.......do they have formal training in biblical exegesis, or textual criticism?........do they have formal training in greek, hebrew, aramaic or latin?.........are they thus qualified to provide you "fellowlabourers" with "the true and accurate word" in your leadership training? ......what formal, professional training do they have in christian ministry or counselling?.........do they ahere to the "principles of biblical research" as taught in and by the way international?........were they "leaders" in TWI??..........if so, have they apologized to the believers they may have wronged during their time as TWI leaders?.........do they need to?..........did they teach you "fellowlabourers" to "lump loving and forgiving in together" as you stated you do?......... if so, what is their scriptural basis for this "lumping together"?..........or is this just something you have developed on your own?" "okay..........so that's it? there is "no link" between twi and cff according to nathan friedly?..........i knew both john shroyer and wayne clapp during my time in twi.........i was their "boss" in twi's leadership structure for several years........during my years in twi, i never knew of anything willfully wrong or immoral perpetrated against any "believers" by either of these men........my personal interactions with both john and wayne were positive and amicable to the best of my recollection...........but, to say there is "no link" between cff and twi is grossly inaccurate, and at best misleading..........at worst..........a blatant lie!" "why do these people "deserve" a "free pass" from their personal history of a "sold-out committment" to vic and the dancing prez and twi??..........because they were relatively "nice guys" during twi's reign of terror from 1989 to 1998?.........both knew enough of vic's "extra-curricular" activities back in the late 80's...........still they stubbornly clung to twi despite the debacle of pop and it's vicious aftermath..........they knew about the lies, the sexual and financial misconduct, the defamation of those who were speaking out about what really went on "behind the scenes" at hq and around the world..........yet, they chose to stick with the liars and the thieves!..........why??" "when king okie's loyalty letter went out in march of 1989, both shroyer and clapp willfully chose to "stand" with martindale against geer, and all the rest of the "cop-outs"..........they rose to positions of leadership prominience in the early and mid-1990's.........during a time when king okie pushed twi into the horrors of the "prevailing word in the promised land of the present truth".........which included the infamous "homo purge", absolutely no debt, and the glorious practice of marking and avoiding hapless believers while the dancing prez and his boyz were sexin' it up with any women in the kingdom they desired and badmouthing the rest of the world!.........wayne clapp was running the family corps at rome city for several of those years!.......he was one of martindale's staunchest supporters!........how many humans did he and fern "help" at the behest of martindale? or moynihan?...........how many orders did wayne faithfully carry out which inflicted serious spiritual and psychoemotional harm upon human beings??..........how many lies about former leaders in twi did the clapps joyully pass along to twi followers?.........how many people have they sought out to apologize to for their shameful actions??" "cff is as much wierwille's "fruit" as twi is!......they are, perhaps, more "loyal" to the doctrines and beliefs of vic than any other splinter group around with the exception of the geer cult!........the validity of the "spiritual credentials" of the leaders of cff is totally dependent upon acceptance of vic's teachings and almost all of twi's doctrine.........their structure is simply a "lite" version of the way tree..............we live in the united states of america, and cff has every right to exist, and teach whatever it wants.........but, it is also the right of those of us americans who choose not to accept cff's beliefs, to expect that cff speak the truth when it comes to their origins in twi, and their personal adherence to the theology of vic, and their version of vic's way ministry!.........imho, cff and vic are haplessly and hopelessly intertwined, and, in the long run, their spritual DNA will bear it's identifying fruit!............another one will bite the dust!..........why do the offshoots all expend so much effort in avoiding their deep entanglement in the life and teachings of vic and twi? what is it they are trying to hide?..........what connections are they trying to downplay?.......and, is lying the proper christian response to honest questions such as these?" "albert einstein said, "we can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."..........all the offshoots of twi,.... ALL OF THEM!..........presuppose that the basic thelogy of vic's pfal series, is, or contains, or promotes, or delivers, or teaches the rightly divided word of god...........ALL OF THEM get their basic beliefs and doctrines from vic and his same "sources".........bg leonard, je stiles, ew bullinger, ew kenyon, rufus mosely, glenn clark, albert cliffe, rosalind rinker, e. stanley jones, and various other ministries they've hooked themselves up with through the last 20 years..........NONE OF THEM have taken the time to fully, exhaustively and objectively review the thinking which led these men to build and push their "ministries" to the world!.........they have simply adopted their own version or forms of vic's "original" thinking about god and the bible, and, either have gone on to evolve their own doctrines and classes and churches and fellowships, and whatever!, or, they have "ministries" which seek to "carry on" in the footsteps of the mogfot without "the legalism", or without "hurting people"!...................unless there is a a "new kind of thinking" about god and the bible, an entirely new consciousness of god in the hearts and minds of these "leaders", their "ministries" are doomed to produce the same fruit and accomplish the same end as vic's!................another einstein quote fits here nicely..........."learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. the important thing is not to stop questioning!".........." "one more thing.............it is still my opinion, as it was in my first post here at the greasespot in september of 2007, that all the leaders of all the twi offshoots everywhere here in the USA, are as guilty as twi regarding their whitewashing of the life and "ministry" of victor paul wierwille and his way ministry!..........as long as they persist in carrying on in his teachings, doctrines and mannerisms, they are guilty of supporting and promoting the teachings and lifestyle of a narcissistic, sociopathic, alcoholic, serial sexual predator, who plundered his way through his little corner of god's people in the name of the accuracy and integrity of god's word!........that's my opinion, for what it's worth!...............guess who.........."in matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems, for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.".............................peace". "Sweet Pea..............who's in charge of "cutting a break"?..........no one "cut me a break" when i resigned from twi in the fall of 1986........at that time, much of the information about vic, lcm, and their sexual and fiduciary misconduct was available to clapp and the rest of twi's leaders......and, much, much more has been brought to light in the 22 years since!......yet, clapp chose to stand with and for twi during the years following POP through march of 1989........during those years, clapp chose to ignore or deny the facts brought to light concerning vic, the doofus from okie, and twi doctrines and practices........why??........that's almost 3 years of faithful support until the "pledge of allegiance letter" of march,1989 sent out by king okie and twi!.......why, in 1989, did clapp pledge his loyalty to the doofus from okie and twi despite the ever-growing volume of facts documenting lcm's gross misconduct and moral terpitude??.........this is a simple question, not an accusation!.......how was it that clapp was able to become martindale's "biblical research" confidant/advisor during the time in twi which produced such twisted, perverted doctrines and practices as the infamous "homo purge", absolutely "no debt", and the oh so godly "mark and avoid" fiascos?..........how could clapp support, reconcile and promote such utter perversions of christianity with the christian scriptures??....how was he able to faithfully and loyally carry out orders from martindale, or moynihan, and others, with a "clean conscience" during those years of 1989 through 1997?............when clapp finally left twi and ran to cff, what were the reasons/issues which prompted his departure after "going along" with king okie and da boyz in da hoods since pledging his allegiance to them in 1989?" "you said, "these guys only want to continue in the ministry as their vocation without going the mainstream religion route that some of our other twi people have done. i have more respect for these guys than the other ex-Wayy Corps who are teaching crap just to make a buck."......really??...........i sure don't!........what "ministry" do they seek to "continue in" as their "vocation"?........what gives them this "vocation", or the right to continue in it without question?.......has there been any critical or objective examination of the thinking that created the problems of "the ministry" that clapp quit, and yet wants to "continue in"?........or, are they just re-packaging vic's products and re-marketing them to twi refugees?.........talk about "teaching crap just to make a buck"!...........you wrote, "cut them a break like you've been cut also"........did i miss something here?.........who "cut me a break"?..........when i left twi, in 1986, i did my best to speak the truth and facts about what was going on "behind the scenes " at twi..........i sought out those to whom i felt i owed any apologies, asked their forgiveness, and tried to hold twi's "feet to the fire" for a year and a half.........i re-examined everything vic taught and plagiarized so as not to repeat the same twisted thinking that hooked me in twi, brought twi down, and harmed so many human beings.........i felt then, and still do now, that this was my moral and christian responsibilty to god and his children........clapp, cff, and the other offshoots of twi want to "continue in the ministry" of vic and twi without taking any "time off" for objective examination of the thinking and doctrines of either!.....is that "cutting them a break"?..............when i left twi, i went back to school, changed "vocations", learned a new profession, and have been working full-time in the real world for the last 20 years.........something hundreds of other ex-way corps grads have done during those same 20 years!........i'm more than willing to cut clapp and the rest the same "break"............but, for some reason, they can't "cut it"........hence, my questions to them all as raised in the other paragraphs of my last post here besides just the last one!" so, there they are...............any answers from those who have them??............sorry about the font!............don't know how that happened, but, i'll end this post here for right now, and start the next one with more readable type, i hope!!..........................................peace.

EXCIE!!!!!!...............thanks so very much for your last three posts on this thread!!.............thank you for not deleting them, despite the enormous personal pain and risk!.......thank you for having the raw courage to be unselfishly honest, and telling it like it was and like it is!!...........i prayerfully hope you don't have to spend one second being "sorry" for speaking the truth in love here to all your fellow greasespotters..........i believe the "moral majority" here at the spot is with you 100%!!......i know your honesty has helped many who suffer in silence, and that posts like those last three of your's will help those who yet suffer, and those who have yet to summon up the strength to take their broken wings and learn to fly.............like that other song says............"all your life, you were only waiting for this moment to be free"....... as your brother in christ, i love to watch you fly!!!!............fly on you fragile, yet free bird!............FLY ON!!!...............................LOVE TO YOU, AND.............PEACE.

hey you kwazy skwewwil!..........you said: Maybe he mistook intimidation for fear. "For years, I was afraid.. of people in high social circles, high political circles.." perhaps he felt that he was out-classed.. still some second rate bumpkin from a little place in a cornfield in the middle of nowhere.. why else would he want the prestige that holding a doctorate purchased from a degree mill would bring him from the unwary? vic was a terrific "C" student at mission house college in sheboygan, wi..........his "god-breathed" writings were nothing more than hyper-edited transcripts of his live teachings from various classes or sunday night services.....which were based on his finest "academic achievements" of blatant, unabashed plagiarism of folks like b.g. leonard, e.w. bullinger, j.e.stiles, e.stanley jones, rufus mosely, glenn clark, rosalind rinker, e.w.kenyon, charles welch, and others.........his "abilities" in koine greek were limited at best, hebrew/aramaic virtually non-existent, and his politics taught that "hitler was right" and, that the united states "fought on the wrong side in WWII"!!!.......the only way he could attain his "doctorate" was exactly the way he did it............to buy it from a degree mill, pike's peak seminary in colorado..........he never could have gotten it the old-fashioned way, by earning it from an accredited, legitimate university, or school of theology or divinity!........he was'nt really "afraid" of those many folks who were legitimately more qualified in every category of "being a minister/clergyman" than he was........he was embarrassed and ashamed....because deep down in what was left of his "conscience" before it was "seared with a hot iron", he was well aware of his 8th grade intellect , and it's severe limitations, as well as his general incompetence at true christian ministry, and his total academic dishonesty and abject lack of genuine "biblical research" ability........pay no attention to the men and women behind the curtain!! "you just quit yakkin' about anything else! you know what killed that little boy.......", the car that hit him on that rural road that he was trying to cross at the wrong -place and wrong time!............it had nothing to do with either "minister's" prayer, faith or sermons!.............nor with any so-called "law of believing" in reverse or any other direction!...............................................peace.