DontWorryBeHappy

wonderful post dmiller!....thanks!..............music is the universal language of the human soul..........a much more true and peaceful product of teamwork and cooperation than athletic competition, imho!.............great post!........................peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnDrbagYm24&NR=1# !

yeehaw!, niKa!.............welcome home mr. niKa!..........sure glad for all of you to be back under the same roof once again!.........enjoyed that southern cross incident!.........glad you get to enjoy your familial completeness again!...............rock on!......................peace.

wow EXCIE!...........you sure get around!!............hehehe............so that was you too??............loved it! here's my "signature song" here at the greasespot...........not posted before...........dedicated to all my fellow greasespotters out there!................peace. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTGOr8A46_g#

sowwy, EXCIE!..........at least i can scream bon jovi tunes, so, thankfully, i'm not "killing you sofltly" with my songs!...........great version of joizy girl you posted by tom waits!..........he is always so intense!...........so, it's YOU, eh?...........kewl!..........immortalized in song you are!...........and, rightfully so!

hi waysider!.........LOL!............nope.........no specific dedications to those songs, other than to jon and richie!.........seems those songs are necessarily left open to be dedicated by millions of folks to the other millions that come to their minds when they hear those tunes! EXCIE!............seeing me do kareoke is not too strange.........but when (or, more appropriately, 1F) i "dance" it registers on the richter scale and i'm flooded with calls from local airport control towers, asking what the hell that "strange" blip on their radar screens was!!!.................LOL!...................love youse guys!..............peace.

the only written record i ever saw of the trip to india that vic recounts in plaf was the diary/journal dotsie kept on that trip. the one i saw was a mix of handwritten and typed journal entries, and did not appear to be complete...........it included the "teaching" at the Jaine convention, and the exorcism of the little old lady, but, i do not recall any journal entries about the man at the train station in jabulpuhr(sp?)..........it may have been there, but, as i said, the material i saw did not appear complete. included in that journal i saw was a paper copy of vic's "the dilemma of foreign missions in india"............the little "report" he wrote for his denomination back in the 50's...........it was his response to the severe criticism he received from his denominational hierarchy regarding the "trouble" he caused while in india...............peace.

the WORD...............

sorry gang!..........one more crusin', screamin', sing-a-long!.........great kareoke tune!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GccfzxHIXaY...feature=related# HIYA EXCIE!............yup..........all by myself..........besides the 80,000 fans at the meadowlands screamin' along with me!........LOL!

sorry.....seems ya can't have one without the other!........a true, big-hair rock classic (imho)! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k99h5aikc4g#

last summer, i was cruisin' down the nj turnpike, windows open, listening to live 8 live on my xm radio, screamin' out this song at the top of my lungs and havin' a total blast!........just heard it on the radio and had to try and recapture it for my pals here on the song of the moment thread!......... #

hi there fellow greasespotters!...........since this thread seems to have a life of its own, i thought i'd like to set the record straight by correcting the poster who complained on post #670 of this thread that it was i who was among the first to derail it..........it was this very same poster who brought up nathan friedly's participation in a fellowlaborers program run by cff, and nathan's "membership" in cff just a few posts before my first post on this thread (post#37 on page 2).......as a result of nathan's reply to that poster's suggestion that nathan is indeed a faithful follower of cff, i posted the following........ Hi there Nathan Friedly!........welcome to the greasespot cafe!........you seem like a very nice young man........thank you for your posts here.......i hope you'll stick around long enough to enjoy some of the many varying theological cusines that our menu has to offer!......i particularly enjoy our house special reality brew.......i find it stimulating and really an "eye-opener" on those hard-to-get-out-of -the-bed-you've-made-for-yourself days!.........i hope you will too....... your topic here, "A note on forgiving", caught my attention today!..........it has been a topic of particular practical import and impact for many of us who frequent this place.........maybe, as you've "read around" here, you've come across some threads that delve into this same topic?.........if not, check them out........you may find them of interest and/or value....... your posts on this thread, and on the "tightly wrapped packages" thread, have stirred up some questions in me that i'd like to ask you.......it would be really loving of you to answer them if and when you get a chance.........you mention "the word" many times.........for example,......."god's word", "the true and accurate word", "the accurate word", "speaking the word", "the truth of god's word", etc.,..........what are you referring to when you refer to "the word"??.........what is "the word" in CFF?........ you mentioned that you are in CFF's "fellowlabourers program", which you describe as a "leadersip training program"........i'm wondering, when it comes to "forgiving", i am interested to know if CFF teaches anything about the unique and specific responsibilities of "leaders" in the church of the body of christ, when it comes to their practical application of the doctrines and "processes" of forgiving and forgiveness?..........from my limited understanding of the christian scriptures, it seems that there are demands made of "leaders" in the church regarding such things as repentance for wrongs committed by them towards the believers in their church, which are additional requirements for "leaders" in order to enjoy the forgiveness from the believers who have been wronged, for the wrongs committed against them...........are there??...........i notice that you mention rev. wayne clapp (his name is on the link you provided on the "packages" thread), and quote rev. john nessle..........under whose auspices were these CFF leaders ordained?........do they have formal seminary training or credentials from an accredited christian college or seminary?.......do they have formal training in biblical exegesis, or textual criticism?........do they have formal training in greek, hebrew, aramaic or latin?.........are they thus qualified to provide you "fellowlabourers" with "the true and accurate word" in your leadership training? ......what formal, professional training do they have in christian ministry or counselling?.........do they adhere to the "principles of biblical research" as taught in and by the way international?........were they "leaders" in TWI??..........if so, have they apologized to the believers they may have wronged during their time as TWI leaders?.........do they need to?..........did they teach you "fellowlabourers" to "lump loving and forgiving in together" as you stated you do?......... if so, what is their scriptural basis for this "lumping together"?..........or is this just something you have developed on your own? you stated that you never considered CFF to be a TWI OFFSHOOT...........but, since visiting the greasespot, you may now consider CFF to indeed be an OFFSHOOT of TWI.......because, as you said, "i guess we do have a lot of the old way folks in our group"...........may i offer my opinion that, it is not WHO is in your group which makes it a TWI OFFSHOOT, but rather, WHAT is taught and promulgated by CFF leaders, which makes it an OFFSHOOT of TWI........what do you think?........also, the "original manuscript" of about 70% of the content of the PFAL BOOK that you say you're trying to get a copy of can be found in E.W. Bullinger's book "HOW TO ENJOY THE BIBLE"........which, imho, is a more expertly and finely written book, authored by an eminently more qualified scholar than vp!.........i'm pretty sure your dad has a copy lying around somewhere........or if not,.........surely your CFF bookstore or library will have one.......check it out, nathan.....it really is a much better read! i sure hope you don't get defensive from this "barrage" of questions!.........please don't, or you'll miss the point of my asking them..........hope you won't mind doing the work it may take to answer these questions..........i really do appreciate you taking the time to think about them and answer them.......it should provide a good learning opportunity for both of us, don't you think??........thanks again for this thread , and your posts!.........nice meeting you here at the greasespot......come and sit a spell..........enjoy our reality brew!.........the first cup's on me!!..........................peace. This post has been edited by Don'tWorryBeHappy: Dec 14 2007, 10:51 PM so, there it is!..........now all of you readers can judge for yourselves whether or not i need more "reproof" from you for derailing this thread........i eagerly await such reproof from those who deem it necessary based on the "record" this thread itself provides!..........nathan answered one question, and lied in answer to one other, when he stated that there is "no link" between twi and cff.......the rest of my questions to him were never answered, and remain unanswered to this date! my quetions concerning the topic of forgiveness were totally ignored by nathan, as well as by the vic apologists who are the posters most responsible for the numerous "derails" since i first asked those questions on post #37.........the author of post #670 continues to amaze me with his persistence at derailing this thread with posts that can only be described as firsthand evidence that he is firmly committed to self-righteously, arrogantly and condescendingly remaining "stuck on stupid"!.........his many derailing questions have been anwsered repeatedly, in many different ways, by many posters on this thread, yet he apparently is unable to simply, objectively read what has been written here!..........perhaps a course in remedial reading would be helpful, along with some tips on improving one's memory! the questions regarding forgiveness of vic, lcm, cff leaders, are all part of the consistent efforts of the vic apologists to keep this thread (or any thread, for that matter) focused on what THEY want, not whatever the topic of the thead may be.........they insist upon demanding that there is some "biblical", or "scriptural" truth that somehow requires all extwi folks to forgive the aforementioned "leaders" for their "crimes and misdemeanors" against the body of christ!.......with acute faithfulness to the techniques of private interpretation of the scriptures they seem to have adopted completely from vic, they take entire sections of scripture from all over the bible, and attempt to prove their false premises, assumptions , and interpretations as being somehow "true" to "the word"...........and then point their smug, self-righteous fingers accusingly at those who have the god-given right, according to those same scriptures, to demand and expect an apology from those "leaders", as well as expecting that those same "leaders" conform to the numerous scriptures addressed specifically to real "leaders" in the chuirch, as recorded in the so-called pastoral epistles of timothy, titus and philemon!.....somehow, in their promulgation of vic and his twisted theology, they completely avoid or ignore these pastoral epistles, which are chock-full of specific commands and requirements of "leaders", and "elders", and "bishops", etc., that are above and beyond those of your "average believer" in the body of christ!......these pastoral epistles fully deal with all the smokescreen questions that vic apologists throw out around here, while totally ignoring what is clearly written in those pastoral epistles which answers the very questions they ask!!.............it gets to the point where jesus' teaching regarding "casting pearls before swine" is the only way one can justify responding to anything the vic apologists post! let me quote a few things from the corps notes section of the waydale documents archive on the greasespot homepage.........these are from the corps meeting notes of september 28, 1994 Leah Martindale is not allowed alone with a boy during the ROA; not allowed on certain parts of the grounds; not allowed to go somewhere that they don't know where she is. Found 14 more homos. Still happening--still confronting. About 10% of those who were going out WOW were homos.Believing Principles of a Christian Family Bottom line is children obey your parents in the Lord. Protect the household. It's the spirits that are evil. Any Corps who go back in debt after getting out of debt should be DFAC. It's got to be spirit influenced! Change a bad habit by intense daily concentration and effort. Kick your own butt to don't mindlessly fall back into those areas. Help each other stay sharp. Jesus Christ is the true shepherd in Ezekiel. If people don't want help, why waste time on them. Forgiveness is for those who want forgiveness. Jeremiah 9:6 False ministry. Whole households and fellowships we could just shut off if they don't stand with us. Spirit is thicker than blood. Word stands when you mean business. Plenty of men and women stood against their children (or parents.) They should have remorse and want to correct it. 1 Timothy 4:1 "In the latter times" is now and since the day of Pentecost. [some things God revealed to VPW on the night he first S.I.T. One of them was that it would never get so dark that only one person stands.] Why: Giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It's the reason anyone leaves. i suggest you read the whole thing if you want more "context" concerning the above excerpts.......although, the doofus from okie's "teaching style" does not really lend itself much to establishing any context to his "revelatory rants"!.........but, i particularly want to direct your attention to the following, "if people don't want help, why waste time on them? FORGIVENESS IS FOR THOSE WHO WANT FORGIVENESS"!........"THEY SHOULD HAVE REMORSE AND WANT TO CORRECT IT"......vic nor king okie obviously never wanted or needed our "help", or "forgiveness".......that's why i've never "wasted time on them" by forgiving them!.........and, since any who chose to leave twi and all its false teachings and evil practicies did so by "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It's THE reason anyone leaves."!...........no room is ever left for open, honest discussion, because all those who left "should have remorse and want to correct" all the reasons we left!.......should vic or king okie have remorse and want to correct their "crimes and misdemeanors"??........did they have any "bad habits" they needed to "change by intense daily concentration and effort"??............of course not........in their minds they never did anything wrong......they had no "bad habits"........it's only all those possessed "cop-outs" that left who need to do things like change bad habits!!! in closing, permit me to once again quote my pal, al: "most people say that it is the intellect which makes a great scientist. they are wrong! it is character."........and, from martin luther king jr., " i look forward to the day when my children will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character"..........i judge vic, lcm, twi, ces, cff, word promotions, et al, not by the "color" of their websites, teachings, or programs, but rather by the content of their "christian" character, as demonstrated by their consistent actions and practices, past and PRESENT!..........which actions and practices have been "weighed in the balances, and found wanting" according to the very "word of god" they claim to be standing on!...................i apologize for the "derail"!!...............................peace.

beloved brother roy!...............totally ROTFLMAO!!!!!................thanks for that link!...............one of the funniest things i've seen in a while!................with a holy peace sign flashing your way!

(((((DOT!!))))).................happy birthday!.........got back from a great "reunion" with some folks from counselling services of ohio, late last night........so, i missed the day!.............keep on truckin' baby!..........you're still YOUNG and, the best years of your life are not behind you, but are yet to come!...........peace.

hello all you lovely ladies!........to quote bramble!......."have they made any processes for handling greivances or issues with leaders? Is it always the leader's word against yours?".......WHO KNOWS??..........i say that because just like "rev"clapp told nathan friedly that there is "no link" between cff and twi, all the splinter group "leaders" work double-overtime and utilize doulbe and triple talk to totally "free themselves" of their connection at the hip to vic and twi!........ever notice that??.......ALL OF THEM!.......you never hear them brag about what corps they graduated from, or about what year they were "ordained" by twi, or by whom!......rood, schoenheit, clapp, nessle, seed, carr, burke, finnegan, and the list goes on and on.........check out their websites......check out their CV'S (resumes) as our friend twinky would call them......ever see vic or twi mentioned???...........and, the vast majority of these wonderful "christian leaders" have a twi past just as dirty as vic's.....and every one of them knows the facts about their father-in-the-word's extra-curricular ministering activities, the booze, and the rest of vic's "wonderful works of god".........most of them were owned lock, stock and barrel by twi's company store!...and, the underpinnings of all their great doctrinal and practical truth are laced with vic's deadly mog stew!......that's one of my major beefs with ALL of them......a bunch of chicken poop pimps, faithfully carrying on the ministry of their father in the word!!.....bastard sons all of them...........rascal has 'em all nailed.......men of the flesh..........liars........chief painters of the whited sepulchre himself who lies in his grave built with the abs of the faithful under that stupid fountain!............ok......that's the end of that rant.........felt good though...........thanks for that question bramble!............peace.

hi fellow greasespotters!...........i'm preparing for an eagerly anticipated reunion of sorts with a couple of old friends from counselling services of ohio......a project we participated in together over 20 years ago!...........it's late, i'm tired, and work looms ever closer at 0645 this morning........so please excuse another probably too lengthy post! mike...........the originator of this thread, nathan friedly, a cff fellowlaborer, did hear my questions, but has chosen to answer only 2 so far........and, his second answer was just a blatant lie(perhaps unintentional)............."no link"...........he stated in his last post of 12/27/07, that he will "pop in" here sporadically.........my questions concerning cff and its leadership remain unanswered, in spite of the fact that i have been "unusually" patient "about getting answers"!.......at the risk of seeming to you to be "unusually impatient at times about getting answers", i'd like to point out that you still have not answered T-Bone's requests for 5 "explanations", 1 "identification", and 1 "demonstration", as listed in his post #423 on this thread........nor my questions to you on post #425, nor a number of specific questions asked by brideofjc............you may have answered some of ham's questions, and maybe doojable's.............but i'm not really sure. to answer your question to me in your post #446, .........i never had any "problen" with 1cor3:17, that required "reconciling" "back in the good old days", and i have even less of a need for doing so today. your "assumption" that the pfal book and "the collaterals" are "god-breathed" is the major "problen" i have with attempting to engage you in meaningful dialogue regarding the realities of vic's teachings, and their practical application in his "ministry" to twi followers. "assumptions" imply a willingness to pose further questions in order to determine the veracity of that which is assumed.........as you probably know, asumptions are the building blocks of hypotheses, not the proof of them. when you make statements like, "i'm not looking to prove that pfal is god-breathed; i am now at the point that i assume it's god-breathed. the proof took place decades ago and is done.".........you are unintentionally confusing the building blocks of your "pfal hypothesis" with the "proof" thereof, imho. your "assumption" that the pfal book and "the collaterals" are "god-breathed" is not an "assumption", but, rather, it is your firmly held belief, your irrefutable conviction...........please don't "assume" that i'm just "nit-picking" semantics with you......that is not at all what i'm trying to do here........i am simply stating, in order to clarify for myself, and perhaps other readers, what you are telling us........i am not asking you to recount or elaborate upon "the proof", which, for you, "took place decades ago and is done", because i am "assuming" that this was a detailed and lengthy personal process which you have probably explained here at the greasespot in some of your many previous posts. as you well know, i do not share your "assumptions", nor your firm belief, or irrefutable conviction that pfal is "god-breathed". i too have gone through a detailed, lengthy process of "re-searching" and re-examining the scriptures, vic's written works, those of vic's "teachers" (bullinger, leonard, stiles, welch, kenyon, lamsa, clark, mosely, roberts, rinker, et al), as well as numerous theologians, philosophers, scientists, and other "critical thinkers", and yet, i have arrived at a point directly opposite from you regarding the "god-breathed" staus of vic's written works. the "method" i try to use is one capsulized in a quote of one of my favorite "critical thinkers", albert einstein, "learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. the important thing is not to stop questioning."...........you have the absolute right, imho, to believe or "assume" whatever you choose to.... so do i......i do not have the right to demand that you believe as i do, nor do you have the right to demand from me that i believe as you do.......we have the right to disagree..........perhaps we both feel that, indeed, we each have the responsibility to voice those disagreements, and, if so,.....we can both be thankful that the greasespot cafe and its "management" provides us a public forum in which we can do so through civil discourse.......twi, cff, ces/stf, word promotions, and the rest of their ilk do not have the intellectual honesty, nor the moral courage to allow any such discussion or dissent at all!! i "assume" pfal to be as "god-breathed" as the book of mormon, the roman catholic catechism, the excathedra proclamations of the roman catholic popes.....(sorry excie!!....did'nt mean to use your name in vain!.....hehehe)....the writings of martin luther, the wesley brothers, charles russell, mary baker eddy, john knox, john calvin, joseph smith, brigham young, martin luther king jr., mohandas k. gandhi, buddha, mohammad, malcolm x, bruce metzger, f.f. bruce, noam chomsky, joseph campbell, bertrand russell, albert einstein, stephen hawking, carl sagan, j.r. tolkien, walt disney, steven spielberg and the beatles!..............and many others you or anyone else wants to add to that brief list (i stopped to save a little bandwidth, not to slight anyone!.......lol).........in that glorious day, when we will know god even as we are known by him.......then we will know for sure, once and for all eternity, what was written by the finger or the breath of god, and what was not!.......OH HAPPY DAY!!! i suppose i'll ask my questions of cff and "rev" clapp on ham's "here we go again" thread.........maybe they'll be more "on topic" over there..........in the meantime......i'd like to close this post with an observation.........again, just my opinion..........i thought mike's post #499 on this "long and winding thread", was the most clear, honest, compassionate and reality-based post he's made of all the posts of his i've read!.......i sincerely hope, mike, that you fully appreciate and remember how you came up with that post, and rejoice at the response it evoked from the rascal you addressed it to!....................peace.

hi tonto!........great seein' ya here!..........so.......this is your favorite thread?............gawd!!!.............i can't bear the thought of reading 333 pages of posts to see why!!!!...........LOL!..............however, knowing you, i just may have to start reading!..........but, for now, i'll stick with enjoying NIKA's vivid reports on what sounds like a truly unforgettable family vacation! NIKA...........thanks again for these posts!.......i totally understand you're not being able to share more about your hubby's work.........but, i remain excited about what he is accomplishing, and i'm looking forward to the time when you'll be able to share more about it...........thanks again!....................peace.

i know i was'nt in the ninth, so forgive my barging in to your turf............but, lovely NIKA..........i loved your post here about your trip to new zealand!........thanks for sharing.........i have vivid images in my mind........and.......as the Strange One said.........i too hope you have some more to share with us!......i am also very interested in hearing a bit more of how MR. NIKA'S research is going........a truly exciting work he's involved in!.........thanks again for a really great post!........welcome home!......and............peace.

hey there birthday boy!..........with all the great HD video gear and big screen tv's available these days, i rarely waste the money and go thru the hassle of "going to the movies" any more.............but, typically, guys like spielberg, scorcese, eastwood, and a few others, do make it worhtwhile spending the $25 it costs to see something on the "big screen"!..........looks like this will be the first one i'll go see since "the departed" and the last remake of "king kong"...........thanks for the heads-up!

YO.........MIKE!............don't feel badly that ham has not yet answered your question from your post #419 on page 21 of this thread........or, your post #421 on page 22 of this thread.............i asked a number of questions of the poster who started this thread in my post #37 on page 2 of this thread.........got no answers yet!!..........as a matter of fact, all i got was a blatant lie.........."no link".........from nathan friedly's last post on this thread!..........so, in my post #72 on page 4 of this thread, i asked a bunch more questions........to this date, after over 350 more posts to this thread......i still have not gotten an answer to any of those questions!...........so, in my post #84 on page 5 of this thread, i asked some more questions...........to date, still no answers to any of them!...............so, in my post #200 on page 10 of this thread, i asked some more of the same questions.......to date, still no answers to any of them!............so,.......here we are on page 22 of this thread, some 200 plus posts since my last post, and, still.......not one answer to any of my questions!!............you're doing great so far with getting answers to your questions.........but you have not answered those posed to you by T-Bone and others just a page or two ago..........so........here's a couple more for ya......... when jesus christ returns, with pfal book in hand (as you've taught us he will)......will the "standard" by which we will be held accountable for "every word" we speak be according to pfal?........what "word" or words will jesus christ use to judge us by?..........is jesus christ done "working and studying" pfal yet?..........is he using your tapes and transcripts, or just what twi published under vic's name?.............feel free to take another couple of hundred posts to answer my questions if you need to........but, please answer T-Bone's and Doojable's and Ham's first!..................thanks!...............peace.

happy birthday to you kit!..............may you enjoy many more in health and strength and joy!...................peace.

hey GT!!............happy birthday young man!...........thanks for all you've done to make this a jazzy lookin' place and a message board that provides so many cool and fun things to do!.......hope you have a really good year of health, happiness and prosperity!....................peace.

hi linda z!........only "eight-cow men" experience PMS!.....................just like an "eight-cow woman"!.........................peace.

hi T-Bone!..........thanks for your last couple of posts!...........very interesting and powerful points and observations, imho!..............good sources you quote also.......i find your posts to be well constructed and thought through........with an incisive wit and thought-provoking...........you encourage critical thinking with a warm, empathetic understanding for the "bottom-line" common human condition!.........i appreciate your taking the time to provide us with thoughful, articulate posts!.........please keep 'em coming! jeff scio............i appreciate your consistent even-handedness in communicating with us greasespotters!.......your determination to seek peaceful and mutually respectful dialogue here in the about the way forum while striving to keep an "open mind" and a patient objectivity, is also appreciated!..........i too would enjoy an answer or 2 to my questions as posted, clarified and reiterated on this thread!...........................peace.

hi all you greasespotters!.......it is interesting to note, that a few posters on this thread do not address any of the questions raised in my last post on this thread other than those they themselves infer from the last paragraph of that post! why do some folks become so alarmed and disturbed at the appearance of any post which accurately describes or recounts vic's ministry, and/or his extracurricular activities as our "father in the word'??......i have observed less passionate appeals for mercy for convicted murderers on death row than some of the emotionally charged pleas for us to "forgive" vic posted here!.....and, yes!..........this comparison is just as valid as the ones made here that we are somehow "bound by scripture" to forgive vic just like jesus christ forgave those who "know not what they do" during his crucifixion! Sweet Pea..............who's in charge of "cutting a break"?..........no one "cut me a break" when i resigned from twi in the fall of 1986........at that time, much of the information about vic, lcm, and their sexual and fiduciary misconduct was available to clapp and the rest of twi's leaders......and, much, much more has been brought to light in the 22 years since!......yet, clapp chose to stand with and for twi during the years following POP through march of 1989........during those years, clapp chose to ignore or deny the facts brought to light concerning vic, the doofus from okie, and twi doctrines and practices........why??........that's almost 3 years of faithful support until the "pledge of allegiance letter" of march,1989 sent out by king okie and twi!.......why, in 1989, did clapp pledge his loyalty to the doofus from okie and twi despite the ever-growing volume of facts documenting lcm's gross misconduct and moral terpitude??.........this is a simple question, not an accusation!.......how was it that clapp was able to become martindale's "biblical research" confidant/advisor during the time in twi which produced such twisted, perverted doctrines and practices as the infamous "homo purge", absolutely "no debt", and the oh so godly "mark and avoid" fiascos?..........how could clapp support, reconcile and promote such utter perversions of christianity with the christian scriptures??....how was he able to faithfully and loyally carry out orders from martindale, or moynihan, and others, with a "clean conscience" during those years of 1989 through 1997?............when clapp finally left twi and ran to cff, what were the reasons/issues which prompted his departure after "going along" with king okie and da boyz in da hoods since pledging his allegiance to them in 1989? you said, "these guys only want to continue in the ministry as their vocation without going the mainstream religion route that some of our other twi people have done. i have more respect for these guys than the other ex-Wayy Corps who are teaching crap just to make a buck."......really??...........i sure don't!........what "ministry" do they seek to "continue in" as their "vocation"?........what gives them this "vocation", or the right to continue in it without question?.......has there been any critical or objective examination of the thinking that created the problems of "the ministry" that clapp quit, and yet wants to "continue in"?........or, are they just re-packaging vic's products and re-marketing them to twi refugees?.........talk about "teaching crap just to make a buck"!...........you wrote, "cut them a break like you've been cut also"........did i miss something here?.........who "cut me a break"?..........when i left twi, in 1986, i did my best to speak the truth and facts about what was going on "behind the scenes " at twi..........i sought out those to whom i felt i owed any apologies, asked their forgiveness, and tried to hold twi's "feet to the fire" for a year and a half.........i re-examined everything vic taught and plagiarized so as not to repeat the same twisted thinking that hooked me in twi, brought twi down, and harmed so many human beings.........i felt then, and still do now, that this was my moral and christian responsibilty to god and his children........clapp, cff, and the other offshoots of twi want to "continue in the ministry" of vic and twi without taking any "time off" for objective examination of the thinking and doctrines of either!.....is that "cutting them a break"?..............when i left twi, i went back to school, changed "vocations", learned a new profession, and have been working full-time in the real world for the last 20 years.........something hundreds of other ex-way corps grads have done during those same 20 years!........i'm more than willing to cut clapp and the rest the same "break"............but, for some reason, they can't "cut it"........hence, my questions to them all as raised in the other paragraphs of my last post here besides just the last one! and oldiesman becomes indignant at another poster when he states, "you're telling me what *i* saw?".........yet, on this very same thread, he presumes to tell the greasespot readers what my "outlook" on vic was when i resigned from twi 22 years ago!........how can he do that?......is he god almighty?........i can assure you all that oldiesman has NEVER talked with me regarding what my "outlook of dr. wierwille" was 22 years ago then, or at any time since!......his post is rife with inaccuracies and misinformation.......disinformation too!..........i resigned from twi in the late fall of 1986, and "announced" my resignation right then and there, not in some letter written months after the fact!.........sue pierce was also a signatory to that letter........why is that fact omitted?.....both sue pierce and robert belt resigned from twi in 1986, well before that letter was written.......they did not "announce " their resignations in that letter either!........tom reahard was still a "leader" in twi when that letter was written......he did not announce his resignation in that letter either..........john and pat lynn were both full-time employees of twi as limb coordinators when that letter was written.......they never resigned from twi.......they were fired by howard allen on april 1,1987, one of the "rersults" for them for participating in the writing of that letter! now oldiesman is going to tell you all how and why that letter was written, 21 years later, as if he was there!......he does not know who wrote what parts of that letter.....he never participated in any of the deliberations or discussions surrounding its writing......and, he has no inkling of an idea of the what, why, where, when and how of its composition!........yet, he is somehow able to interperet for you all, the nuances of that letter which he has already inaccurately described, and totally misinformed you about!.......and, somehow, this letter of 21 years ago is relevant to my post about clapp and cff??.........oldiesman is completely ignorant about how and why that letter was written, let alone what the "outlook of dr.wierwille" was in the minds of those who wrote it!.........and, once again, what is that letter's relevance to my post?? in conclusion, i'd like to quote my friend al one more time, "whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods"...........thanks to you posters on this thread who keep those "gods" laughing!.........................peace.