DontWorryBeHappy

hiya cynic!.............of all the ordinations i witnessed, or was a part of, there were only two which i remember, where, during the "prophecy" over the individuals, mention of "new light" and its delivery or presentation to our "generation" was made.......both were graduates of the 2nd corps......lonnell johnson, and gerald wrenn...........there may well have been others, but i was not present for any but these two........................peace.

hi all you greasespotters!.............interesting question fooledagain!............i can answer it from my personal experience with twi ordinatiuons as they "progressed" from the fall of 1970 until i left in the winter of 1986.............might help answer your questions up to that point........... when i first got involved in twi, there were no twi clergy at all in the way east, which was overseen by steve heefner. a former disc jockey, steve was among the first folks recruited during vic's "research" trip to san francisco, to what was known as the house of acts, a "jesus freak" ministry started by jim doop, and steve heefner, among others, in the bay artea of california...............several of those folks attended "summer school" at twi hq in ohio iduring the summer of 1969, and went back to california and founded the way west, headquartered in mill valley, ca.............there was a huge "revival" in california that those folks got going that fall of 1969, which continued through at least 1974..........it was folks who got involved with twi in ca, and simultaneously, in wichita, ks, under the "ministry" of donnie fugit, who came back to westchester county in ny, and nassau and suffolk counties which comprise long island, in ny in the summer of 1970........... steve heefner came to rye, ny in the fall of 1970 to set up and coordinate what was rapidly developing into the way east, the ny counterpart to the way west, which steve had started with jimmy doop in ca a year earlier........the first way corps of 9 people, also started at summer school of 1970............from the fall of 1970, through probably 1975 or 76, there was also a tremendous "revival" in the way east which spread throughout all of new york and new england, nj and pa.......... the first twi ordinations i witnessed were in november, 1971, when, at a sunday night service, steve heefner, john lynn, and bob moynihan were ordained by vic in the old brc.........ordination in twi at that time, was all done by vic himself, and involved a short little "ceremony", which vic put together, which culminated with his "laying on of hands" upon the head and/or shoulders of the "candidate", who was kneeling before vic and god, then, "bringing forth a word of prophecy" over the candidate while his hands were "laid on him"..............which laying on of hands, we were told, was strictly "by revelation" from god to vic.............these "prophecies" were given "by revelation", not "inspiration", as were the "normal manifestation of prophecy".........during this "prophecy by revelation", we listened closely to hear which "gift ministry" or "ministries" of the five listed in ephesians, were mentioned or "alluded to" in the words of the "prophecy" spoken over each individual candidate by vic..........this was how all in the church were to learn which "gift ministry(ies)" were to be operated by the newly ordained clergyman for the edification of the body of the church...............after the prophecy was given, the new clergy took the "salt covenant", administered to them by vic, to "seal and salt" the "vows" each new clergyman had taken before god and vic, to be a "faithful minister" to the church for life.......this particular ordination service went out as the usual, weekly sns tape........then coffee, cookies, and a "receiving line" of sorts, where the newly ordained clergy would "meet 'n' greet" the congregants, and receive congratulations, etc.............these folks were not corps grads, since there were'nt any yet...........the ordination "service" itself was handled by vic only during those days.........and, it was accepted that the "public" service was really only a "confirmation" of what god had already "ordained" in the lives of those so recognized, and it was assumed that every ordination was "done by revelation" to the mog from god for the body of the church as well as each individual who was ordained...........it was always considered to be a "spiritually heavy" occurrence, and the attitude was one of somber reverence for the candidate especially, as well as for vic........the only "pre-requisite" for ordination at that time was the "revelation" to vic from god to do it.........that was it! the next ordinations i witnessed were also in the brc at hq, when the first corps graduated in august, 1972............they were done exactly the same way as i described above........i think that nancy duncan was the only woman ordained at that time, ......the rest vwere all the guys........randy anderson, earl burton, gary curtis, del duncan, bo reahard, and mike smith..........there was no such thing as corps week back then, so, these were done at a separate "service" after the first corps graduation itself............then, on to the rock '72! then, when the second corps graduated in august of 1973, the same was done for them,...............i do not recall which women were ordained at that time, but it was only a few, and i think all the men were ordained.............again, one-at-a-time as described above, each one having vic lay his hands on them individually while "prophesying" over each one individually.........then, salt covenant, as a group,......then, onto roa '73, followed by my first year of in-rez corps "training"....................then, when the third corps graduated, the same "routine", with one major change.............not every male in the third corps was "invited" to be ordained..............which was the first time that occurred..............meaning that, even though they all graduated, obviously not every one had gift ministries according to the "revelation" given vic by god..............this was a noteable difference, and set the stage for what was to become the hierarchical, caste system among the way corps, and eventually the rest of twi.............it was now quite clear, that just because you graduated from the corps, it did not necessarily follow that you had "gift ministries", at the time of graduation, or that you would be ordained prior to "hitting the field"............again, to me, a major change vic pulled off in order to increase corps enrollment, as well as to keep the ordination thing as exclusive as possible despite the growing numbers of corps members in each successive way corps "class". during my first in-rez year, '73-'74, it was decided that there would be, for the first time, an "interim" or "practicum year" added to the corps training, which up until then had been two consecutive years in-rez, followed by graduation...........since we were the first to "volunteer" for this, the fourth corps was given the option of doing both in-rez years consecutively, then an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" or on staff somewhere, or, to take the second year of the three as an interim/practicum year "on-the-field" somewhere or on staff, and then return in august, 1975, for our final in-rez year at hq...........of course, this meant we had to "make arrangements" for another full year of "corps sponsorship" among our sponsors, who had "signed on" for two years only when we first started, or scrounge up new sponsors.........either way, the money had to be there! when the fouth corps graduated in august, 1976, for the first time, there were no ordinations of any of the new corps grads...........another significant change vic slipped in...........the first 4th corps ordinations took place after pfal 77, and after the rock '77................they were still performed only by vic himself, in the same manner described above, only they were done away from hq, at the end of the "weekend-in-the-word" events held in the 7 official regions of the way of the usa at that time, during the corps meetings that were held on the sunday evenings of those weekends after all the "believers" had departed for home.................i was ordained on 10/16/1977, in the blackstone hotel, on michigan ave., in chicago............this was considered an especially poignant event, because it was this same blackstone hotel in chicago, on michigan ave., where vic supposedly "practiced" the revelation manifestations, where, as he recounted in most advanced classes, god showed him who was born again or not by revealing to him a "white heart" in those who were christians, and a "black heart" in those who were not born again, or who were "possessed by devil spirits"!.............my ordination was done in the same manner described above, where i kneeled before vic, and he "laid his hands" on my head and shoulders, prophesied "by revelation" over me, and then, had me stand, while he went on to the next "candidate"...............ordained with me that night were wayne merrill, steve sann, and ken standage..............each as described above.............and then we all took the salt covenant together............vic had each of our prophecies taped for us so we could listen later, to hear which "gift ministries" we each had, and were supposed to faithfully "operate" for the rest of our lives!................there were still no corps weeks at this time.............and, vic still personally "handled" every ordination that was done here in the USA. the 5th corps was the first to all do their interim year during the second year of the now three-year corps program, and then return for their final in-rez year at the emporia campus............the sixth corps was the first one to be centered at emporia for both in-rez years, with various "blocks" of time spent at hq and the indiana campus with the family corps...............and, the 6th was the first large group of well over 300 corps "volunteers"..........i think the first corps week was in 1979, IIRC............someone correct me if i'm wrong..............by then there were 8 regions in the usa, and, after august, 1982 there were 10.............during the "40th anniversary year" of 1981-82, ordinations took place at the end of various of the "anniversary weekends" which were staged in the 8 different regions that year.........much in the same way they were done after the weekends in the word during '77-'78...............by "invitation only" from vic, and officiated by vic................it may have been at the corps week in 1982, where, for the first time, candidates for ordination were "nominated" by the limb and region leadership "on-the-field", and by the various president's cabinet members at hq, and the "executive committee" at each "root locale".........the "nominated candidates" were "screened/reviewed" by the heads of each of the various "leadership" groups, and final decisions were made after the bot, along with those who participated in the annual "corps placement meetings", discussed each indiuvidual who was nominated, and if there was indeed, a genuine "need" in the church body served by that individual for an ordained clergyperson.............once those decisions were reached, the "nominees" were officially "invited" to be ordained, and, for the first time, vic was not to be personally involved with the "laying on of hands and prophecy" of each individual..............rather, each individual was instructed to "prayerfully consider" which previously ordained clergyperson was to "officiate" over the individual's ordination, to be held simultaneously, as a group, in the main tent on the "corps night" of that week...............a major change from vic doing each ordination himself!.........this presumed that each "candidate" trusted the individual clergyperson he/she chose to "get the revelation" regarding the presence or non-presence of "gift ministry(ies)", and get it right!.........major decentalization here!.........after the "laying on of hands and prophecy", the salt covenat was administered simultaneously to all who had "made their vows"........this is pretty much the way ordination in twi was handled from then on, until i resigned "my commission" in 1986.................although this process never precluded vic from ordaining anyone he chose, or anyone "god told him to" ordain, any time or any where he wanted to................ whatever happened after december,1986 concerning ordination in twi, i have no clue.............but, i'm sure it never got any "better"!!..........hope that answers your questions..............if not, feel free to ask more................................peace.

sounds good to me paw!...........i'll be there, cyber-savvy naivete permitting!......i've never done it before but will be more than happy to participate!..............thanks!

A La!!!................HAPPY BIRHTDAY TO THE ROCKIN' ARCADIAN QUEEN!..............best wishes for many more in health, strength and plenty of good music!!.............and of course, peace!

hi all you fellow greasespotters!.............it's been awhile since i've posted here in the ces forum..............but, this topic caught my attention, since i spent a good deal of time trying to get answers from john s. john l, the greaser's, jeff blackburn, and anyone else in the ces/stfi "leadership" group, several of whom have posted here at the spot...........as part of my efforts, i spoke with john schoenheit on the phone a couple of times in late november and december of 2007, and reported back here some of the responses i got from my personal conversations with some of the ces/stfi bod members, because none of them chose to post for themselves here in the forum set up just for them, since they had long ago shut down a similar discussion forum at their own websites...........i feel that some further info i received from my phone conversations with john s. last fall is appropriate for this thread........... first of all, let me state that i have known john s. since 1974, when we were both with twi in north carolina..........i was on my interim year of the corps "training", and john was a college student at nc state, raleigh, where he ran a college wow way home, IIRC.......our interpersonal contact was not frequent during the years 1974 through 1986, but there were many occasions when we "ran into each other" as faculty members at various "root locales", and several times during research team meetings during the writing of jcop, jcops, and other reaearch dept. activities at which we were both present............in the fall of 1986, we were both at hq, and i may have inadvertently contributed to john's ignominious "firing" from twi research staff, because i circulated his adultery paper among those who, it turned out, had a viciously tenacious agenda of totally silencing discussion of the "material" contained in that simple little paper for reasons now, hopefully, well-known to those of us who have frequented the greasespot during the last 8 years....... i concur with those who have posted on this thread concerning john's genuine christian character, and his personal, "moral compass".........i have never known john to be other than described above by tzaia, wrdsandwrks, dmiller, catcup, billy d., and batcave...............and, when he was unjustly and cruelly fired on the grounds of the adultery paper in 1986, i fought hard on his behalf to have that decision overturned and to have not only john, but anyone else who was "punished" for "promoting" the adultery paper, promptly and unconditionally re-instated to their previous twi "positions"...........to no avail.............culminating in my own resignation from twi staff in december, 1986, for reasons which included the brutal mishandling of all those who were attacked and punished due to their "involvement" with that paper...........i ran into john at mark car**li's "fellowship" in troy, oh, in the winter of 1987, where i had been invited to sp[eak, and we spent a few hours discussing all that had transpired earlier that previous fall..........and, again in charlotte, nc, where i had also been invited to speak several times during 1987 and '88.........it is interesting to me, that john is among the very few "leaders" of any post-twi "ministry", whose personal character, and morality cannot be honestly impugned because of behavior or actions on his part...........a sad testament to the fact that so many others in similar positions of "leadership" in twi and/or its various offshoots, cannot stand up to the same kind of scrutiny when it comes to their own personal "walk of faith"! my questions about john do not concern his character, nor his personal and interpersonal morality............rather, i find myself "forced" to question his "spiritual" and intellectual judgement through these past 22 years of his post-twi history............why?...........because, as a ces/stfi bod member since 1988, and its current president, john has been prominently involved in the development of ces doctrine and practice from its infancy to its current status as one of the larger twi offshoots still "moving the word" among a church still comprised mostly of twi refugees..........a ministry which, imho, continues to promote a large percentage of the same spurious, pseudo-christian doctrines/practices which vic inveigled deeply into the "god consciousness" of all those who attempt to present it in their own "kinder, gentler, ministries"...........having started out by proclaiming vic was "wrong" about adultery, as well as a list of 26 other "differences" ces claims for itself, from pfal and other twi "standards", john has overseen the evolution of his "ministry" to the point where, today, he agrees wholeheartedly with his fellow ces former prez, john lynn, that, indeed, vic himself would be "very proud" of what they're doing!!.............viva la revolucion!!! among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!! having been a member of the founding bod of ces, i remember quite distinctly how much jalvis insisted upon bringing john s., and the graeser's onto the ces bod in 1988.........it was a hotly debated issue back then, and, when jalvis finally got his way, several founding bod members promptly resigned............at that time, there was major disagreement about the promotion of and participation in the momentus "training" by ces "members"...........sue pie**rce, robert be**lt, tom rea**hard, and ralph dubof**sky, all founding bod members refused to participate in momentus and its promotion, and none of them ever did........but, john s. and the graeser's did, and still proclaim its "benefits" to this day, despite a less-than-gleaming track record of ces involvement with that "christianized" EST type scam!......john s.'s doctrinal "vetting" of momentus helped its promotion and validated the inculcation of momentus terminolgy and practices into the daily activities and speech of ces/stfi itself, where they remain to this day!.......i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind these facts, then and now........ then there's the entire "personal prophecy" fiasco!..............the insanity of this spurious malpractice of "christanity", along with its concommitant spiritual abuse, was once again vetted for ces by john s. repeatedly, eventually becoming "institutionalized" into ces/stfi with the publication and sale of their "research" manifesto on the topic.............a publication which ces/stfi and its current president still proudly stand by and promote as "truth"!..........there are literally hundreds of posts, scattered throughout this ces forum, which document the insane progression of this "truth" from its genesis with ces involvement with florida church international (?), and greg pharis(sp?) all the way through the departure from ces of its second prez and his wife along with the resner's...........the sordid "secret" details of this aberrant practice, and it's viciously destructive impact on ces bod members themselves, and their families, are also posted all over this ces forum!.........i absolutely question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who stubbornly adhere to and promote this foolish doctrine and practice as somehow being "biblically accurate"!!............ i also must question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of any person who,,,,,,,,, despite numerous "moral failures" on the part of the two previous ces/stfi presidents, despite numerous accounts from former followers of various "hurts and abuses" suffered by them at the hands of ces "leadership", doctrines and practices, even after many dollars and hours spent by those same followers in the "pursuit of godliness" as defined by ces/stfi........still determines that, continued loyalty to the teachings and practices which comprise the total ces/stfi "package" is somehow "right with god, the father of jesus christ"!!...........not only that, but such loyalty is supposedly based on "the rightly divided accuracy of god's word"??..............according to whom??? john schoenheit is, by all accounts, "a really good guy", and, he is a really good "bible teacher"............he's honest and forthright about what he believes and why he believes it.............he does'nt "come accross" as some ego-tripping ex-twi "leader"..........he seems "down-to-earth", and approachable.............he does nice weddings for folks...........and he enjoys the "seclusion" of camp vision, and hunting and fishing.............he loves "working the word", and he believes he is carrying on in vic's stead to research and teach the word, "as it has'nt been known since the first century".........and, he believes vic himself would be "very proud" of what he's done and continues to do...........and, he believes it's "god's will" for him to be financially and materially supported by "god's people" in the body of christ who choose to do so............and, he's a citizen and resident of the USA, which allows him the freedom to believe and teach whatever he wants, and to earn his living by doing so.......and, it gives him the right to do all these things in a free and open society, with freedom of religion and expression................thank god!.................it also allows me the freedom to express my questions regarding the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind his choices, and to make my own choices as to what i believe about his "ministry" and its teachings and practices.................to each his own........................peace.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DOGLOVER...............YOU SOUTHERN SWEETHEART YOU!.......best wishes for many more happy birthdays in health, joy and................peace.

hearty congratulations, stephen!!...........and you too mom!............i only made it as far as brown belt, with one black stripe......in our system, there were 3 black stripes on your brown belt needed before you could test for your black.....3 brown stripes on your green belt before you could test for brown........took me 4 & 1/2 years to get that far, and that was 20 years ago!..........6 & 1/2 years represents over a third of your life.....that represents a whole heckuva lot of good life lessons learned, earned, and become!! thanks for posting that great pic, rascal!.........what a crew!..........the family that trains together..........................love that pic!.........................peace.

happy 47th birthday rascal!....you rascal you!..............keep on keepin' on, girl...............and, best wishes for many more in health, joy, and..............peace!

hi all you greasespotters!................. "There is NO word in any of the Greek texts for gifts in v1, however there is in v4 - which is the Greek word 'charismata', and there it is translated as gifts. This is hardly a "minor point" - especially when anyone can see it is a case where the same word (i.e. gifts) appears in English in both v1 and in v4, but in the the original it is a case where the word exists and where it doesn't. This is NOT a MINOR POINT at all!"............. "but in the original"?????...............wtf wth???.............."THE ORIGINAL" WHAT???............the hey.............................peace.

happy 53rd birthday, mstar!.............you're right........it was just yesterday we were 18!.........may i suggest bryan adams' philosophy on aging gracefully?..............."i'm gonna be 18 'til i die"!.................glad you enjoyed your day!.........peace.

hiya ham!......still no answers, eh?............. "Add to that the loose back door affiliation with cff.. somehow they consider the little cardboard website deserving of a link on their website.. and the boy has special privileges at richeson's site.." care to explain that last line a little further for those of us who don't go there?..........just curious...........................peace.

my-oh-my, bride!............you li'l ol' hippie feminist you!!!..................LOL!................kidding of course!..thanks for a fun, memory-filled trip down classics lane!.......that was a fun ride!...........peace.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY jonny lingo!..............best wishes for many more in health, strength, and joy!.........................peace.

hi penworks, and all you other greasespotters who've posted on this very intersting thread!.........indeed, an absolutely crucial question, the asking of which is equally crucial to undoing the answer vic eagerly supplied, and drilled so deeply into our consciousness of "things spiritual"!......... "what is 'THE WORD' " is the first question one must ask of any one who purports to "believe" that this "word" MUST BE one's "ONLY RULE for faith and practice"......the first question to anyone who claims to be able to "rightly divide" that "word", and then to "teach it" as it has "not been known since the first century"!.....the answer to that first question determines the entire context and framework within which any serious discussion can ensue..........vic demanded that any who would "dare" to discuss "THE WORD" with him, accept the same presumptions as he himself had regarding the answer to "what is THE WORD"?.............for vic, and therefore for all of twi, the answer to "what does 'all scripture' refer to was..........the king james version of the bible, both old and new testaments, with the canon as accepted therein, with the accompanying hebrew massoretic texts of the OT, along with the Septuagint Greek text of the OT, and the various critical greek texts of the NT, as well as whatever greek manuscripts and fragments of the NT extant, and the lamsa bible with his pedangta estrangelo aramaic text thereof, as well as lamsa's underlying understanding of and methodology in translating from "the aramaic" into 20th century english according to "biblical useage"!............penworks..............please correct me if i'm in error here.....you were there.....you know! but....that's just the beginning.........the real "word" in twi was what vic said it was..........and all the stuff i just listed above is there so vic could "prove" that all that which he said was "god-breathed" and all that he "just knew had to be there 'in the original' " was indeed, there!......and therefore, it all was true!.......that, IN FACT, is what vic's answer to what "scripture" refers to was!......imho...............it is this series of presumptions which must be unquestioningly accepted and adhered to if one is to be able to "receive the greatness of 'THE WORD' "........it is also this very same series of presumptions to which "the founder of the first twi offshoot", as well as its current president, subscribe.........just as they wholeheartedly did while in twi..........they have never stopped doing so..............which is why they are convinced vic himself would be so "very proud" of what their "ministry" is teaching and doing to move "THE WORD"! for me, personally, "THE WORD", is jesus christ................"scipture", as referred to in IIpeter, is one way by which we can learn about jesus christ, who, the gospel of john says, IS "THE WORD".......much more than merely the bible in the flesh!.........it always struck me as odd, that twi proclaimed that, of all god's "works", the greatest was "his word".......and, that god "restricted" or "limited", or "confined" himself to the "written word" as defined by vic above, in his dealings with humankind.......how clever to imply that an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and infinite being would be foolish enough to attempt the impossible when expending his/her "best effort" at communicating truth and reality to the most important beings in his creation!.........clever indeed!...........because now, god and his word are in vic's court!............and, we've got all the resesarch principles and manuscripts to prove it!!.............we can now define "THE WORD" "with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision"!...........as it has not been known since the first century!.......... god teaches vic, vic "proves it", and then vic teaches us!.............substitute whichever mog floats your spiritual boat!!................or your offshoot! penworks and others have provided a very good bibliography of works by various authors, which will increase our understanding of what "scripture"refers to......there are many others, to be sure,......but, at least the few mentioned are a start!................and, besides, the worst reading them might do, is at least raise your "comfort level" in asking the question, and inspire your determination in pursuing some answers other than vic's!........thereby expanding your understanding of "scripture", and your consciousness of "things spiritual". again, for me, personally, it is absurd to either want or try to limit god to anything!............let alone a group of collected writings spanning thousands of years of human existence, written by human beings "as they were moved by the spirit of god", living in completely different cultures, economies, geographical locations, with varying degrees of literacy and intellect........a collection of writings, whose claim of "divine inspiration" has been believed by just as many human beings as those who have chosen to believe different writings by different humans who also claim "divine inspiration".....................i believe, that in order to more fully understand jesus christ, beyond the teachings of twi, one must strive to develope an entirely different "god-consciousness" from that which was imparted to us by vic during our years of believing in, and working for twi!.........only then, as i have posted in various threads here at the spot before, can the mental and "spiritual" prisons built by twi theology and practices, be unlocked........allowing genuine, unfettered, "pursuit of godliness" by those previously chained to vic's flawed, error-ridden, and perverse consciousness of god!............................................peace.

hi fellas!..wow!...thanks for a very poignant reminder!......i was on campus at queens college when we heard about the guard shooting the 4 at ksu!.......we immediately organized and started a huge rally in the commons designed to " mobilize to off the pigs" who perpetrated this act of government terrorism!.......within 2hours we had 1500 demonstrators goin' until they called in about 500 nyc tpf police........tpf=tactical patrol force.....the same force that busted us a year earlier when we were holding the administration building hostage as the "ad hoc committee to end political suppression at Queens College", where 40 of us were arrested by the tpf and sent to riker's island!!............funny that i was intoduced to twi in the fall of that very same year (1970), thus ending my time in "the revolution"...........i vividly remember the utter contempt i felt for nixon and "the war machine"..........lots of powerful emotional kindling for vic to set ablaze for god, eh?......................PEACE!

happy bithday roy!!......with a holy peace sign flashin' your way!.........best wishes for many more in health, strength, and joy!

hi fellow greasespotters!..............this was posted on another thread earlier this evening.................i think the topic of suicide is important enough to warrant re-posting it on this thread also..............it is equally appropriate on this thread as on the other, and some of the same posters have posted on both threads........so, here goes...... "the facts are, that neither dennis prager nor the poster who quotes him, are professionally qualified to offer anything but their own uneducated opinions as to the causes of and responsibility for the act of suicide committed by anyone!......of course, they are entitled to voice their opinions, which, imho, displays their abject ignorance of the topic. even if either of them has "experienced" being depressed enough to commit suicide, their opinions still reflect a lack of understanding of any of the latest professional, psychiatric data concerning suicide, as well as the current, proven and accepted treatment regimens effective in the professional psycholgical and/or medical care of patients suffering suicidal ideations. the "reasons", or "causes" of suicide are as varied and as numerous as the volume of suicide cases!........the common denominator is the dysfunctional, thought processes of the various classifications of depression which are "driving" the individual into further "feelings"/thoughts of shame, guilt, hopelessness, worthlessness or of being a helpless "burden" to those who matter most to the individual.........dysfunctional thoughts/thinking can be caused psychologically, physiologically, electrochemically, or, most typically, by a deadly combination of all three factors.........the best care involves all professionals in the healthcare delivery system trained to work the "team" approach for each individual patient, providing individualized, and specific care utilizing all the psycholgical, medical and biochemical tools available to provide the highest quality of care available for each patient..........the prevention and/or treatment of suicide is an area filled with numerous, ongoing studies, as well as numerous completed studies with volumes of data and research. it is a widespread healthcare issue, and depression itself is at what epidemiologists would term, "epidemic" proportions in both the united states as well as eurasia.........opinions such as those attributed to prager are nowhere near "the cutting edge" as to the latest understanding and treatment/prevention of suicide. now regarding vic's "opinions" of suicide and those who committed the act, he had a magnificent, self-contained "understanding" of suicide, and taught it openly and often in the advanced class..........SURPRISE! SURPRISE! suicide is a "devil spirit"!........a person who kills her/himself has got to be "possessed"!..........the ultimate vic "ewwwww factor"!.......by whatever "weakness" the individual allowed in his/her life, that individual "opened the trapdoor" to his/her mind and let that damn spirit in!....simply could not or would not "renew" the mind well enough to keep that "trapdoor" shut!!.......despite the fact that the various individuals had enjoyed vic's or king okie's "personal ministry" more profoundly than thousands of other more "deserving" believers, all that "special love and sauce", and that privileged "private teaching" was not enough for that poor soul to "believe big enough to keep that devil spirit out"! now who's "responsible" for the suicide??............certainly not vic or his wickedly accomplished pattern of sexual and spiritual abuse!........as a matter of fact, not even the victim is responsible for the act itself, 'cuz "da debbil made him/her do it"!!..........possession meant "no free will", since the possessed one is totally controlled by the devil spirit.......but, if it was'nt for the self-willed "weakness" or "spiritual immaturity" of the possessed one, that dirty devil spirit would never have had a "home"!!.......that "contaminated believer" was now just a "vehicle of the adversary" who could'nt rise to the level of believing to keep him/herself "spiritually clean"!.......he/she could have!.......he/she should have!.........but, once "possessed", the person is just a body with a devil spirit controlling it!.........again, that "ewwwwwww factor", which certainly did not promote interaction with the "possessed", but rather avoidance, or just plain disgust!!............like saying the "possessed" deserved, or earned his/her fate!..........does not leave much room for proper care or "ministering" for the poor victim, does it?.......let alone any concern whatsoever on the part of the mogs whose personal perversions and moral depravity set the entire series of events in motion!.........sandra ann sullivan???........oh, she was just some "possessed loser" running around hq!.........obviously you can't listen to, or believe anything she might have said!......it is beneath the mog to deal in any way with the words or works of devil spirits!!!............in the words of the church lady, "HOW CONVENIENT!" from what i know firsthand about the contributing factors and causes of suicide in twi, as well as the professional training and expereience i have in caring for and treating suicidal patients, vic and the okie king are just as culpable in the events and thinking that led to the "devil spirit possession" which "caused" the suicides as are the believers who took their own lives!.......in order to cover their tracks, they outright lied, (bore false witness against their "neighbor"), and then totally defamed, isolated, and discredited their victims with a liberal application of that "ewwwwwww factor" of devil spirit possession!..........that attitude was as helpful to their victims as dennis prager's would be to suicide patients today!.........seems like some folks just can't deal with THE FACTS about vic's "personal ministry" of alcoholic, sociopathic, narcissistic, sexual predation, or his mean-spirited method of dealing with those for whom his "personal ministry" "opened the trapdoor" to devil spirit possession!!......it's good to be "king", eh?...............................peace."

the facts are, that neither dennis prager nor the poster who quotes him, are professionally qualified to offer anything but their own uneducated opinions as to the causes of and responsibility for the act of suicide committed by anyone!......of course, they are entitled to voice their opinions, which, imho, displays their abject ignorance of the topic. even if either of them has "experienced" being depressed enough to commit suicide, their opinions still reflect a lack of understanding of any of the latest professional, psychiatric data concerning suicide, as well as the current, proven and accepted treatment regimens effective in the professional psycholgical and/or medical care of patients suffering suicidal ideations. the "reasons", or "causes" of suicide are as varied and as numerous as the volume of suicide cases!........the common denominator is the dysfunctional, thought processes of the various classifications of depression which are "driving" the individual into further "feelings"/thoughts of shame, guilt, hopelessness, worthlessness or of being a helpless "burden" to those who matter most to the individual.........dysfunctional thoughts/thinking can be caused psychologically, physiologically, electrochemically, or, most typically, by a deadly combination of all three factors.........the best care involves all professionals in the healthcare delivery system trained to work the "team" approach for each individual patient, providing individualized, and specific care utilizing all the psycholgical, medical and biochemical tools available to provide the highest quality of care available for each patient..........the prevention and/or treatment of suicide is an area filled with numerous, ongoing studies, as well as numerous completed studies with volumes of data and research. it is a widespread healthcare issue, and depression itself is at what epidemiologists would term, "epidemic" proportions in both the united states as well as eurasia.........opinions such as those attributed to prager are nowhere near "the cutting edge" as to the latest understanding and treatment/prevention of suicide. now regarding vic's "opinions" of suicide and those who committed the act, he had a magnificent, self-contained "understanding" of suicide, and taught it openly and often in the advanced class..........SURPRISE! SURPRISE! suicide is a "devil spirit"!........a person who kills her/himself has got to be "possessed"!..........the ultimate vic "ewwwww factor"!.......by whatever "weakness" the individual allowed in his/her life, that individual "opened the trapdoor" to his/her mind and let that damn spirit in!....simply could not or would not "renew" the mind well enough to keep that "trapdoor" shut!!.......despite the fact that the various individuals had enjoyed vic's or king okie's "personal ministry" more profoundly than thousands of other more "deserving" believers, all that "special love and sauce", and that privileged "private teaching" was not enough for that poor soul to "believe big enough to keep that devil spirit out"! now who's "responsible" for the suicide??............certainly not vic or his wickedly accomplished pattern of sexual and spiritual abuse!........as a matter of fact, not even the victim is responsible for the act itself, 'cuz "da debbil made him/her do it"!!..........possession meant "no free will", since the possessed one is totally controlled by the devil spirit.......but, if it was'nt for the self-willed "weakness" or "spiritual immaturity" of the possessed one, that dirty devil spirit would never have had a "home"!!.......that "contaminated believer" was now just a "vehicle of the adversary" who could'nt rise to the level of believing to keep him/herself "spiritually clean"!.......he/she could have!.......he/she should have!.........but, once "possessed", the person is just a body with a devil spirit controlling it!.........again, that "ewwwwwww factor", which certainly did not promote interaction with the "possessed", but rather avoidance, or just plain disgust!!............like saying the "possessed" deserved, or earned his/her fate!..........does not leave much room for proper care or "ministering" for the poor victim, does it?.......let alone any concern whatsoever on the part of the mogs whose personal perversions and moral depravity set the entire series of events in motion!.........sandra ann sullivan???........oh, she was just some "possessed loser" running around hq!.........obviously you can't listen to, or believe anything she might have said!......it is beneath the mog to deal in any way with the words or works of devil spirits!!!............in the words of the church lady, "HOW CONVENIENT!" from what i know firsthand about the contributing factors and causes of suicide in twi, as well as the professional training and expereience i have in caring for and treating suicidal patients, vic and the okie king are just as culpable in the events and thinking that led to the "devil spirit possession" which "caused" the suicides as are the believers who took their own lives!.......in order to cover their tracks, they outright lied, (bore false witness against their "neighbor"), and then totally defamed, isolated, and discredited their victims with a liberal application of that "ewwwwwww factor" of devil spirit possession!..........that attitude was as helpful to their victims as dennis prager's would be to suicide patients today!.........seems like some folks just can't deal with THE FACTS about vic's "personal ministry" of alcoholic, sociopathic, narcissistic, sexual predation, or his mean-spirited method of dealing with those for whom his "personal ministry" "opened the trapdoor" to devil spirit possession!!......it's good to be "king", eh?...............................peace.

why should the "leaders" of twi splinters/offshoots be held accountable for their continued adherence to the teachings of vic?............because until they remove the presence of vic from their consciousness of god, and vic's "understanding" of the word "as it has not been known since the first cfentury" is no longer the theological foundation for their "biblical researvch" and teaching, regardless of how many errors they claim to have corrected, they willfully perpetuate the "ministry" and teachings of their "father in the word"...........and, in so doing, they perpetuate the hurt to and abuse of far too many members in particular of the body of christ!........... these various "christian leaders" tout their non-denominationalism in order to cover the anti-denominationalism they inherited from their "father-in-the-word"..........they've also adopted his anti-intellectualism and pride when it comes to their professed ability to "accurately" research, study, teach and "manifest" "god's word" better than your church can or does.......they need to stay close to the doctrines and practices that have "earned them a living" through these years of distancing themselves from the "sins" of vic without cutting off the financial benefits of supplying vic's hapless former followers with enough of his old , watered down teaching to keep 'em "inspired" to give!..........after all, who ordained these guys?.......how many have gone on to legitimate, fully accredited and recognized seminaries to acquire professional, christian training in order to effectively and honestly minister to god's people??.............until they do, their "ministries" are destined to repeat the mistakes and patterns of spiritual abuse programmed into the false doctrines vic drilled into their collective consciousness!...........after all, these guys all started out "helping" twi refugees in the late 1980's and through the 90's , as the doofus from okie was busy purging twi of all debbil spurts along with any normal human beings still functioning behind the walls of zion in his bizzarro world of the "present truth"!................lots of them had a quick answer for the twi refugees who wanted to know where they should send their "abundant sharing", did'nt they??..............several enjoyed the "miracle" of the believers or a believer buying them a house, or building them a church............what were these believers believing back then???.................pfal etc.?...............oh yeah..............can't kill that "cash cow", so we'll raise our own, and of course, we'll get people's believing up by charging for it.......and we'll have meetings, and home fellowhips, and classes, and bible land tours, and lots of events to keep everybody busy "moving the word", and we'll write books , and we won't make mistakes with god's people, and we will continue to rightly divide the word until christ comes back, and..............and................... here's a quote from a letter from john lynn, one of the signers of that 37 page letter that caused such a stir 21 years ago................this quote is from a letter posted at the cesonline site, and recently linked to by a poster on the "who are these people" thread..........it's very interesting to compare this letter, revised in september, 2007, with the letter from john posted on the same site dated march, 1988.............here's the quote from the september, 2007 letter: "In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille (TWI Founder) would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture. We have never lost sight of the goal of moving the Word around the world. If that is still your goal, or if you think there is any way we could be of service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us." so, john honestly believes vic would be "proud" of what he, schoenheit and graeser have done and are doing, eh?..........what in the hell does that mean???is that some kind of feather in your ministry's cap?...............more like a scarlet letter, imho!..............but, at least he's giving credit where credit is due!..........which is more than i can say for cff, and many other offshoots who spend a lot of time and effort covering up the wierwille roots of their existence and belief systems! imho, that's why greasespot is here! at least there's one place in this information culture where you can get the real story about vic and his progeny, without the twists and turns, or rationalizations necessary to promote your own "secret agenda"!...........the reality brew is the best cup o' joe available in cyberspace if you wanna get the other side of the story about twi and vic's pack of mini-cults busily moving his word over the world.................i wonder if vic would be proud of those of us who "waste our time" posting here?......i think jesus christ might be...............................peace.

hello fellow greasespotters!............oh yeah, it was "BIG" alright!..................and yet, as big as it was, it was only the most obvious "tip of the iceberg" of the endemic and profound doctrinal and practical error with which vic thoroughly and throughly,(sic!), corrupted the whole of twi!...........he surrounded himself with "leaders" whom he "owned", as ham put it, because they shared the same guilt as he did, and earned that guilt by their acceptance and practice of vic's personal perversions as truth, and "proper" conduct for the mogs!......this profound and utter betrayal of the trust and innocence of their brothers and sisters in christ is at the root of their vicious rejection of christian scripture. vic revelled in his role as "father in the word"........he loved dropping hints that he was "the 14th apostle"..........he feasted on the adulation of his youthful followers,and the energy of their "enthusiastic believing",............he needed the strength of their purity to replenish his own bankrupt soul, devoid of any genuine, developed, moral compass of his own, despite all those decades of "biblical research" and speaking in tongues! that's why the topic of the first thread i initiated here at the greasespot was "forgiveness".............imho, the pastoral epistles, as well as numerous scriptures throughout the OT, gospels and the NT, require of persons who assume "leadership positions" in the communities of "god's people", moral and behavioral standards that are quite plainly prescribed for them in order that they may indeed remain, "above reproach"!..........these "moral prescriptions" are therefore "godbreathed", and thus, within the confines of even twi theology, are irrefutable, immutable, and irrevocable, since they reflect the omniscient "mind of god".............this now places vic, the doofus from okie, and every other "leader" i mentioned in the first post on that first thread of mine in september of 2007.at "lagerheads" with god himself..............that's the commitment arena............the commitments to god to live according to the "stricter" demands required of the "lifestyle of leadership" is not between the leaders and those they lead...........it's between the "leaders" and their god, the father of jesus christ!...............the benefits to the believers are the "by-products" of the "leaders'" faithfulness to his/her commitments to god as prescribed quite specifically by god in the pastoral epistles...........if these "leaders" break those commitments, they are responsible to god to repent, and then ask god for forgiveness, as well as reconcile with the believer(s) that were injured or offended...............none of this was ever considered by twi "leaders" let alone attempted!..............this then obviously begs the question, to whom were vic, et al "committed"???................they were certainly arrogantly, self-deluded into thinking they could "hide" these perverted "doctrines" from the "believers".............but did they think they could "hide" from god???..................the answer to that is either "yes", or, they themselves were firmly convinced that indeed, their personal perversions were "godly", and proof of their immense "spiritual maturity" as well as proof that their "precious lives" were a "gift to god's people"!!..............as incredible as it seems, the latter was true then, and still is today for rosie, martindale, and everyone else who accepts vic as a "man'o'gawd"! if you've read schoenheit's adultery paper, you too must wonder why he was fired for writing it, along with mirabito, hickmann, bo, and smith?..........what was so wrong about that paper??............how many are still "possessed" from reading a paper that any 6th grader could understand?......what were twi and geer seeing that "contradicted" what vic taught?? that's why that 37 page letter was viewed with such hatred and disdain by geer and the twi bot, and the "yak twig"!.........the authors of that letter went out of their way to avoid casting any aspersions at vic and spent so much time praising and quoting him...........it was a last-ditch effort to try to get the "top leadership" of twi to come together and deal with the most glaring doctrinal errors embedded in their "ministry".................line up everything with "the word" and get twi rolling again................reading that letter today is like reading a post from oldiesman or whitedove, (no offense intended fellas!).......it's that innocuous in terms of "attacking" vic or even the bot for that matter!...........and yet, the reaction was the firing of the lynn's, and the widespread and meanspirited defamation and disinformation campaign against the others who participated in the letter thing. unfortunately, back then, twi was able to control the "spin"........there was no internet, there was no "organized" alternative "ministry"............it's also why there are still a large number of folks in twi and its splinters/offshoots, who owe a large number of believers at least an honest attempt at reconciling these issues, imho............it's also why they'll never get one! so, imho, for all you "leaders" out there, mentioned in so many various threads around the greasespot cafe, living in nice homes paid for by believers, or living at a way nash "root locale", or otherwise believer provided property, or running "ministries" that perpetuate "the word" vic taught you by charging for your own versions on tape, cd, video, dvd, etc., etc., etc.,........of his pfal class, and the rest of his "biblical research principles", and the other books vic "wrote", or making up your own hurtful doctrinal and practical errors.................take a "check-up from the neck up"............why do you still teach this crap???................the integrity of your "word" is buried with vic at that gawdy fountain!!............how are you different?.................peace.

eastern mass....................lived in franklin, lincoln and sharon.

is the politician you are referring to hayes gahagan?......he was a state senator from maine, who ran for the u.s. senate, and got clobbered........he then developed a "seminar" for twi's "word in government" arm, called "the blessings of liberty"..........this seminar and "word in government" concept was hijacked by tom jenkinson as gahagan faded into the background of twi "has-beens". i lived in massachusetts from 1984 through 2002...........really enjoyed it there, and stil have many friends there..........

howdy!.................nice speech!..............is that why vista sucks??................? interesting, honest, and inspirational...........thanks for the vid paw....................peace. staying foolish, Don'tWorryBeHappy

hi all!.........the biggest "surprise" to me, vermontlaw, regarding john's short "editorial" in the fresno bee ,was that, he is listed as being a "staff member" of john hagee ministries!.........i lived in san antonio, tx, for 3 years, and that was sufficiently long enough for me to acquire a severe distaste for all things pertaining to john hagee and his "ministries"..........he is rabidly pro-israel...........maybe he has john s. do tours of israel for him?.........john really does great tours and, is very well connected over in israel............nevertheless, if john is a staff member for hagee, then i'm as disappointed in john s. as he is in george dubya!........... but, i will always respect john s., because he was always forthright and honest with me, and he stood up for what he believed...........right or wrong...........and, he never let vic bully him into submission, no matter how hard vic tried to "tame" him and "put him in his place".......resorting even to attempting to "prophesy" john's son luke into the 3rd presidency of twi, as well as bringing whatever familial pressure to bear upon john and mary, imho...........it's sad to me, that such great ability and talent is now given to john hagee minitries..........although the venue and "christian professionalism" is far bigger than anything vic had to offer, not to mention the oblivion that rosie and the twi of today might have to offer!..............too bad, 'cuz john s. is a really good guy, imho!............................................peace.

hiya twinky!!!............great to see you back!!.........so glad your absence was shortened by serendippity, and nice people! sure glad to be reading your posts twink.....................................welcome back..............good luck on landing one of the two.............and...........peace.