DontWorryBeHappy

Hello WhatTheHey!..........fyi, and for the record here at the greasespot cafe, please allow me to quote from a post to whitedove i posted on a different thread, on a somewhat related topic to this thread........ "......let me make it perfectly clear, that, NEVER ONCE DID VPW, LCM, OR ANY OF THE OTHERS I PERSONALLY CONFRONTED ABOUT SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CASES THEY WERE EACH PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN, EVER DENY THEIR GUILT!....... some even haughtily admitted to their misdeeds, stating unabashedly that god had absolutely "no problem" with what they had done, other than my "rabid legalism" which would cause us to "lose the ministry'!! of course, there were numerous excuses, twisted scriptures and doctines, and vicious personal attacks against the victims (and me), that these lying hypocrites came up with to try and justify or legitimize their actions.......but, NEVER A DENIAL!" "One time, in the early summer of 1984, when i was on vpw's motorcoach in the "courtyard", i confronted vpw with a specific "report" from one of his many victims. after i had presented him with the facts, his only response was........"son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!..........that was it!.........as i sat there in stunned silence, watching him smoke his cigarette, he sicked his guard dog TJ, on me........calling the dog over to sit at my feet, growling through bared teeth!......it was chris geer, who opened the motorcoach door from the outside where he was "standing guard", and called off the dog so i could get out! another time, when i was confronting lcm in the "motorcycle shed" about his sexual abuse of 2 different in-residence corps women at that time, his response to me was........"you need to back off, man! dr. wierwille told me, that if i did'nt loosen up in this category of life, i'd never be a great leader or lover of god's people"!!....again,....NO DENIAL!.......IN FACT, AN ADMISSION!..... with the excuse that it was a direct order from vp himself that started lcm off on his path of sexual predation and human destruction!" I made almost the same, exact statements i quoted above to twi's lawyers during several hours of depositions i made "under oath" to them in several different conversations i had with them during 1999, during the discovery phase of their preparations for the trial that was to take place in sidney, oh, in november of 1999, regarding the lawsuit against twi, lcm and twi's bot brought by paul and fern a--en. the lawyers repeatedly asked me if i was "willing to testify to the same in court", to which i replied, "gladly! just name the time and place!"..........on the day before i was to fly to ohio to appear as a witness for the plaintiffs in that lawsuit, i received a phone call from the plaintiff's lawyer, informing me that twi had "suddenly decided" to settle the lawsuit "out of court", and that it would not be necessary for me to fly to ohio after all!.......apparently, twi's lawyers had convinced their clients that, it would be "better" for twi if the testimony that was to be presented against them in that court case would not become a matter of "public record" !.........so, in order to "protect the ministry" which "god had given them", lcm and twi's bot decided that, indeed, "discretion" would be the better part of "valor".......they chose to "settle the matter" "out of court".........i am not privvy to all the details of that settlement, nor do i care to be..........but, i am thrilled to know, that, the testimony i was prepared to give, and the specific FACTS contained in the depositions i had made, helped force martindale's "resignation" as twi's president in april, 2000!.........i know for a FACT, that martindale and twi were unable to deny the FACTS i presented in those depositions, some of which i quoted above!.........as i said, those were just a few paragraphs from several hours of depositions twi's lawyer's took from me.........i was never deposed by paul and fern's attorney!.......... the out-of-court settlement allowed twi to put all the spin they could on their "handling" of martindale's resignation.......remember........their initial spin was that the lawsuit they had just settled, revolved around a "one time consensual affair" martindale admitted to having, and yada, yada, yada..........which lcm, rosie, the then twi bot knew was a total cover-up of what was really going on in twi's "inner circle", not only at that time, but for many years previous!!.......the judge's ruling is a matter of public record.........interesting to note how much the judge thought rosie and the boyz knew, and how long they had known it!!.......since it was settled out-of-court, i'm sure twi paid a lot of abs in high-priced legal fees for their lawyers to help them in their commitment to absolute "discretion"..........even with all that expensive legal assistance, twi could not prevent the second lawsuit, by january kau----n, which kinda debunked the "one time consensual affair" myth that martindale admitted to.........to prevent the impending flood of FACTS and legal truths that was imminent, twi was forced to "let craig go", drop him from active corps, etc., etc., etc.,............in september of 2000!.........so, apparently the FACTS some feel they need "proof" of were given to twi's lawyer's, who, it seems, thought it a good idea for twi to settle out of court after reviewing those FACTS,,,,,and the judge thought them good enough to settle the case in paul and fern's favor........and twi thought them good enough to pay top dollar to keep them out of the public record so those of you who would really benefit from seeing them, can't do so!!.....unverifiable, WD???.........not for the lawyers, or the judge in sidney who ruled on that case! so..........i applaud all those who have posted the FACTS of their abuse at the hands of twi's "leaders" here!......i am thankful that they've had the courage to post those FACTS here.......and that Pawtucket keeps this place open so those FACTS and thousands more can be posted here for all to see, for as long as there are courageous folks willing to expose themselves to the frosty, compassionless, attacks of those who refuse to acknowlege the veracity of those witnesses!.......in the end, i believe that what goes around comes around, and usually, THE TRUE FACTS all come out in the wash!!.....imho, wth,.....the greatest "offence" is that lcm, rosie, twi and all of it's offshoots, still believe they owe no one any apologies!...........they see no need for their repentance before god and the lord jesus christ!..........they cling viciously to their evil, perverse, doctrines of men.......deluding themselves with their "present truth", "prevailing word", "personal prophecy", "liberating ministries", "biblical research", "bible classes", "deliverance sessions", ad infinitum, ad nauseum, into thinking that they've each got "god's calling" to "teach the word as it has'nt been known since the first century"!!!...........ferociously fighting "the adversary" and all his minions, to keep the legacy of an alcoholic, pathological liar, sociopathic sexual predator, immoral, and unrepentant, "man of god", who had the brazen audacity to present himself to the world as "the teacher",....alive and well!..........to continue burning holes in the souls of innocent seekers in the name of their false gods!!..........just my opinion........for what it's worth..........they are the true voices of offence, to god and humanity!!.................................peace.

Thank you, WhiteDove for taking the time to answer the questions i asked you! it was very nice of you to do so, and........it is very helpful for me to know a little more about where you are coming from. So,........i see you left twi somewhere during late 1989 or early 1990........CONGRATULATIONS!.........i'm sure you did all you could when confronting your limb and other twi leadership about the many issues which they refused to line up to even twi's versions of the bible, let alone the actual scripture itself!....i'm sure their arrogant and absolute rejection, or "purposeful disregard" of the scriptures you tried your best to show them was a disappointment, and probably quite frustrating for you at that time!.....perhaps you were able to protect the folks in your twig from some of the deep hurts caused by this twi sanctioned and commanded rejection of "the word", and the many misdeeds of twi leaderhip that were prevalent in many areas of twi. I left twi via resignation from my "corps assignment, in december, 1986, after a full 9 months of trying my best to get lcm and the bot to see and accept the "truth of the word" regarding the multitude of misdeeds they had committed, and were continuing to commit during those 9 months, and for several years before 1986.....unfortunately, my "corps assignment" at that time, placed me in the position of having daily, one-on-one as well as group meetings with the bot during those months. i say unfortunately, because, due to that daily, firsthand contact with those men and other "top leadership" at hq at the time, i was forced to deal with the firsthand acconts of many victims of sexual and "spiritual" abuse perpetrated against those victims not only by the then twi bot and other twi "top leadership", but also many who had been sexually and "spiritually" abused by vpw himself......women, who were only then, after vpw's death, able to begin voicing what they had suffered at his hands.......these victims' firsthand accounts were often horribly gut-wrenching, and the psychoemotional and "spiritual" damage done to them caused multiple and varied responses.......some were able to obtain closure by sharing what had happened to them with me,.....knowing that i had access to the bot, and that i would confront the individual offenders directly and personally on the behalf of their victims, and report back immediately, their response.......a very few were afforded the "luxury" of a face-to-face meeting with their abusers.......the vast majority were not!........for some, the damage and hurt was so profound, that they required professional psychiatric help and medication in order ro help them cope with the aftermath of what they had experienced......a few required hospitalization.......and, several, unfortunately, committed suicide!........as i said, the horror of what these victims had experienced at the hands of vpw, lcm, and other "top twi leadership" was one of the most difficult things i ever had to deal with, as i tried desperately to help them.........thankfully, there were a few corps grads (dr.s. leven, dr. m. carli, and a few others), who were professionally trained and able to help me with what rapidly became an overwhelming number of "cases" of this abuse......let me make it perfectly clear, that, NEVER ONCE DID VPW, LCM, OR ANY OF THE OTHERS I PERSONALLY CONFRONTED ABOUT SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CASES THEY WERE EACH PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN, EVER DENY THEIR GUILT!....... some even haughtily admitted to their misdeeds, stating unabashedly the god had absolutely "no problem" with what they had done, other than my "rabid legalism" which would cause us to "lose the ministry'!! of course, there were numerous excuses, twisted scriptures and doctines, and vicious personal attacks against the victims (and me), that these lying hypocrites came up with to try and justify or legitimize their actions.......but, NEVER A DENIAL! One time, in the early summer of 1984, when i was on vpw's motorcoach in the "courtyard", i confronted vpw with a specific "report" from one of his many victims. after i had presented him with the facts, his only response was........"son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!..........that was it!.........as i sat there in stunned silence, watching him smoke his cigarette, he sicked his guard dog TJ, on me........calling the dog over to sit at my feet, growling through bared teeth!......it was chris geer, who opened the motorcoach door from the outside where he was "standing guard", and called off the dog so i could get out! another time, when i was confronting lcm in the "motorcycle shed" about his sexual abuse of 2 different in-residence corps women at that time, his response to me was........"you need to back off, man! dr. wierwille told me, that if i did'nt loosen up in this category of life, i'd never be a great leader or lover of god's people"!!....again,....NO DENIAL!.......IN FACT, AN ADMISSION!..... with the excuse that it was a direct order from vp himself that started lcm off on his path of sexual predation and human destruction! You were not there with me during those events, whitedove,.....which, i suppose, is lucky for you.....but, the same rejection, "purposeful disregard" of the "word" which you faced in your confrontations with twi leadership 3 years later, i faced on an almost daily basis from those men on the twi bot!......even though i was not present with you during your efforts to correct the many errors you saw in twi, i know from my own experiences, that what you are saying is true, and i think i truly understand what you went through!......i'm sure your heart was pure, as were your intentions.....so were mine!.........however, based on numerous posts of your's scattered throughout many different threads here at the greasespot throughout the years........i am not so sure you are as willing to accept my "witness" as i am to accept your's..........i don't say that to personally attack you........it's just how i feel after reading what you've posted here. your rejection of the accounts of some of the victims who have posted their "stories" here at the spot, is what causes me to question your willingness to accept my "witness" as i accept your's.......i asked you for honest answers to my questions to you.........and you graciously replied (honestly, i believe!)......imo, you did so because of a strong commitment to honesty and manintaining your personal integrity.........i accept your answers as honest, and i think i understand how you may have felt during your time of confrontaion with twi leadership at your local level, even though i was not there with you.....perhaps you, personally, are self-assured and/or "thickskinned" enough to not have any "hurt feelings" were i to reject your answers, and doubt their veracity or truthfulness, because i was'nt with you when you took your stand.......but, many of the victims whose firsthand accounts you have rejected here, are not as "thickskinned" or self-assured as you may be......and, your total rejection of their "witness" does hurt them........especially since their experiences with twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" of "the word" were far more intimate and graphic in nature than your's or mine!.........do you understand that whitedove??........does the christ in you bear witness to the christ in them??.........after all, are they not your sisters in christ?? Almost everyone who posts here left twi.........there are as many reasons for leaving as there are posters.......but, every one of us who posts here left twi because the "word of god" was no longer twi's "rule of faith and practice"! the paths of exit are also as varied as the reasons for leaving......and the choices people have made or are making regarding their "spiritual" beliefs are also diverse........but, regardless of the reasons for leaving twi.........regardless of the paths of escape..........and, regardless of our current beliefs...we are all connected by holy spirit, and our exit from twi's cult of personality!.....how we treat and respect each other is more important to some than to others........but, i do know that part of Pawtucket's heart regarding the purpose of the greasespot cafe, is for it to provide a place of respite for all us twi "refugees".......a place to vent........a place to discuss our common issues.........a place to debate, in a civil manner, our current differences of opinion on whatever!........and, perhaps, most importantly,....a place to help heal the wounds of those most profoundly injured by vpw's, lcm's, and twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" for that "word of god" which, initially brought us all together,......and, eventually, caused us each to leave! I respect your personal journey WD......i respect your right to believe whatever you choose to believe......i respect your choice to leave twi.........i also expect the same respect from you.........and, i would ask in addition, that you dig down deep into your heart, and bring up some of the compassion of christ that dwells therein, and share it with the other twi "refugees" whose journey, though newer, older, shorter, or longer......and however otherwise different from your own....is just as important and necessary to them as your's has been and is to you!..............thanks again for your honest answers to my earlier questions!.................peace.

bulwinkl......interesting choices!.....hammered dulcimer.........great celtic instrument!.........did you know that our own benjamin franklin invented the glass armonica?..............now there was one wild and interesting "founding father"! pink floyd is always good!.......and alicia keyes is very talented yeah, excie!......i just love that jean butler!.......she is a gorgeous dancer!..........music is so totally wonderful!

Hello WhiteDove.............i've been following along with your posts here on this thread for a couple of days now, as well as some posts you've placed on some other threads.......your last post here raised some questions in my mind, which i hope you won't mind answering.............. "I left on my own at the point where I felt there was going to be no change in the situation. I did confront the Limb and of course answered the Corps demand letter at a later point. I did so at a coordinators meeting so I had witnesses as to everything that was said and not said. I laid out point by point my concerns and why according to scripture I felt that their direction was not in the right way just like we learned ( well some of us did). I informed our fellowship the following day of our decision and offered an oppertunity to anyone who wanted to transfer to a Way Twig with our blessing. None did At that point we continued with our home fellowship." was this in about 1989 or so, after martindale's "loyalty" demand letter?.........what "situation" are you referring to, about which you "felt there was going to be no change"?...........what exactly were your "concerns" about "their direction" which you felt "was not in the right way"?.........what, in your opinion, was "the right way" "we learned", and, what was "wrong" with "their direction"?........do you still have an independent "home fellowship" which you run?........what do you teach at your fellowship?........i mean, do you teach the bible?......do you have any specific resources outside of the bible that you use or recommend to help the members in their study of the bible?......do you recommend works by any authors who have written books about the bible or how to study it?........i was just curious as to the answers to these questions, because i feel such answers would help me, and hopefully other greasespotters, to have a better perspective on where exactly you are "coming from" in your posts here. i'm thinking that, perhaps it would be helpful for us to have a clearer understanding of exactly what your personal philosophical and theological beliefs are, in order to enjoy less acrimonious discussions on this thread............i, for one, would sure appreciate having a little more info from you to help me honestly understand the positions you take in your posts here.............thanks for your time and your honest response to my honest inquiries.........................peace.

late night for all you celts out there! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrP9anxy0pY...eature=related# more......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-kRmWO8up4...eature=related# still more...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnZ9QE4-Egs...eature=related# and now, the men........... the sun.......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD4jxsGhv4E...eature=related# and, the climax!..........

Hey dmiller!...........unfortunately, i have no personal knowledge of exactly what role greg pharis played in the institutionalization of personal porophecy within the bowels of ces/stf.......i know that he was the single most influential practitioner of it in the lives of the graeser's while they were in florida, where they were introduced by him to personal prophecy as a powerful weapon in their ministerial arsenal, and that he was very involved with jalvis, and schoenheit in their beginnings with personal prophecy........and he was fairly prominent at various ces/stf "events" for a while........florida church international or something like that, was the name of pharis' original home church, i think.....i dunno for sure........but, eventually there was some major doctrinal difference between pharis and ces/stf, and pharis rapidly faded out of the picture...........i paid scant attention to ces through the 90's, and the occasional phone call from jalvis was my only exposure to what they were up to at the time........maybe tzaia, or cinderpelt could offer more accurate info. Tom Strange.........any hits on your google search???

Hiya Goey!...........i don't presume to speak for rev. groucho, but......your obvious lack of a true commitment to the word the reverend teaches, as demonstrated by your lackluster "spiritual" performance of late, has made it necessary for groucho (at the behest of his board of trustees) to evoke a greater level of commitment from future students of his class,.....by raising the required donation level to $300!!..........that should substantially raise the level of believing groucho believes is requisite for his students to get the most out of the best of the class!!!...........your questions will be answered at the end of the class!!!..........you can still take it as many times as you want, since you are a grad of the e-bay version!!.......................peace.

Hi everybody!.........tzaia,.....thanks for your posts.......it's nice to have some input from a former "insider", or at least from someone who had a firsthand experience with what appears to be, the generalized dysfunction that is the daily routine at the STF "home office"!.......imho, it is the word dysfunction which best describes the interpersonal realtionships at the 'home office" among the stf principals........however, this is not somehting new which developed during the last several years......it's a longstanding badge worn by these folks for some 30 years now, imo! as i stated previously on this thread, the addition of the graeser's to the original ces bod was a major bone of contention between jalvis and the 4 other "founding members" of the ces board. mrs. graeser, imo, had exhibitted psychosocial eccentricities long before her arrival at ces!......during a lightbearers experience in her in rez corps days, she became pretty notorious for a "confrontation" she had with a poor "possessed" person they had successfully harangued into going to their twi promo twig in, i believe, columbia, mo..........kag spent several hours in a melodramatic "spiritual battle" with a "legion of devil spirits" tormenting this poor soul whom they had met at this twig........kag was able, through her deft operation of "all 9 all the time", to coerce many of the spurts to name and identify themselves, eventually climaxing with the exposure and conversation with the resident "daimon", or "5-star general" in command of this evil host!.....the daimon said it's name was SWA-TRA-TRA..........the name our Strange friend has invoked several times on this thread!..........(thanks Tom, for bringing your old pal back into the limelight!.......LOL!)..............SWATRATRA described how it maintained command of such a motley crew, and, during the interview, even revealed the names of some well-known people, who were "born again of the wrong seed", as twi doctrine labelled it!.......three of the notables i remember being mentioned were, barbara streisand, steven spielberg and muhammad ali........yup.......that's what ole swatratra said alright!........whatever the final outcome was for the poor person supplying the "home" for swatratra and friends was, the info on the tape kag made of this session, (that's right!,...it was audio taped).......was so spiritually "heavy", that vic played the tape for the in-rez corps at emporia, after he heard it, and also at the advanced class at emporia later that summer!.......many, myself included, thought the whole thing was a joke, or some kind of quirky little "trap" vic was setting for the new students at the ac, and that he would expose the trap and use it as a launching pad for some tirade on how "spiritually asleep" all the attendees were or some such foolish thing.........he had been known to do such things before...........but NO!!!.......this was for real!!!..........well, there were generally 2 camps among the corps which grew out of the response to the content of the tape.......one, amazed at how accurate the teaching in the ac was, and how great the operation of the revelation and power manifestations could be for every believer!.......the other, amazed at how ridiculous the whole thing was!...........it endeared kag to her fellow corps members in a jocular way........she received the nickname of swatratra and later on, was nicknamed endora by the members of her in-rez corps twig!......one in-rez corps twig even named itself swatratra in her "honor"!!.......after that, i always referred to kag as swatratra, in honor of the incredulity of it all........probably a little overly sarcastic,...but, come on!!! when jalvis was the lc of ny, the graeser's graduated the corps and were assigned as area leaders for the rochester area in ny.......it was during this time, that the fateful, close relationship between the graeser's and jalvis began.........and lasted all the way through december, 2006!.........apparently, the 4 other members of the ces founding bod, were no more impressed with the graeser's than i was.........and, their coming to be on the bod was a divisive bone of contention between jalvis and the other 4...........especially when it came to swatratra herself!.......yup,....the old nickname popped up again during the discussions regarding the graeser's and john schoenheit becoming members of the ces bod!........it was jalvis who insisted that those three would make outstanding additions to the bod, while the other 4 rejected that thinking.......you see, jalvis was still deeply entrenched in twi doctrine, and thought that schoenheit's "research accumen" and the graeser's "spiritual" and "intellectual savvy" would be "tremendous assets" to ces in the years to come!...........the others disagreed.......and, as posted here previously, eventually all resigned from ces because of this, momentus promotion, and other issues involving jalvis' inability to reject and let go of all previous twi doctrine.......a big need which the other members of the founding board felt was absolutely necessary if ces was to be what they envisioned it to be.......none of those other 4 has ever been involved with ces since their resignations..........and, imho, jalvis, as well as the other members of the ces leadership, remained entrenched in most of twi's doctrine, even to this day!.........this is TRUE despite their vehement and longwinded protests to the contrary, imo! so, the roots of kag's role as "chief prophetess" for ces are deeply set in twi, and vic's style of "leadership" prowess in the "spiritual battle"!.......added to that mix was momentus, and bill hamon's outfit in florida, where ces learned the "basics" of their foolish personal prophecy practices.........quite a "witches brew" of dysfunctional christian theology and "ministry", imo!!.......frankly, i am surprised that john schoenheit and jalvis have so totally bought into the whole personal prophecy baloney!.........imo, it is just another experiential freak show from the fringes of fundamentalist christian lunacy!........it elevates the experiences of a few vocal, personable "leaders" to the level of "right doctrine"........and, just like vic, who often proclaimed that "experience is no guarantee for truth",........ they have wasted countless hours manipulating and "privately interperetting" the bible until it proves that their doctine regarding personal prophecy is not only "right", but more "biblically accurate" than anyone else's!!........i'm sure that both swatratra and vic would be very proud of what stf has accomplished with their personal prophecy!!!............rampant, arrogant, destructive, interpersonal and "spiritual" dysfunction.......which has torn apart numerous marriages, longstanding friendships and not a few individual christian lives!!........shame on you ces/stf "servant/leaders" for the experiental tomfoolery you teach as "right doctrine", and for the havoc you have wreaked within the body of christ! sorry for the length of yet another post on this already lengthy thread............i suppose there's plenty more to say about this........but, that's enough from me for now!.....................peace.

Hi there Nathan Friedly!........welcome to the greasespot cafe!........you seem like a very nice young man........thank you for your posts here.......i hope you'll stick around long enough to enjoy some of the many varying theological cusines that our menu has to offer!......i particularly enjoy our house special reality brew.......i find it stimulating and really an "eye-opener" on those hard-to-get-out-of -the-bed-you've-made-for-yourself days!.........i hope you will too....... your topic here, "A note on forgiving", caught my attention today!..........it has been a topic of particular practical import and impact for many of us who frequent this place.........maybe, as you've "read around" here, you've come across some threads that delve into this same topic?.........if not, check them out........you may find them of interest and/or value....... your posts on this thread, and on the "tightly wrapped packages" thread, have stirred up some questions in me that i'd like to ask you.......it would be really loving of you to answer them if and when you get a chance.........you mention "the word" many times.........for example,......."god's word", "the true and accurate word", "the accurate word", "speaking the word", "the truth of god's word", etc.,..........what are you referring to when you refer to "the word"??.........what is "the word" in CFF?........ you mentioned that you are in CFF's "fellowlabourers program", which you describe as a "leadersip training program"........i'm wondering, when it comes to "forgiving", i am interested to know if CFF teaches anything about the unique and specific responsibilities of "leaders" in the church of the body of christ, when it comes to their practical application of the doctrines and "processes" of forgiving and forgiveness?..........from my limited understanding of the christian scriptures, it seems that there are demands made of "leaders" in the church regarding such things as repentance for wrongs committed by them towards the believers in their church, which are additional requirements for "leaders" in order to enjoy the forgiveness from the believers who have been wronged, for the wrongs committed against them...........are there??...........i notice that you mention rev. wayne clapp (his name is on the link you provided on the "packages" thread), and quote rev. john nessle..........under whose auspices were these CFF leaders ordained?........do they have formal seminary training or credentials from an accredited christian college or seminary?.......do they have formal training in biblical exegesis, or textual criticism?........do they have formal training in greek, hebrew, aramaic or latin?.........are they thus qualified to provide you "fellowlabourers" with "the true and accurate word" in your leadership training? ......what formal, professional training do they have in christian ministry or counselling?.........do they ahere to the "principles of biblical research" as taught in and by the way international?........were they "leaders" in TWI??..........if so, have they apologized to the believers they may have wronged during their time as TWI leaders?.........do they need to?..........did they teach you "fellowlabourers" to "lump loving and forgiving in together" as you stated you do?......... if so, what is their scriptural basis for this "lumping together"?..........or is this just something you have developed on your own? you stated that you never considered CFF to be a TWI OFFSHOOT...........but, since visiting the greasespot, you may now consider CFF to indeed be an OFFSHOOT of TWI.......beacause, as you said, "i guess we do have a lot of the old way folks in our group"...........may i offer my opinion that, it is not WHO is in your group which makes it a TWI OFFSHOOT, but rather, WHAT is taught and promulgated by CFF leaders, which makes it an OFFSHOOT of TWI........what do you think?........also, the "original manuscript" of about 70% of the content of the PFAL BOOK that you say you're trying to get a copy of can be found in E.W. Bullinger's book "HOW TO ENJOY THE BIBLE"........which, imho, is a more expertly and finely written book, authored by an eminently more qualified scholar than vp!.........i'm pretty sure your dad has a copy lying around somewhere........or if not,.........surely your CFF bookstore or library will have one.......check it out, nathan.....it really is a much better read! i sure hope you don't get defensive from this "barrage" of questions!.........please don't, or you'll miss the point of my asking them..........hope you won't mind doing the work it may take to answer these questions..........i really do appreciate you taking the time to think about them and answer them.......it should provide a good learning opportunity for both of us, don't you think??........thanks again for this thread , and your posts!.........nice meeting you here at the greasespot......come and sit a spell..........enjoy our reality brew!.........the first cup's on me!!..........................peace.

Hello again to all you greasespotters participating in the wrap-up of this thread! thanks again for all your responses to what has been posted here for the last 2 and a 1/2 months! your patience and input has been wonderful, and i heartily thank you all for both! tonight, the final 2 questions of the original 7 i asked on 10/01/07: #6)-----who is currently on your board of directors? your prophetic council? Board of Directors Mark Graeser John Schoenheit Dan Gallagher Karen Theisen Tom Resner Gary Theisen a short blurb on each of the above current members of the STF BOD can be found at their main website. as posted here previously, the prophetic council was disbanded a year ago, and, as of today, is no more! #7)-----do you foresee a cooperative relationship between ces/stf and the graeser's and the resner's in the near future? if yes, on what grounds? if no, why not? From what i was told by these men, and what has been posted here on this thread, it is obvious that, since the graeser's are continuing to press their various lawsuits against john lynn, jeff blackburn and dan gallagher, they have no intention of seeking a cooperative relationship with STF. from what has been told me by the 3 men i have personally spoken with, and whom i have quoted (by permnission from them), on this thread, tom resner is firmly and ideologically aligned with the graeser's, and also has no intention of pursuing a rapprochement with STF, nor a cooperative relationship with their ministry. there is an annual BOD meeting again this january, 2008. elections to the board will again be held, which will determine the BOD membership for the coming year. i suppose that, anyone interested in knowing the results of that election will be able to visit the STF website, and find out the results for themselves. imho, based on the communication i have had with john l., john s., and dan gallagher, and, the graeser's insistence upon allowing their lawsuits to run their courses through the indiana court system, there will be no future cooperative relationship between them. there will probably be some kind of "new offshoot" of twi for the hungry christian community to enjoy some time in the future. oh what joy this must bring to god, and his son jesus christ!..........i, for one, doubt that i'll ever be involved with STF or any other twi offshoot during my remaining years on this beautiful planet earth!...........sure wish jesus christ would come back soon to "rightly divide" all the mess vic, twi and the offshoots have made of their various "ministries"!! and the mess they've all made in the lives of all too many who have chosen to support and/or follow any of them!!.........what a truly wonderful day that will be! until then, thanks to pawtucket for keeping this little old cafe open, and for keeping the menu fresh, interesting, and enjoyable! thanks again to all who have taken the time to read this thread, and to those who have posted their thoughts on it!........i am no longer responsible to report objectively to you all what the answers to my questions are!........my time as "secretary" for STF is now officially finished!.........for any interested, i'll be posting my own thoughts and opinions about "all of this" here at the greasespot cafe........just as i promised jalvis i would do when he first called me and asked me to "let him know what i think".....almost one year ago!.........i'll be happy to answer whatever questions you may have, any time here at the spot.........i plan on sticking around this place for a good while......i've really come to enjoy this place...........but more importantly..........i've really come to know and appreciate the folks who hang out here..........love to you all, and.....................from the depths of my heart to your's........................PEACE!

yup.....definitely garibaldi on the drums.......but, also definitely.....no skip in the horn section!.......wonder why?

Mohandas K. Gandhi, Albert Einstein, Martin Luther King Jr., Stephen Hawking, Will and Ariel Durant.

geez, paw!..........i forgot that the first concert was tonight!................thanks for the info...........can't wait to see and/or here some clips from the show..........any word on that from the "batcave'??.....................peace.

Imagine............thanks for your thread!........i have found, since leaving twi 21 years ago this month,...... that my need to think that i must "know that i know that i know" was as manufactured as the so-called "answers" twi said they had to all the questions that did not matter to me before twi......and have mattered even less since i left!!..........i am happy to no longer belong to the bible thumpers club of chest beating primates, who think they know more about god than the rest of the world........and, today, when challenged by any question the answer to which, i have no clue,............i am able to unabashedly, and without any self-condemnation or embarrassment, state that, "i know that i know that i don't know"!!!.......................peace.

Evan!............thanks for taking the time to track that down and post the link!.......gawd!........the dancing prez!.........i had forgotten how absolutely awful that was!..........biblically, "spiritually" and from just the visual perspective!......it truly was "a sign of things to come"!.........the eve of destruction would also be a pertinent musical "footnote" to that piece!........... and......my man, T-Bone!..........lmao!.........at your pic!..........you're a wiz with that photo stuff, dude!.........almost, "animalistic and vicious"................peace!

Hi there all you greasespotters!......only 15 days left until christmas!........hope all your shopping, shipping, wrapping, baking, craftmaking, and card-sending is going well!..........thanks again for all your posts to this thread..........and for taking the time to read them all!..........please continue reading and posting, as this thread winds it's way to closure!........ #5)---do you still publicly or privately promote the momentus "training" to your followers? if yes, why? if no, why not? The momentus "training" is an outgrowth of lifespring, a church that was formed under the auspices of something called meshiach ministries, i think. i beiieve it started as an "EST-style" human resources corporate training program that had some moderate "success" during the early 1980's. i don't know anything about it firsthand, since i never took it, nor do i ever intend to! this in spite of numerous attempts by various ex-way corps grads in the late 80's to get me to participate in the training sessions as then offered by one dan tochini (sp?), one of the founders of meshiach ministries and, for a long time, the chief "trainer" of momentus. there is a thread entitled, "ces and momentous" further down the list of threads in this "ces in crisis" forum, which provides firsthand accounts from folks here who participated in momentus. perhaps, that will provide you with more info than this thread will, regarding momentus. The initial promotion of momentus to the ex-way community was begun by dan st---emer, a 6th corps grad, who was living in california during 1987-88,.....became involved with dan tochini, took the momentus training, and then promoted it to the then rapidly growing exodus of of way corps folks from twi........dan s. is the one who introduced tochini and momentus to john l., john s., graeser's, and many other former, prominent "leaders" from twi......the CES "servant/leadership" reported many good things by word of mouth throughout the growing numbers of ex-way people......john lynn, along with dan s., became a major promoter of momentus, as did CES and other early offshoots of twi, and some other "prominent" ex-wayfers......when CES was founded, in the spring of 1987, neither john s., nor the graeser's were members of the founding BOD. john lynn was, along with 4 other former twi "leaders". john lynn's vociferous and persistent endorsement and promotion of the momentus training was a major "sticking point" with the other 4 members of the founding BOD of CES. none of the other 4 founding BOD members has ever taken the momentus training! and, the resignations from the BOD of CES of each of those 4 people, shortly after CES was founded by them with john lynn, all involved strong opposition to john l.'s continued "high profile" endorsement and promotion of momentus during his travels throughout and among the rapidly growing numbers of ex-twi fellowships and groups across the usa. another major "point of disagreement" for each of those 4 individuals was john l's "insistence" on adding john s., and mark graeser to the CES BOD!.......opposition to this was particularly strong regarding the foreseen influence of mrs. graeser upon CES if mark was added to the BOD. none of those other founding CES BOD members were ever involved with CES again, after their resignations. JOHN SCHOENHEIT-------john told me the following, "we, as a ministry, do not promote momentus to our followers any more. we stopped promoting momentus to CES/STFI followers about 5 years ago." ....... the initial relationship between CES/STFI was intended to be symbiotic. that is, there was mutual promotion of each by the other. but, this relationship waned in the late 90's. apparently, there were some "doctrinal differences and issues" which arose between the two ministries, which widened the gap developing between them. by the time the doctrinal ice had formed in the early 2000's, john s., stated that, CES/STFI "leadership began to notice a decided lack of fruit" produced for CES/STFI followers who were taking the momentus "training", and, "complaints" about momentus began to be voiced and heard. john s. said that, the " tremendously positive results" momentus had on himself, john l., the graeser's, and other CES/STFI principals, were so "powerful" for them personally, that, perhaps, their vision regarding continued promotion and involvement with momentus "may have been somewhat clouded". he said they were all somewhat "surpised and disappointed" to hear the "negatives", and that, such "tremendous results" as they had individually enjoyed were no longer occurring for CES/STFI followers, who were taking the momentus training. also, "doctrinal differences" now seemed to be "unresolveable", and, as CES/STFI wanted to become a more "full service" ministry, they began looking for alternative "self-improvement" type of activities to recommend to their supporters. john s. rattled off a quick list of 4 or 5, which i can't recall right now other than 2..... "lifeshapers", and "enneagram". but, he also mentioned that current STF "servant/leadership" itself was developing expertise in counselling services, mentioning that karen theisen has recently completed her work on a master's degree in counselling from a college in michigan. john s. stated that, he does not promote momentus privately to any STF followers, nor does STF plan to do so publicly in the future. DAN GALLAGHER-------dan also stated that, STF, "as a ministtry, does not publicly promote momentus, nor have we during the last 5 years or so. i also do not promote momentus privately to any of our STF supporters.". he said that there were just too many "problems" coming up with CES/STFI involvement with momentus. apparently, there has been some kind of split between tochini, and someone named lepazzi(sp?) and another former momentus "trainer". but, regardless, dan g. seemed to agree with me when i voiced my opinion to him that, no one in the momentus trainings is properly or formally trained to deal with the various profound psycho-emotional issues which the momentus "training" seems to bring to the surface in the lives of many participants. he confirmed that "lifeshapers" is an alternative to momentus, which is some kind of personal development type of program that STF is currently "informing" some of its followers about, but did not mention any others. he also brought up karen theisen's recent completion of her master's degree in counselling, and said he is looking forward to the improved input she can provide to STF in its desire to offer better self-development and counselling services to STF followers who "need or want them". JOHN LYNN-------john l. and i did not discuss much about momentus during our recent conversations, or e-mail exchanges. he did state that, he no longer publicly promotes momentus to STF supporters. from what i gathered from my conversations with dan and john s., he may "on occasion" with "specific individuals" suggest participation in the momentus training on a "private, one-on-one basis". john l. himself, however, did not state anything like that to me in any of our conversations, but i did not ask him that question when we talked recently. both john s., and dan g. sort of hinted to me, that if this is indeed factual, it may be "a topic of discussion" between them and john l. in the future. remember, john l. currently is not a member of the STF BOD, nor does he hold any paid, "official" position with STF. he is a "private citizen". thanks again to all you greasespotters who are taking your time to read this thread. i encourage you to continue to provide your considered and valuable input to this thread!...........................peace.

oh yeah dmiller!!!........tommy rocks!!............ oh?........did you want electric???.............why not?..............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a64uyOUw_A...eature=related#

ok, so i lied!!!!......but, sheeesh, paw!........thanks for the reminder!!!!................can't believe i forgot!!!!!!!..............truly, a great loss!!!....................peace. thanks for all the great music and memories, john winston lennon!

LOL!........rummy!......you've been addicted to music too long to blame it on us!!!.......excie........vince gill is one talented guy!....great voice and pretty durn good on the ole 6-string too!........waysider.......thanks for the long journey.......and the janis ian link too...........paw........thanks for elana.......and thanks more for this website!......i've just been playin' here all day!!!!.........this thread had me "lost in louis" for the last 2 hours!!!!.........as a result, i've put together my last post for today, on this thread..........because i think he deserves it..............here's a little tribute to pops!......hope you like it............ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDGRMQ8xKPA# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzx58wncxRQ# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YruhGhRKKY# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r94-7nJt-WM# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncXtUml7M6M# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd4HPipfceU# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfuJ9NjKpkk#

yes, excie,....she sure was.......wonder what she's doin' now??louis armstrong was a civil rights leader long before it was "cool" to be one, and long before black people in this country enjoyed equal civil rights!......i love louis as a man who fought the good fight, while bringing the beauty and joy of his music to the world!..........here he is in 1962, denmark......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCj4tv0bKCc#

two of the co-founders of the new orleans jazz and heritage festival.........and, imho,......2 of the greatest "conversationalists" of that universal language of the human soul and spirit!!................it sure can be a wonderful world, at times! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yKgAEkCKxY#

one of the greats!........along with benny g., and woody h.,......but pete was always my favorite!....enjoy!............thanks for john prine...........

waysider!.....you're preachin' to an old time jazzfest junkie, both newport and nawlins, both of which goerge wein was instrumental (pun intended) at getting off the ground!!!!.........if we're gonna start JAZZIN' NOW, IT'S GONNA GET LONG.........BUT......WHAT THE HECK..........LET'S DO A COUPLE...........btw, is regina carter kin to ron carter?.........sure great to see george's ole "king and queen" rythmn section on that vid you posted!..........for starters.............. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrQ6NW2huic# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWjvAw8e92g#

apparently so, hiway29!.......i don't have access to that site either.........even though i'm ex-corps, i refuse to join that place, because, imho, there's too many who show up there (from what i've been old) who still need to be bi--hslapped into reaity, and who need to apologize to a whole lotta folks in this world!.........again......that's just me!................no offense meant to you evan.........i'm pretty sure lack of access for many of us greasespotters probably just slipped your mind.................................peace.