DontWorryBeHappy

Hi Waysider!...............thanks for starting this interesting thread!............ Looks like oldiesman's rose colored vic apologist bilinders have once again been "loosed" by the actual facts presented here by waysider!..........make no mistake about it.............vic most definitely taught that all cancer was "devil spirit possession"!!..........if you had cancer, you were possessed!.......... when i first took the ac in rye, ny, april,1972........vic was absilutely adamant about this!.........i took the ac again in the summer of '72, and every summer thereafter ('72, '73, '74, '75' and '76) as well as the ac "specials" on discerning of spirits, word of knowledge and word of wisdom (summers of '74, '75 and '76, respectively).........at every one, vic remained absolutely adamant about this teaching!......."EVERYTHING THAT HAS LIFE OF ITSELF IS SPIRIT. ALL SPIRIT IS LIFE!"..........please note, that, oldiesman missquoted vic........he reversed it.......it's not all life is spirit......it's "all sprit is life"..........therefore, since everything that "has life of itself" is spirit.......and "all spirit is life".....all cancer ( which according to vic, has "life of itself") is spirit......that is, devil spirits..........so, vic definitely taught, that, if you had cancer you were "possessed"!..........no question about that! on the closing night of the ac special on discerning of spirits, july,1974........vic conducted a healing service..........during that service, at the front of the brc, vic personally "ministered" to a beloved, longstanding grad and fellow motorcycle enthusiast from flint, mi,...."happy jack" chandlee.........brc was packed and there were 2 meal tents set up in the brc parking lot for the overflow crowd.........vic himself "ministered" to "happy jack" with his microphone totally on and turned up! he "cast out cancer spirits" from jack, which everyone could hear ............despite this, happy jack died of cancer 1 or 2 years later............despite such public "failures", there remained no "budging" on this doctrine............all of us who knew happy jack were terribly disappointed.......as was jack himself,.....who told me personally, that he felt "terrible" that he could not "believe big enough to keep those damn spirits out"!..............this kind of incident totally validates what dot said in her post here.............. it was'nt until after vic's older brother, harry, died a cruel death from cancer in october,1977, that there was any progress away from vic's adamant stance regarding all cancer being caused by devil spirit possession.........even then, the doctrine "progressed" only as far as allowing for the possibility that not EVERY cancer was necessarily a "devil spirit"!............but, the general rule remained the same, even after vic's own death in 1985, from occular melanoma with liver metastasis..........vic's son, don, also died of lung cancer.........don't know how twi handled that..............but vic's death was euphamized so many different ways (especially by geer in pop!), that the actual cause of his death was hardly known, even amongst the corps! all the advances in cancer treatments , therapies and research, obviously point to the intellectual and medical ignorance the acceptance of this adamant doctrine requires...........for example,......the vaccine now available to women which prevents cervical cancer, now known to be caused by the human pappiloma virus which is spread primarily via sexual contact............and many other surgical and chemotherapeutic treatments for various cancers today........ can god heal people from cancer??...........absolutely!............but so can the medical profession...........and, obviously.......not all cancer is "devil spirit possession"! dot's sentiment regarding twi's cruel, unnecessary condemnation that "pours water on a drowning man",.......is, imo, right on!.............it does not deny god's ability or willingnes to heal cancer patients...........it exposes the ignorance and cruelty of vic's teachings regarding cancer, which, in effect, did more to hinder god's deliverance for cancer patients than to encourage it!.................................................peace.

thanks mike!.........the shroyers are a wonderful family!........miney was a great gal!.........must have been fun working with her!..............can you tell me the location of those other threads you mentioned........i wanna read 'em..........then this thread can get back on the rail!!......thanks again!................peace.

hey mike!.........no need to pm me........just tell me here where the answers to my questions are here at the spot......i'll go find 'em........i really would like to know.......sorry everybody........mike just told me that he's already posted the answers here at the spot somewhere before.........does'nt want me to derail the thread.........that's cool........sorry.........but can you just post the locations of the threads those answers are on here for me real quick........thanks, mike!..........sorry about the derail.....................................peace.

i'm paid in full for the rest of the year mike...thanks for the answers??....oh, one more question.........when you were on staff back in the day.......did you hang out with mark gluckin?.......do you have any tapes from back then that he made for ya?........don't worry about the bandwith bill........god will supply!! hoe 'bout some of those answers??........................................peacew

wow!!!......mike!!!......i'm so glad you're here today!!!...........while you're here........would you answer a few questions for us????? when you were on staff, years ago,.......were you in the research dept.??..........who was that lady who was a believer since the 1950's that you worked so closely with???.........what were some of the great truths about vic that she shared with you???.............how many hours, or days, or weeks, or years did you spend with dr. while you were there???........did you help him write any of his books??........did you work on the research team with him on any of the books??..........were you one of the "ghostwriters" of the "our times" columns in the magazine??......when did you graduate from the corps????.........did you spend a lot of time with dr. while you were in rez????..............did dr. personally hand you your certificate when you graduated from the corps???.........did you ever read any of his books together with him.....you know, like, out loud??......did you ever get to spend any quality time with him on the motorcoach??..........did he let you see that personal research library of his....behind the mantle of the fireplace in his office??......did you get to ask him a lot of questions about the bible and things he was working in the word??.....how did he personally impact your life back in the day??? thanks for answering these questions, mike...............you're the best!!.................................peace.

Hi Goey!.........thanks for this thread..........and thanks even more for explaining for dot and the rest of us why you started it the way you did! the situation with your remaining family is very sad......i am sorry that their willful blindness is putting you in an increasingly untenable "box" in your relationship with the people on this planet who are the most important to share your love with!...........you are, as of now, no longer able to say that you "never experienced the abuse from vpw personally"........because, goey, you are experiencing it now.......from people who matter most to you!!..........they are saying exactly the same to you that their "father in the word" spewed in the faces of the others whom he victimized.......the same self-protecting lies and the same vicious, false accusations against the truly innocent victims!........you are NOT separated from god!.........you are NOT walking in darkness!......you are NOT thinking evil!........you ARE trying to come to grips with the FACT that vic was a cruel, alcoholic, sociopathic, narcissist........a serial sexual predator and pathological liar.........who molested and raped his sisters in christ because he presumed to be entitled to do so!.............he was a mentally ill, morally bankrupt, spiritual hitch-hiker.......who preyed upon god's children for his own gratification and for "filthy lucre's sake"!!..........i'm not pointing fingers......I'M STATING THE FACTS!!!..........loudly and clearly for all those pathetic vic apologists to hear..........few will listen..........they prefer the comfort of their chosen idolatry to the stark reality of the truth.............they will twist and distort and "privately interpret" their bibles while they accuse the victims of lying or having some "axe to grind"............ that's why i respect those here at the spot who have "gone on record" with the facts concerning the abuse they suffered at the hands of their "father in the word"!.....because......his perverse doctrines and practices reach beyond his grave to attack god's children to this day......but those who speak up, enduring the spiteful wrath of the self-blinded apologists.....provide the validation that you and hundreds of others like you need in order to accept the FACTS......and undo the snare of the devil that twi is to this day!..............again......i'm sorry you have to deal with people you love who refuse to love you back because you refuse to deny reality.....don't quit loving them goey......but don't quit on yourself either..........enjoy the company here at the spot.......keep reading and keep posting........ know that there are many here who are praying for you in whatever ways they pray...............keep on keepin' on brother!!........................peace!

HEY JEFF, HEY JOHN............JUST SPENT SOME TIME READING YOUR LETTERS AND POSTS HERE FROM EARLIER THIS YEAR............COULD'NT FIND THE ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS THERE...........THOUGHT MAYBE YOU ARE'NT ANSWERING ME YET 'CUZ MAYBE YOU THINK YOU ALREADY HAVE................BUT, I WAS WRONG..........SO,.....I'M STILL WAITING!.....................THANKS FOR SOME KIND OF REPLY YET TO COME.....................................PEACE.

HELLO ONCE AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!........SORRY I MISSED YOU YESTERDAY...........WORK GOT IN THE WAY.............GUESS I DID'NT MISS ANY REPLIES FROM EITHER OF YOU............THAT'S OKAY...........I'M STILL HERE WAITING FOR YOU TO SAY SOMETHING............ANYTHING!................PEACE. Billy D....................have jeff and john been "beamed up" somewhere??...........are they totally incapable of speaking for themselves??...........they need you, or matthew, or cinderpelt to speak for them?? who "forced" john to post his letters here?..........who "forced" jeff to post his stuff here?...........who is responsible for the CONTENT of what they (jeff & john) and other ces "leaders" posted here?? are you?...........captain crunch??............joeoday??..........cinderpelt??............matthew??..............the fact that they (jeff & john) posted their stuff here is not the "basis" for the lawsuits.........the CONTENT of the posts is!........and, again.........who's responsible for that CONTENT??.........please don't try to shift the blame for the "fodder" from its content to where it was posted........that won't fly with me............and, i never said they "blamed anyone here" for the lawsuits..........that was cinderpelt's "fodder" problem, not mine!.......no one here is responsible for the graeser's self-righteous foolishness either........again, that's their (graeser's) problem! my "sign off of 'peace'" is in no way sarcastic.....that's your inference..........and, what you infer as "mocking and aggressive" points to your own underlying defensivenss when it comes to trying to speak up for jeff or john........in my opinion.............i did not claim that this thread was opened at "the request of ces/stf 'leadership'"...........i stated that, in response to a request from "one of them" referring to jeff or john.........to read everything they (jeff & john) posted here, and then to "please get back to them (jeff or john) and let them (jeff or john) know what i think".......i was prompted to become a member here so that i could post my thinking in this forum...........which, i have not yet done................as i said above............all i've done so far is "posted what i think are honest and pertinent questions"!............i also never said that i was asked " to lurk around gsc and report on the vibe and goings on here"!........go back and read what i wrote so you can get it straight , please.........all the pronouns, "they", "them", "their", refer to jeff and john, not "ces/stf 'leadership'"............ so,..........thanks for "looking into it"...........but first i suggest you "look into" your misunderstanding of what i wrote so you can get your pronouns straight..........and.........btw..........if you have access to wherever jeff and john have been "beamed up", maybe you can help 'em beam back down here and speak for themselves!......................................peace. dmiller..............hey there!..........fancy meetin' up with you here in the ces territory!........... i never said that ces started this forum............only that pawtucket started it to give them (ces) " a home away from twi" here at the greasespot.........it was'nt pawtucket's idea to have john, jeff, et al post all "their" stuff here..........it was paw's response to what was started by ces followers like captain crunch.... again, dmiller........it was'nt my idea for jeff or john to post here.........or for ces to air its dirty laundry here at this public website.........that was totally their (jeff & john) prerogative.............just as it's my prerogative to post questions for them (jeff & john), here in a forum "dedicated" to their organization, providing a service for them (jeff & john) and their (jeff & john), followers that even ces' own websites won't provide!.............i don't owe them a "damn thing" either, dmiller...........frankly, i've been totally disinterested in ces for more than 20 years...........until, one of them (jeff or john) called me as i've mentioned before...... i have made no "false accusations against ces" here!.............i have not criticized ces here...........as i've said before, all i've done is post some honest and pertinent questions to jeff and john......and remind them that i'm still waiting for some answers...........to quote jon lovitz, " i just wanna be loved! is that so wrong??" i have personally spoken on the phone to one of the 2 guys i'm addressing in this thread, dmiller............i was told to read the stuff i've read here in the ces in crisis forum,.....a public website, where they (jeff & john) have posted before....several times...........their preorgative. i have posted some simple, honest questions here on that same public website....................my prerogative. i'm still waiting for them to post some answers here at this public website.................my prerogative. "like it or lump it"...............dmiller's prerogative. TO POST OR NOT TO POST?.............THAT IS THE PREROGATIVE.........WHETHER 'TIS NOBLER TO SUFFER THE SLINGS AND ARROWS OF PUBLIC CRITIQUE, OR, BY IGNORING, AVOID THEM? THAT IS THE QUESTION!.....................................................................peace!

HI AGAIN!......JEFF AND JOHN.........I'M STILL HERE..........WAITING.........PATIENTLY.............HOPING.............."CONSTANTLY ABIDING" SO TO SPEAK!................HOPE THESE CAPS ARE'NT TOO LOUD FOR YOU GUYS...........I'M JUST TRYING TO GET YOU GUYS TO HEAR ME!........THAT'S ALL.............LOOKING FORWARD TO A WORD......OR A FEW.......FROM YOU.............................PEACE CINDERPELT......................hello!..........thanks for your post!..............allow me to reply............ "their replies to y'all last december were what became fodder for the lawsuits in the firstplace. so can you blame them for not adding to the stockpile?" first of all, i was not a member or poster here until september,12, 2007. so, neither jeff nor john were replying to anything i asked them.........as a matter of fact, it was jeff, john and other ces members who asked pawtucket to post their letters, and, all the other "documents" of their's here at the greasespot!....he did not approach them......they approached him!.........and.......he graciously responded by setting up this very forum for them and ces....and all those who cared to follow the "events"as they unfolded here for all to see...........john posted another letter to all here at the spot besides the "epistle" of demember, 2006, in which he implied his willingness to respond to those who posted to him here........since ces' own site no longer provided "open" forums to it's own followers.......which at one time they had done.......why did they stop??...why have they not resumed their own open forum at any of their several websites?? secondly.......their "replies" here were not what " became fodder for the lawsuits in the first place".........it was their own foolish ministry of "personal prophecy" that started it all!........they turned on themselves and their followers......no one and no posters at the greasespot prompted any of their ridiculous lawsuits against themselves!......they were and are totally responsible for that themselves!!.......and, apparently, did'nt need or want anyone else's input or encouragement to get that silliness started.......they provided the "fodder" on their own by practicing their own doctrines!.........and, when folks here at the spot asked honest questions, they were told simply......."we have a book on all that which you can buy for"...........sooo.......let's give the credit for the "fodder" to whom it belongs.......the ces leadership themselves........and stop trying to blame "us" for their behavior!! thirdly..........the reason i am asking jeff and john to reply here, is because, it was one of them who called me last winter, and asked me to "lurk" at the greasespot cafe to see everything they posted here........starting with john's letter of 12/2006...........to catch up on everything happening in their ministry.......and, then, to "please" get back to them and let them know what i thought about it all.........well, there were more pressing matters in my life requiring my attention at that time.........but i finally got to it in mid-august of this year, and i spent 3 weeks reading all the "stuff" here on this ces forum!........which is what prompted me to become a member here so that i might post my thoughts in this ces forum..........i have yet to post "what i think" about all of this..........but i have posted what i think are honest and pertinent questions of someone who asked me what i think!!.......i am responding to that request with a few questions of my own.....on a forum set up for them, at their request and specifically for their use!............i am in no way "adding to the stockpile" of anything!.....let alone their banal legal squabbles! fourthly............i am not asking them to alter their lives to include "multiple daily visits to the cafe".........i am simply providing them a chance to reply to honest questions i have asked in a forum provided for them here at the greasespot..........a forum they asked me to read........a forum they've used before...........my questions are honest and polite..............so,..........what's the problem, cinderpelt???....................and, btw,.....thanks for your concern about my cardiovascular health..........i am normotensive and usually in good humor..........enjoying my life and job enormously!!...........so, no thanks on the chill pill..........i prefer that "jagged little pill" alanis sings about when i'm posting here..............seems that one's a bit too tough for you to swallow though, cinderpelt!!.............peace.

bookfan...hi....................try asking penworks, a poster here at the spot............via pm................he/she i think can help you out.....................peace.

HELLO ONCE AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!!............THIS IS GETTING A LITTLE EMBARASSING FOR ME, GUYS!!........I WAS HOPING FOR A POST OR SOMETHING FROM EITHER OR BOTH OF YOU..........I READ ALL YOUR'S HERE IN THIS SPECIAL CES FORUM PAWTUCKET SET UP FOR YOU GUYS!!!!.........SEEMS WHEN IT WAS CONVENIENT FOR YOUR USE YOU DID USE IT!.......WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH IT NOW????..............STILL WAITING AND HOPING YOU'LL REPLY! THANKS FOR HELPIN' A BROTHER/SISTER OUT!....................PEACE! HELLO MATTHEW.............whoever you are..........feel free to tell john and/or jeff that i don't want to call you at your number..........i want them to answer my questions on this, their very own ces forum here at the greasespot cafe!!!.................they felt free to post here last december and for several weeks thereafter.......they are still free to post here...........I ALREADY HAVE JOHN'S CELL PHONE NUMBER, THANK YOU!...........won't you please let jeff and john know that i'm still patiently waiting for them to post here in ces's forum???...............why do i have to call you or john????............i did'nt have to do either to get them to post here before??........what's changed??........i'm a fellow christian.......have i offended them???.............can't they find their way "back here" like you did, matthew??...................come on man!!!................what's up???..................................................peace.

so, whitedove...............what did your first post on this thread tell us??.....that after a month of prayer at ermal's behest, "the board" convinced vic to charge for pfal in order to "make up" for the gold, frankincense and myrrh that nobody ever brought to the young mog at his birth in the new knoxville "manger"??.............and, was that meeting at ray and vera's house?? when i took pfal, the cost in dollars was $40.00 even......during my time "in", the price went from $40 to $65, to $85, to $100, to $200 briefly, back down to $100..............the "price" for the intermediate class went from $10 to $20, to $40, to $50.............the price for the advanced class was $250 when i first took it in 1972, and stayed there as far as i remember......the catch with that was how much you had to spend to get to wherever it was, room and board for the 2 weeks, time off work, etc.,...............then there were all the various "seminars".....the renewed mind, the way tree, "christian" family and sex, dealing with the adversary, witnessing and undershepherding..............summer school.....which pretty much ended in 1974............family camps...........starting in 1971, the rock of ages........then a series of advanced class "specials"...........pfal '77....hearbeat festivals.....weekends in the word..........word in business...........ac '79............ limb meetings..advances.............40th anniversary weekends (region-wide meetings in 1981-82).........living victoriously in june, 1982..........sound out '84............all major money makers in and of themselves.....above and beyond the weekly abs collections, bookstore sales, bequests, special gifts to the bot consisting of choice real estate, large cash donations as "designated gifts", private art, stamp, coin and precious metals collections, properties like emporia, rome city, gunnison, tfi in ca, lead in tinney, nm, 3 custom motorcoahes, ambassador one, acts 2, vic's personal silver lincoln continental limo, harry's cadillacs, limb homes in various states, the kipp farm and several other properties in and around new knoxville, the cultural center in new bremen,...etc., etc., etc.,................quite a collection despite no gold, frankincense and myrrh, eh??........... so.........was this all the fruit of cramming the way tree down the throats of the faithful??.........is this what you were asking for on this thread, oakspeare?? i've lost track..........................................peace.

HI AGAIN JEFF AND JOHN, BROTHERS IN CHRIST!..........SORRY I'M A LITTLE LATE TODAY........THOUGHT YOU MIGHT ENJOY A LITTLE EXTRA TIME TO COMPOSE A POST OR TWO TODAY!............GUESS NOT................YET..........................I'M PATIENTLY WAITING.....................STILL.............................PEACE.

the further details you have shared, wrdsandwrks............are absolutely mindblowing..............how was the dancing prez treated when he had "medical opportunities"???..............i guess that's just another "divine secret" locked away behind the walls of the promised land of the present truth (sic!)!........i'm sure, almighty mog that he WAS.......his kids never once got sick, did they??..............or his "wife"?? what's cruelly ironic in liz's story, is that earl-da-pearl was head of the finance dept.!......he "started" the way credit union!......another "tool" for the use and benefit of god's people!......next to howard allen, he had the "final say" on financial decisions regarding staff needs, etc...................certainly no expense was spared when the "big shots" got sick!!!.....who paid for harry's surgeries and cancer treatments before he died??...............how 'bout vic's surgery for the occular melanoma?.....his prosthesis?......the bottles of tylenol #3 with codeine, ms-contin, etc. that appeared like "the never ending cruse of oil"???...........who paid for all that drambuie and the rest of the booze???? but if you were just some little interim corps "schlepp" like danny.....no offense meant danny!.............it was ok for way builders to poison you and then leave you to your own devices regarding the hospital bills they caused.............that's when the "super spiritual, heart" people like townsend and burton were let loose to blame the injured and abandon a brother or sister in christ in his/her time of genuine need!!!................the great "heart" they came up with was to condemn you for "getting tricked"........and teach you "a lesson" in real believing!!!......................"woe be unto you, scribes and pharisees! hypocrites!" thanks again wrdsandwrks.....and you too, danny.....for going "on the record"......................"the arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice"....(MLK). peace!...................

Hello Eagle! i have not read your book......was not aware of it until reading your post................but, since you asked, here's my opinion..............what is YOUR thinking regarding mentioning vic's name?.....it makes sense to me, that, if you are exposing what you consider to be wrong or false doctrine that vic was the major proponent of, then it makes perfect sense to "credit" these doctrines to the man who conjured them up!.........as you mentioned, this couple never suggested you not mention bullinger's or lamsa's name??.....why not??........seems THEY...(the couple)...are the ones who have yet to put twi behind them and not you!! again, i don't know what your purpose is, but whatever it is, it's YOUR"S.......not their's or twi's!!.......sounds to me like they're still hung up in some kind of wierwille "apologeia"...............are they related to vic???...............if they are,....you've already shown respect and deference to them by witholding the multitude of facts regarding vic's perverted, sociopathic and narcissistic behavior toward god's children, his brothers and sisters in christ!............do they have a personal agenda that is at cross-purposes with the "agenda" of your book?.............DO YOU, as the author, see the need to edit out his name and produce a second edition of your book??...........if so,.....then, imo, you should edit out ethelbert's and gerorge's names too, in order to assure editorial honesty and fairness, no? if you think that editting out wierwille's name would broaden the appeal of your book.....increase its marketability...........then, that is a valid editorial decision that you, as the author and publisher can make...........but.......is that what the purpose of your book is??? anyway, eagle.....thanks for asking for our opinions................that's mine.................for what it's worth..................................peace.

Hi Whitedove!................interesting post! this december, 1958 meeting you are referring to here............was that at ray and vera's house?...............i assume that "the board" referred to in the notes, is the board of directors, not the board of trustees.......is that correct? since this meeting took place in december, 1958....and, pfal was not filmed until late 1967,........again, i assume that it is referring to the "live teaching" versions of pfal extant at that time,...........is that correct? and, lastly,.......what point are you making to us by posting these notes from that 1958 meeting on this "way tree" thread?......would you be kind enough to elaborate a little for us on that?..............................thanks!.....................................peace.

Hi WrdsandWrks!.................another gutwrenching tale from the land of the prevailing truth.......only this was way before even that horror was alive and stalking the church!! please excuse me waw for taking it upon myself to answer a question from another poster.............EB is earl burton............a real little mean wuss of a man.......never the trunk coordinator.......at the time of this gutless act of "spiritual" terrorism....the assistant to the secretary-treasurer of twi back then, howard allen...and member of the glorious president's cabinet!!...........the same hypocrite who had no trouble at all buying the medications his poor little wife needed to ease her panic attacks and depression as she tried to deal with the horrors she was stowing away in her memory!!..........did'nt drop her off at the brc for some green tea or grace bliss magic potion!!............nope!.....she got the full course of all her "mother's little helpers" did'nt she, earl???................you see....when waw's friend got sick....she was a weak little nobody stuck in some kind of "unbelieving funk"............worthy of being dumped at the brc to fend for herself........... but when nancy's conscience started getting to her......she got drugs.......no expense spared there!!.........only the best for "god's best" first corps stepford wife!!!! how sad wrdsandwrks.............i too hope one day you'll come across your beloved sister in christ............next time you can recommend her to some coffee here at the greasespot instead of some poison at the hands of twi!!...............sadly, the purity of your heart and hers was abused by the very "ministry" you each trusted.............god's keeping track!........he knows the purity of your hearts......as well as the fear and self-serving pomposity of those who abused that purity!!! thanks for "going on the record" here at the spot, wrdsandwrks.................................peace.

HEY THERE, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!..........HOW ARE YOU GUYS TONIGHT??................ANY IDEA WHEN YOU MIGHT DROP ME A NOTE HERE??? STILL WONDERING!!!!......................HOPING TO SEE A POST FROM EITHER OF YOU SOMETIME!........................................PEACE.

HI THERE ONCE AGAIN, JEFF AND JOHN!!!...............SURE WAS A NICE SPORTS SUNDAY TODAY, WAS'NT IT??...............JUST CHECKING IN TO SEE IF EITHER OF YOU HAS CHOSEN TO REPLY..............I GUESS NOT TODAY................OK...........I'M STILL HERE WAITING.................................PEACE.

Hi Oakspeare!.......and hi to all who have posted on this thread................. i copied the above post from another thread to save some time.........the "revelation" of the way tree was given to vic, according to him,.......in order to establish the administrative structure of twi...............as i stated above......no one in the "early" daze of the way east.....where i got "involved" with twi in late 1970.......really ever heard much about it..........steve and sandi heefner were our "leaders"......he was the only "ordained" clergyman in the way east when he came to us.......ordained in november, 1970 if i remember correctly.....along with john lynn and boob moyihan by vic at new knoxville at a special sns.........btw, steve was ....imo.....a really great guy!.......to this day i regret not being able to offer more tangible support to him and sandi when they were fired by vic during the ac in rye, ny in april of 1972..............this was not too long after jim and judy doop were fired publicly from the way west during "the way presents" fiasco in ca...........steve was a genuine minister and friend....and he was NOT wrong!........as another interesting side note, it was chris geer who provided the "inside" covert support for vic in all the shenanigans they pulled to fire steve during that ac........his reward was to be made the lc in massachusetts in june of '72!!..... as i stated in the previous post, it was john townsend who was "pranced out" to teach the way tree seminar on video, not fugit......fugit was the "evangelist" who taught the first video seminar on witnessing and undershepherding, which was later replaced by a seminar of the same name, filmed during "living victoriously" in june, 1982 including vince finnegan and ralph dubofsky as the teachers........the real push for formalizing and establishing the way tree structure in twi began in the spring of 1972.....as i stated above, in order to "lock in" vic's absolute control over the leadership and money............especially the money.............prior to the spring of '72......all the 'limbs"......i.e. the way west, the way east, etc.,............were independent "corporations"..........each "limb" decided on its own how much money wouyld be "abundantly shared" with "the farm" in nk........as did each area or branch decide how much it would send to the limb.........all expenses (like rent, salaries, cars, gas, "petty cash", refreshments for meetings, etc., etc.,).......were handled by and at the local level by the local leaders........all decisions regarding allocation of the money were made at the local levels......until......the ominous spring of '72................this was when hq in nk became the vatican of twi......the only rule for faith and practice......no more questions!!!!....... the info provided by johnj in his post on this thread augments the facts surrounding the "circling of the wagons" by vic and da boyz in '72......btw.....the "original" bot was established in 1957, when vic and harry incorporated the way after getting the ancestral family farm to be "the ministry's" after vic "left" the church in van wert................the board of directors never really wielded much real power over the corporation other than "nominally".........from '57-69........basically "rubber stamping" what vic, harry and ermal decided with occasional disputes over money..............but the bylaws of the corporation from 1957 clearly gave final say to the original 3 bot members...............this was totally "etched in stone" by early '71 if not earlier............. so, when the money became "serious" by 1972,.....vic made sure he and harry were totally in control of ALL OF IT!..........hence the teaching and institutionalization of the way tree provided them the exclusive authority to control doctrine, practice and (most importantly) ALL THE MONEY that twi had..............

I think wordwolf and belle have hit on the 2 major "ideological" tipping points regarding why vic really pushed the consolidation and eventual "denominationalization" of twi doctrines.........from a chronological perspective, i think the tipping point came in the spring of 1972, when vic pranced out john townsend as the "frontman" for the teaching and establishment , the "formalization" of the way tree.........prior to that time, there were only "fellowships", not twigs........we were'nt "joining twi".......there was no twi,.....it was "the way, inc."....back then........."the way ministry"........the brc had the word "ecumenical" stamped on its dedicatory placque, hung at the main entrance.........we were "getting into the word",........becoming "born-again christians"............."getting into the ministry".........which back in 1970......(when i "got in")......consisted of, "headquarters", in new knoxville ("the farm").....the way west, the way east, the way of north carolina (the ecu crowd, et al), the way of kansas (primarily fugit in wichita, followed shortly by townsend),...the way of indiana, the way of ohio, and the way of australia............after the "summer school"....sessions of 1969 and 1970, at hq........things really began mushrooming all over the states..........in the way east, we went from nothing in early 1970 to thousands of "grads" all over the northeast........hundreds of classes, hundreds of thousands of dollars in "tithes and offerings, bookstore sales, class registration "donations"....etc., etc.,..... the only "formal doctrines" were the foundational, intermediate and advanced classes (with accompanying syllabi), "the collaterals" (a collection of about 62 pamphlets, including "pamphlet" versions of christians should be prosperous and adan) and whatever notes people took at summer school and/or family camps!!!........the structure was incredibly "loose" compared to what many came to know in the years following the spring of '72!!!............thousands of details are flying through my mind right now.......but, suffice it to say.......the incredible increase in cashflow and "membership" provided a major windfall for vic and the boys in nk!!!..........in 1972, vic "brought it all home" to the farm.......way east and way west leaders were axed with the various "rumors" of misuse of the money, "ego problems" and not "listeneing to the man of god" at headquarters.............almost over night, "blue forms" appeared, all money was deposited directly into newly established "limb" bank accounts.....fellowships became twigs, branches, areas and limbs with "leadership" ordained and appointed by headquarters and then "down the tree"........going wow and corps was now the only "right" way of moving the word and growing "spiritually"........vic consolidated financial and doctrinal control over "his ministry" centralizing and dictating all in and from new knoxville!!!......he was our "father in the word" now.....not merely "the teacher" any more........suddenly there were new seminars, jcing became the "big deal" in 1973........and the money just kept pouring in!!.......if you did'nt line up with hq, you were "out of fellowship".......usually "possessed",....."tripped out"......the pfal series was dogmatized, the way tree institutionalized and the "way ministry" was denominationalized into "the way international"!!! so, to gain and maintain control over the leadership and the money,......vic went about full force giving twi it's unique identity, tatooing his way over "the way", his teachings over "the word" and his lifestyle upon the "followers of the way".........the doctrine became "written in stone" and its purest form was available only from "the farm",through "the teacher", our newly crowned "father in the word"....bringing new light to our generation by formalizing all the stuff he plagerized, stole and "received from god" into HIS ministry.......and personal "cash cow"!!!.............hence "the scarcity" of the "rightly-divided word, as it has'nt been taught since the first century".....became an ever more necessary "club" in the hands of the apostle vic used to bludgeon the identity of his ministry into the hungry minds of his faithful "grads".......the spurious doctrines hinted at in the pfal series now became books, seminars, research projects, films, public ex's, rock of ages, etc., etc.,....ad infinitum!.................so....the "WHEN"......as far as "putting some teeth into the ministry".......imo........truly was in the spring of 1972 with the imposition of the way tree structure upon those who were formerly simply "followers of the way".............what a toxic spring that turned out to be!!!!..........................peace.

Hi Bliss!..............thanks for another enlightening post!............ I am grateful to you for giving us a little more context regarding your current relationship with boob and doody..........i apologize if any of my indignation toward them "spilled over" in your direction.............please know that you most certainly were not the "object" of my opinions of them.....sorry if i came across that way..........i was not aware of your family situation requiring you to maintain a "restrained" communication with the moynihan's.......i fully understand why you choose to interact with them in the manner you do...........hopefully, one day,....your family will be able to extricate themselves from twi's undo influence upon them.........unfortunately, i am aware of so much crap the moynihan's have pulled in their long and sorry history with twi, that when i'm reminded of them i still get pi$$ed off...........they have been willfully complicit with vic and the dancing prez in the cruel abuse of HUNDREDS of innocent christians, leading to the sad destruction of far too many lives and marriages!!..........and, yes......god is their judge......but justice demands they are continually confronted NOW as long as there are any of us in the position to do so...............i am in a position to do so........you are not..............thanks for your patience with me............and for your love and patience for your family...........nothing is worth any separation from your family in this life........i will pray for your family........i commend you for your wisdom and strength to keep your family "together" despite the claws of twi!..........................................peace.

LOL!!..............Bolshevik...............sounds like a plan, dude!!!...............another great sports sunday not wasted at the way!!!.............................peace.

HEY THERE ROSALIE!!! Well......................tomorrow's the big day!!..............sorry you did'nt like any of the many good suggestions posted on this thread for you!!..........apparently, you decided not to accept any of our ideas, from what i can tell from your website(s)...........i'm including that new one that our fellow poster oakspeare showed us........ sorry.........but from what i can see from your sites.....you so need our help!!!.........whatever "minds" are left out there behind your sugarwalls of zion are in dire need of help!!........you have no sense of shame or self-respect left..........understandably.....lying so loudly for so long must take its toll..............but really............come on!!!!..............please.....for the sake of anything...turn on your tv, radio, cellphone or computer!!...........please!!!! We greasespotters sure tried............................your loss!!................oh well,............happy 65th anyway!!

oopps....................wrong thread...............sowwy!