WordWolf

The numbers depend on who you ask, and specifically what you mean by the question. twi has been hemorraging members since the late 80s, and has undergone consistent SHRINKAGE since then. Technically, the group is still around, but it's been dying, and continues to die. the only thing that's keeping twi around right now is that the closing of the doors completely means the assets of the group can't be divided among the lovers of filthy lucre running the show. So, they have to keep the group existing on paper-which means they have to have some kind of physical group- while they live off the investments and current monies and privileges of twi. (How many of us have private cooks, maid service, a private boat with people upkeeping it for us for free, etc etc?) Apparently, Walter's still going to do it as long as he can manage. He's got a way to make a comfortable living, and he has fans. It's hard to turn away from something like that and either get a real job, or undergo more formal vetting and get credentials like more pedestrian Christian researchers. He probably thinks he's too old to try, and has no need to bother since people are still paying money for the current stuff. BTW, it should come as no shock to GSC'ers that terms like "moving the Word" and "body of Christ" effectively have different meanings when used by ex-twi'er groups and individuals. Here's how they are explained if asked: "moving the Word"- teaching the Bible "body of Christ"- all born-again Christians everywhere Sounds nice- but it's a sham. Here's how they are used IN PRACTICE: "moving the Word"- teaching the twi-type package of doctrine and practices. Thus, sola scriptura Christians around the world don't count as "moving the Word", only ex-twi'ers. "body of Christ"- those Christians associated, even tenuously, with ex-twi organizations. Thus, sola scriptura Christians around the world don't count when one is considering the movements in "the body of Christ." I remember when this was first pulled. The terms were CLAIMED to mean the former-but were in effect used to mean the latter. All ex-twi'ers were claimed to be in "the organization" called "the body of Christ" of whom the head was "Christ." And that's ALL that was said about organization. However, that was obviously denial even then. We were getting together on a statewide basis once a year. That was not a meeting simply of "the body of Christ" because almost NONE of the actual body of Christ in that state even HEARD about the meeting. Only those ex-twi'ers who were in the body of Christ heard of it, and so on. (Although, technically, nobody was refused attendance on that basis, AFAIK.) However, apparently, that's still going on decades later. Christians are separating themselves from virtually 100% of all other living Christians, while saying they're all in the body of Christ. Me, I'm happy to associate with other Christians so long as we can all get along and avoid fights. (And I'm happy to say that's worked out well when I wished it to, most of the time.)

Actually, Waysider, the majority of those examples are supposedly mortals incidental to a religion (like Adonis) who were claimed to have been made immortal for some purpose- and who is taken away to live amongst the gods immediately. So, no eyewitness accounts of people interacting with them- they exit the story and all evidence of any special treatment exits with them. In each of the cases, the actual historical existence of such a person who was granted immortality and came back to earth is not supported nor even supposed. The idea that someone (like Jesus) actually coming back and interacting with lots of eyewitnesses for over a month is controversial, and is singular in actually being supported by the eyewitnesses. We had people claiming to have personally interacted with him afterwards, who insisted on maintaining this account even when facing painful death for claiming it. It's difficult to find people willing to face certain death on account of supporting a claim they KNOW to be a lie (like "I saw him alive and interacted with him.) So, claims for similar people who are documented to have existed are pretty sparse. I imagine you can find a nut here and there, but not whole bunches of people all holding to such a story. Meanwhile, can we leave this discussion for the Doctrinal forum and return to this thread's subject?

An inability to distinguish from a singer and musician who gives the correct legally-required (and morally-mandated) credit to those whose work he uses from a man who plagiarized the work of others, put it forth as his own, and set himself up as the sole authority on understanding God in his time is forgivable, but sad. Presentation is not the issue, and never was. The whole idea that vpw was presenting the work of others is, generally, the truth. All the best of "vpw's" teachings were taken directly from the work of others. If that was stated at the beginning, we'd have been FINE with that. (I bought Bullinger's "The Two Natures" at the same time I bought V1nce F's booklet on the same subject, and bought both Woodrow's "Babylon Mystery Religion" and Hislop's "The Two Babylons", from which it was taken.) So, there's moral and legal issues with how vpw presented himself as the source of the material. He said it was a collaboration between him and God Almighty and that he threw out all his other theological materials. Yet those were exactly where he got all "his" stuff. "That doesn't make him God." Where did that enter this conversation? He got that from Oral Roberts-whose work vpw sometimes derided (when he wasn't stealing from it), not Bullinger. Hard to keep track of all the people vpw ripped off sometimes, isn't it? The "Red Thread" was an Oral Roberts specialty. "So what?" Some friend of yours can do a fair job telling jokes, and says they're all his. Then you hear of George Carlin and realize he's doing all George's material. Would you be willing to pay to see your friend telling "his" jokes, and say "so what" when someone says Carlin's playing downtown? That's a subject as trivial as comedy. When it comes to the Bible, the stakes are much higher. Is your standard "clone the work of others and spit them back", or is it "make the material your own and actually understand it"? vpw made a number of fundamental errors as the result of just repeating what he heard or read, and not understanding it first. Are you going to settle for that in your OWN life? Sounds like a load of horse-manure to me. This "the only reason you ever listened to vpw was because you were brainwashed" thing is a fiction. Few, if any, ever made a claim anything like that. (There's always some nut on the fringe somewhere.) NONE of us ever CLAIMED it, but John can make it up to pretend we invented such silliness. And for an encore, a second fiction- "Do you really believe he was of the devil?" No, but it's odd for you to bring that up at all. Are YOU having doubts about that one?

Actually, it's a measure of inability to actually read what's written (and UNDERSTAND what's written) at the GSC that gets exposed here. It's been long known at the GSC-and it's come up quite a bit- that there have always been some people who drank the twi kool-aid so deeply that to this day they refuse to consider any other POV and still extoll twi stuff as the greatest ever produced. That anyone can read and post here more than a decade and not know this (or even understand how to use the Quote feature) is a sad statement, but true. Yet twi'ers can't tell what's broken and what isn't. Leonard's stuff wasn't "broken", and Bullinger's stuff wasn't "broken", but I've seen people post that they still insist vpw's ripoffs of both are superior to the originals. So, those weren't "broken", and yet vpw "had to fix them." What about what vpw actually taught? Supposedly, it was just said this wasn't "broken" and doesn't need "fixing." This is the same stuff that says that if a man announces that he's going to be dead at this time next year, that God Almighty will have to change the laws of the universe if He wants to prevent this. "Because it's a LAW." This is the same stuff that said "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king" in clear violation of the Mosaic Law. Do I need to keep going on about all the things that are OBVIOUSLY "broken" about twi dogma and vpw dogma and need "fixing"? And these are all WELL-KNOWN. Yet, "vpw said it, that settles it, I believe it." If vpw said it, then by definition it apparently CAN'T be "broken" and can't need "fixing." vpw's stuff is blatantly "broken", vpw's stuff blatantly needs "fixing", and those unable to see this are also "broken" and need "fixing." God's Word stands forever in spite of vpw's dogma contradicting it blatantly in some places and labelling it incorrectly in others. And to hear some people, vpw was the apex of understanding and sealed up the sum. To a few, he was "OVER-GIFTED" with "an overabundance of brains and brawn." Of course, this didn't happen overnight. People needed to be brought to this point SLOWLY, and in SMALL STEPS. Eventually, all the small steps got them to the point where vpw was an expert on everything, and no one else can teach the Bible better, and no one can overhaul his error-ridden theology because his error-ridden theology has no fundamental errors. Small steps, tiny increments, and people got there. Some still live there. That's not news, but it is sad.

for the original poster, I think that's your answer right there. I'll explain for the studio audience..... The original poster is looking for recommendations for books to offer to innies. This poster's all set to pass judgement on people even though he obviously doesn't know anything about them. That's the standard twi thing. Anyone not in twi-mode? Obviously, they are inferior to twi-mode people. What's the difference between us and them? They're glassy-eyed robots and close-minded. And don't explore their doctrine, do things the twi way only. lcm was fond of saying that people who served the devil (or served "the adversary", since twi couldn't call him the same thing anyone else did) frequently accused others of the things they themselves do. It's pretty much standard policy that twi'ers (and those in twi mode who learned twi mode from twi) that they do things, then accuse those who don't do them of doing them- while denying that THEY do them. In a practical sense, that means when someone in twi mode accuses others of never examing doctrine, but responding by going into glassy-eyed robotics, that means that person's all but admitting that's their standard operating procedure. twi mode people are very predictable, since independent thought leads to unpredictability. So, for the original poster, it's obvious that people who WANT to be in twi will be robotic in response. If he doesn't want to waste his money on such a book, he should give it to someone wbo's already willing to consider that twi's answers are grossly inefficient and directing them to drive their life straight into a ditch and keep it there. Otherwise, even the most brilliant written work won't be read, and if it's read, it will be by someone lacking understanding. Actually, I've found it's possible to take off-topic, pro-twi meanderings, and use them to address the current topic. Since pro-twi, off-topic meanderings are pretty much all variations on a few limited themes, if you've seen one, to a degree, you've seen them all. So, I found how to use them despite the intent of the meander-er. :)

It is. Go.

"I'm king of the world!"

This should be old news. His wife spoke from the stage at the ROA '89. She spoke for maybe 10 minutes. She twice referred to lcm as "our spiritual leader" and once as "our spiritual head." 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Well, she did all lcm's thinking (when any was done), and rfr did HER thinking. So, in twi, it was something like "the head of the woman is the man, and the head of every man is craig, and the head of craig is donna, and the head of donna is rosalie, and Christ and God say whatever we want them to." It sure would be nice to hear an honest confession of that...

So much for all that stuff in pfal about living as long as we will as a result of our believing.... Sheesh, it's reasonably well-known. Any Calvin and Hobbes fan should recognize that as Karl Marx. (A Sunday comic quoted Marx on the subject.) Doesn't surprise me- vpw was so used to not getting caught plagiarizing things that evemtually he figured nobody would ever catch him on using anything ever.

Ok, that I can actually remember from one line. That should be ANIMAL HOUSE.

Yes you do. Probably ZZ Top's best known hit. Your turn.

It's not a first line, but it's an 80s song, so that's not in the ballpark.

"They come a-running just as fast as they can"

Robin Williams Good Morning Vietnam Robert Wuhl

For the most part, a certain level of education was a cutoff in twi. If your education exceeded a certain point, you were discouraged. That point generally was "know enough on a subject to be able to document that twi's top idiot who's making things up as he;s going along is completely wrong." In twi, vpw was assumed to be correct no matter WHAT he said, as if he was some sort of expert on EVERYTHING. vpw DID put himself forth as an expert on everything- he had opinions on all subjects and expounded at length whether or not he actually UNDERSTOOD the subject. lcm did the same and moreso. He was easier to catch at it because vpw KNEW he was conning people and deceiving them. lcm was convinced vpw was telling the truth and following correct policies, so he never tried to moderate his tactics. He was upfront and direct with his nonsense- which makes it easier to detect. Honestly, was there ever a statement on, for example, world history, US foreign policy, or US history from either of them that was completely accurate? vpw quoted the Liberty Lobby and other nuts, spoke against Holocaust history (as did lcm) and spouted various bits of nonsense from his favorite authors. As long as he had a source, he ran with it. lcm was twice as nutty, and didn't need even 1 nut to write things down first. Anyone remember his rant about the Pope's aircraft carrier?

Got it- "The Joker", Steve Miller Band?

Robert Preston the Music Man Ron Howard

Heh. Put that together with some of the more obvious examples of how twi contradicts Scripture, and even the most diehard kool-aid drinker will have to admit he's suppressing his thinking processes in order to stay in.

Correct. Your turn.

Ok, let's pretend it was officially confirmed so we can move this along. "I thought I heard her calling my name now"

Hey, hey, congratulations! I'm delighted for both of you.

It was. It's not Oscar material, but it's worth watching. It has some drama, some funny moments, etc. It's a little of a lot of things. Go, George!

In fact, most of it takes place due South of the Continental US.

Bingo.

Hints: This movie, mostly, does not take place in the U.S. It stars Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts.