WordWolf

"Diamond Dave" Lee Roth's "Just a Gigolo".

"Billy Madison?"

vpw was a conman who could bs convincingly. His OTHER skills were lacking. He wanted to turn preaching into a business. He succeeded through hijacking and plagiarizing. He ripped off what he saw. He ripped off the books of others to make "his" books. He ripped off the classes of another to make "his" class, supplemented by plagiarizing the books of others and adding it to that class. (Initially, "his" class was a Leonard's class with his name in front.) Once he had a product, he needed a flock to fleece. He had limited success with regular people. However, once he saw there were young people with Christian ideals, idealism, and casual attitudes towards physical contact, he used all his skills to recruit as much of their movement (the Jesus People) as possible. (Remember, part of his trip was about ORGIES-that's why he asked D00p about them specifically and in detail, asking for more information than D00p had and ignoring D00p's comments about being glad to be delivered from that sort of thing. He also told D00p is was ok with God and tried to use a Bible verse to rationalize it.) There's no current movement of idealistic youth to draw from. The current climate now includes THE INTERNET- so if twi finds kids, those kids can find out all about twi and read what I'm telling you now. So, twi can't repeat the past because the past is gone, and there's no pool of undereducated (can't find out about twi), idealistic Christian youth to draw from, apart from twi lacking anyone with the sheer skill at chicanery and flimflam that vpw had. Most people can't lie, con, and deceive as convincingly as he did. Exactly- twi has nothing to offer NEW followers except stifling control. Very few people actually WANT stifling control. twi offers the same to OLD followers, with a big dose of nostalgia and "we are the sole holders of the truth". Eventually, this won't work because the OLD followers are getting OLDER. twi lost 80% of its followers 1985-1990, then lost more people in the late 1990s when then tightened the vise on people's lives. With a few people leaving every year, and virtually no one joining, the average age (mean, median and mode) of twi'ers goes steadily up, up, up. The GSC actually gets more new people than twi does, and we don't go recruiting! Eventually, twi will be composed of elderly people in the top seats (instead of just rfr being the only elderly), supervising a staff of elderly, who pass along orders to the elderly rank-and-file all over the USA. I don't think it will take much longer, either. It's been 20 years since they lost most of their numbers. The last people to join were soon after that (in any real numbers), and were in their 20s. Those people are now in their 40s, whether or not they're still in twi. Those who were in charge in the 1990s were in their 30s-50s, which means they're now in their 50s to 70s, whether or not they're in twi. So, we now have people in their 50s to 70s overseeing people in their 40s to 70s, with a few feeble attempts to garner enough children of them in one place to displace water in a hot tub, let alone look like there's significant numbers of THEM. Then again, much the same can be said for most of the splinter groups...

Exactly! Then again, vpw never did have any actual TRAINING or EXPERIENCE with the kinds of programs he claimed to set up. He went to school, but was never in any sort of PROGRAM to teach leadership experience, or counseling, or anything else Christians expect from those who claim to be there to lead them. He also invoked references to the military with "his" program, but he also had no experience THERE, either, which is why "his" programs lacked any resemblance to the POSITIVES of being in the military. The only thing he had there were a few aphorisms about OBEYING WHEN GIVEN AN ORDER. In fact, over time, they did NOTHING to correct any of those things. There were additions to give people experience in HITCHHIKING, in optional training as a rodeo clown or bronco-riding or whatever, and in rock climbing, but no improvements along the lines one would actually use when dealing with Christians. The only "professional" training the corps ever got was Dale Carnegie training in SALES. That should make it obvious what the priorities were in training "leaders" in twi- they were to be professional SALESPEOPLE.

Small wonder vpw REDEFINED THE MEANING OF THE WORD "APOSTLE". When he was done, their personal witnessing wasn't an issue. Honestly, though, I see "apostle" as "sent one." Wherever vpw plagiarized "his" definition from, I find it interesting and irrelevant. Then again, when one is "sent", it raises the question of who "sent" them and how....

He pulled the entire content of the comma thing from Bullinger's work. vpw was fond of making up stories, or grabbing other people's life experience and claiming it for his own. If you read "TW:LiL", you'll see he'd claimed to "preach to the trees" when growing up, despite an absence of witnesses and of any PIETY when growing up. This story was lifted from BILLY GRAHAM's life- Billy did that to try to overcome shyness. He also made claims about a pair of imaginary businessmen who were generous in charity donations while being hated by their community they donated to, who got things done by sitting alone in a room and THINKING about them without actually DOING anything about them. Yes-if something was good enough TO PLAGIARIZE, THEN he listened to it, otherwise, you might as well not even bother with him.

If this show never appeared in syndication, then I never saw it. My television-watching days started in the 1970s. I'm wondering if it was something like "Spy-Smasher" or "Mister Scarlet". One or both of them had a short-lived television show. This wasn't an ANIMATED show, right?

*wild swing* "Sledge Hammer?"

twi and its affiliates thereof- and the Word-Faith movement in general- mistake 2 similar things for each other, with catastrophic results. A) Trusting God. Believing God's promises, believing the Bible. Those are good things we're supposed to do. (If you take the Bible as your standard.) B) Exerting a mental "believing-force" on reality to bend it to your whims- or worse, exerting a mental "believing-force" on God Almighty to bend HIM to your whim, believing He's some sort of Divine Genie, but only after your Believing has roughed Him up or put Him in his place. One is not the other. God doesn't need any more power than He already has. Go ahead and pray and trust God. If bad things happen, it's because this is a fallen world, and the sun and the rain fall on everyone, not because you failed somehow to exert sufficient "believing-force" to prevent it to happen.

Yes. These were all quotes from fairly early in "the Princess Bride." Here's where they were said. "We are but poor, lost circus performers. Is there a village nearby?" Vizzini's first line to the princess, before abducting her. "I wonder if he's using the same wind we are using." Inigo Montoya, wondering about the ship behind them that kept gaining on them over time. "Did I make it clear that your JOB is at stake?" Vizzini yelling at Fezzik, about how much faster he wanted to move up the Cliffs of Insanity/ "He has very good arms." Fezzik, when seeing the Man in Black managed to get handholds once the rope was cut. "You are wonderful!" "Thank you. I've worked hard to become so." Inigo Montoya and the Man in Black.

"We are but poor, lost circus performers. Is there a village nearby?" "I wonder if he's using the same wind we are using." "Did I make it clear that your JOB is at stake?" "He has very good arms." "You are wonderful!" "Thank you. I've worked hard to become so."

No.

Millions of years old, possibly billions. I really don't care the specifics once we get past one million. Like Genesis, I don't think the exact number matters much in the discussion. I'm aware there's "young earth Creationists" out there, but I think they reflect a misunderstanding of both science AND Scripture, and poor scholarship towards both. We know from science that the Earth APPEARS very old, millions or billions of years old. That means the Earth either IS millions of years old (or older), or that the Earth is younger but was created to APPEAR millions of years old (or older.) Either answer, technically, fits the evidence. Personally, I reject the second position because I don't think that evidence exists purely to exist, and that we're designed to at least ATTEMPT to be logical, and were given a logical universe and a logical planet to work with. (I begin with those presumptions. Some people begin with those, some begin with others. These are mine.) Those who think the scientific evidence reflects a young Earth, IMHO, lack an understanding of the scientific evidence, ignore the limitations of some things, and completely disregard the most reliable methods of determination. I think that's a shame.

I think God's going to exceed our understanding. I think God's not going to sweat all the hours we put into this "Trinitarians are idolators!" "Kill the non-Trinitatian heathen" business, except as wasted time where Christian went for the throat of Christian. We were warned long ago that biting and devouring each other runs the risk of us being the consumed ones. Hasn't stopped Christians from killing each other over this and other subjects senselessly. What a misuse of free will, to kill other Christians while their mutual enemy laughs at both!

Physically, none of us is perfect. It's personal belief that each Christian (and I see I Corinthians 12 and 14 agreeing with this) has certain strengths and areas where they lack strength. Begin teaching a room of Christians on any subject, and I think several will say "What?", several will say "Hm," several will say "AHA!" and several will say "Well, of course!" Some, as soon as you begin an introduction, will begin "connecting the dots". That's personal inclination, interests, and personality. Account for that, and-even if all Christians HAVE been give an identical Spirit with 9 or more POTENTIAL enablements- you'll see an incredible variety on what they do and how they do it. Heck, just take the subject of Divine Revelation/word of knowledge, and how they'll approach the subject will vary widely...

As you figured out, you missed a lot. Some of it you missed because you weren't in the room when the recorders were turned off- a LOT of things were said by vpw and staff and were never committed to paper. (Among the things you missed were risking life-and-limb in the LEAD program by hitchhiking and then going up sides of mountains with undereducated guides. Most people survived without injury, but that doesn't account for hitchhikers raped, or those suffering permanent injury during the wilderness section.) Some of it you missed, however, because they were never even spoken. vpw's "material" was all plagiarized from other Christians. (Occasionally he mentioned a source, usually he did not.) I have no problem with a Christian being an "eclecticist", and borrowing from the styles of others. In fact, I RECOMMEND it. (Everyone has their strengths and can teach you something.) However, vpw hid his sources and claimed it was the results of his skills and receiving revelation from God Almighty entirely. In case you're wondering about the names, most of what we've been able to find were: EW Bullinger: the administrations/dispensations, the systematic study of Scripture, number in Scripture, Witness of the Stars, all the usages of "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament, all the content in the book "How to Enjoy the Bible" (4 sessions of pfal's 12 right there.) Bullinger was unique in that his name was not hidden for much of his work- but it was NEVER mentioned in conjunction with many other works. 2 of his books were basically put together without attribution and called "vpw's" book "Are the Dead Alive Now?" BG Leonard: the Holy Spirit field in general, and the format of a class. vpw took Leonard's CTC class on Gifts of the Spirit. Later the same year, he asked Leonard permission to teach Leonard's class once locally. Leonard permitted it. vpw sent him a photo of the students for Leonard's scrapbook then stopped communicating with him. Meanwhile, vpw told "his" students that this was "his" class on "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." It was a photocopy of Leonard's class in every way, and was modified over time into the pfal class most people took. Leonard is the one who taught on "the other 6 manifestations". vpw's lack of understanding on them while continuing to teach on them is why twi's understanding on the subjects were pretty shallow. JE Stiles: the book "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" was Stiles' book on "the Gift of the Holy Spirit", with additions from Bullinger and Leonard. Stiles was the man who led vpw into speaking in tongues the first time. EW Kenyon: the Word-Faith subject- which other Christians have plagiarized from Kenyon as well. It's why you're personally blamed by some Christians when bad things happen to you. (They're comforters as miserable as those Job faced.) A handful of other Christians were used- vpw copied THIS man's style, and THAT man's radio show, and so on. He even went outside Christian circles. He had a phone hotline to "the Liberty Lobby" we never heard about. vpw would listen to their ultraconservative, fictionalized fears of the current state of the Union, and then speak of their claims, freely making "predictions" of doom and making sure other people all claimed vpw was getting those from God by revelation, not man by technology. (vpw often lied by omission more than lying by direct statement, then led people to believe he'd said ONE thing when he said another-but MEANT them to think he said another. An example: he said he was on the basketball team in high school, played basketball all through college, and was involved with the NBL team the Sheboygan Redskins. He phrased that very carefully. What it means in plain English: He was on the basketball team in high school, but was on no other team at any other time. He PLAYED basketball in college, but not on any TEAM. He had some connection with the Sheboygan Redskins, but that is an incredibly vague term that can mean he tried to drum up attendance at their games, advertised for them, or any of dozens of other teams. What did he get people to believe? They thought he said he played on the basketball teams in high school and college, and played on the Sheboygan Redskins. The only source one can find that claims he ever DID play for them- and someone managed to get the entire team roster of the entire history of the Sheboygan Redskins and posted it (he's not there), is a paper someone wrote. Their source? twi's book where vpw claimed he was "connected with" the Sheboygan Redskins. In other words, all sources say vpw never played for them- except in the intentional misunderstanding of people who read vpw make his vague claim. All as he wanted. And his claim outlasted his lifetime. If not for the internet, it might still be unexposed. If you're interested in this-and I recommend at least one read-through- we had a thread called "The Way: Living in Wonderland" were we discussed vpw's and twi's claims in their book "The Way: Living in Love", and the related history. In the last pages, I assembled the documentable twi history and wrote out a short biography of vpw himself- as documented all through the thread, with sources listed.

We had a thread a while back that began with a very short post. It said that "man's basic spiritual problem" is SIN. I can't argue with that, myself.

Welcome. You'll find that many people (myself included) have SOME good memories of twi. Most of us who do temper that with the knowledge that the good times we had were paid for by sufferings of others, so we acknowledge them but put them in perspective. You'll notice that there's a gamut of beliefs among posters. There's Christians who agree with almost everything vpw taught, much of it, or are currently Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, atheist, agnostic, wiccan/pagan, and nearly everything else you can name. (I haven't seen anyone post as a declared Muslim yet, but I may have just missed it.) All points of view are acceptable- so long as manners are maintained and civil discussion is not precluded. (I can believe anything I want, but if I disrupt all the discussions I disagree with, that's not acceptable- my rights continue to the end of my fist, but end before the tip of your nose. :) ) Feel free to read, respond, start discussions, and so on. Please try to keep posts to their relevant forums. Feel free to Search and to ask for threads with more information on any subject that interests you. Feel free to join the games in the Reading Room. And feel free to disagree with me or ignore me- I'm just another poster on the board..... :)

Here's the story I can find. I have no idea if vpw is one of many people who passed it along, or if he changed it and told a different story, or told none of them- I didn't hear him say it live or on tape. But this may be part-or all-of the answer you wanted. Please note that different people add some endings to it. ========================================= There once was a little boy who had a bad temper. His father gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he lost his temper, he must hammer a nail into the back of the fence. The first day the boy had driven 37 nails into the fence. Over the next few weeks, as he learned to control his anger, the number of nails hammered daily gradually dwindled down. He discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence. Finally the day came when the boy didn't lose his temper at all. He told his father about it; and the father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper. The days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone. The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said, "You have done well, my son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things in anger, they leave a scar just like this one. You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. It won't matter how many times you say I'm sorry, the wound is still there." --------- A verbal wound is as bad as a physical one.

http://www.coldwellbankersouthshore.net/servlet/AgentListing?action=detail&ComColdwellbankerDataAgent_id=594832&page=agent& My, what a skill at euphemism and rephrasing we see here! "I've lived in the New Bremen, OH area for 29 years" Right- lived on-grounds at a cult, and made sure most people were kept off-grounds for much of those 29 years. "My background includes experience in the bulding trades and project management." Oh, I was impressed with this most of all! "Experience in the 'bulding' trades" must refer to making sure "Way Builders" kept buildings maintained. "Project management" is referring to the bossing-around on-grounds of everyone below him on the ladder. It's like Jeffrey Dahmer writing that he has experience making "exotic cuisine" (very few people, I admit, know how to prepare human flesh for digestion) or John Wayne Gacy saying he's been a pillar of his local community, a member of the Jaycees and even entertained children as a clown. (True-but leaves out his vile acts and murders of minors when he says that...)

Good friend, we maintain the website for the people who become exposed to them. An old man, going a lone highway, Came at the evening, cold and gray, To a chasm, vast and deep and wide, Through which was flowing a sullen tide. The old man crossed in the twilight dim; The sullen stream had no fears for him; But he turned when safe on the other side And built a bridge to span the tide. "Old man," said a fellow pilgrim near, "You are wasting strength with building here; Your journey will end with the ending day; You never again must pass this way; You have crossed the chasm, deep and wide - Why build you at the eventide?" The builder lifted his old gray head: "Good friend, in the path I have come," he said, "The followeth after me today A youth whose feet must pass this way. This chasm that has been naught to me To that fair-haired youth may a pitfall be. He, too, must cross in the twilight dim; Good friend, I am building a bridge for him." Will Allen Dromgoole (1860 - 1934)

Ah, what language DID you read it in that says that "the tree of knowledge of good and evil {is) right next to the tree of life"? The tree "had some very interesting things growing in it", but, being in the midst of a great big GARDEN like it was, so did lots of other trees nearby. They were bound to see that tree, they were bound to see the other trees. If you saw a really beautifully packaged box of RAT POISON, and someone kept trying to tell you to try some, that all your life you've been told it's deadly to you but that it's really the healthiest thing you could possibly eat, it would taste fantastic, it would burn away belly fat, and regenerate hair, how long would you be able to resist trying some, and who would you blame if you decided to open the box and eat some? In case you're wondering, NO, those are not RHETORICAL questions. They relate DIRECTLY to the discussion by analogy. Which means I'm expecting an answer. If you want my answer as soon as you give yours, I'm fine with that. The entire situation, whether literal or allegorical, was one where free will was THE BEGINNING of the situation. If Man had NO choice and couldn't sin, Man would be denied the free will CHOICE to sin. Sounds like you think the only sensible thing for a smart God to do would be to make sinning impossible or nearly so, and block out Man's capacity to CHOOSE, think and act for himself, and live with the consequences of his decisions and actions. I'm rather thankful for free will, myself. Granted, at the moment, there's a lot of problems that would be bypassed if free will wasn't an option, but we're here, and so is free will, and I prefer that to the most comfortable, idyllic PRISON God could construct.

Seems like YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the story in Genesis is a stretch to begin with, and conflicts with your- and my- laws of the physical universe. Plenty of Christians believe Genesis AND that dinosaurs were on the Earth millions of years ago. Who said the Bible was required to cover subjects not germane to the discussions at hand? It was never meant to be a scientific textbook. As understood, what it DOES say hasn't conflicted with scientific understanding as people have learned down the centuries, despite people forcing incorrect meanings into text. If you're interested, there's actually a lot of smart science all over the Bible. It's not listed as "chapters 5 Scientific theory, chapter 6, Scientific application" because the Bible was never intended to be a scientific textbook. The books of the book (the codex, really) span thousands of years. Just because they're not written in the CURRENT style is no reason, in and of itself, to throw up one's hands and say "it's illogical, it's anti-science, it's anti-reason." Of course, if one has ALREADY MADE UP THEIR MIND to dismiss the Bible, it doesn't matter WHAT the contents say, the only thing one will see is pretexts to ignore it, and a reasoned discussion is already precluded.

The "we never saw Voyager" crowd requests another show.....

Hey, Hiway, still in town?