WordWolf

In terms of understanding the plan of salvation, and getting saved, no I don't think it matters. In terms of what's true and what's false, then, yes, I think it matters. (I won't stay up nights worried about it, but I prefer to be correct when I can manage it.)

vpw documented that one in Whiteside's book. Of course, he said nothing about it being a gimmick- he said there's times God won't permit him to explain further...

" 'What you gonna do when you get out of jail?' 'I'm gonna have some fun.' 'What do you consider fun?' 'Fun, natural fun.' I'm in heaven With my boyfriend, my laughing boyfriend. There's no beginning and there is no end. Time isn't present in that dimension. He'll take my arm When we're walkin', rolling and rocking. It's one time I'm glad I'm not a man. Feels like I'm dreaming, but I'm not sleeping. I'm in heaven With the maven of funk mutation. Clinton's musicians such as Bootsy Collins Raise expectations to a new intention. No one can sing Quite like Smokey, Smokey Robinson. Wailin' and shakin' to Bob Marley Reggae's expanding with Sly and Robbie." "Stepping in a rhythm to a Kurtis Blow. Who needs to think when your feet just go?' "James Brown, James Brown! James Brown, James Brown!"

Who's John Rupp? I don't have a biography of him. Judging from what I know personally and what's been posted of him, I'd say I know this.... Supposedly, he was in the military at some point before his twi experience. John Rupp was a relative newcomer who completed his Way Corps commitment in 1989. As you may remember, he was finishing it on-grounds as lcm demanded an oath of loyalty to himself personally, and fired or kicked out everyone who gave any other answer than swearing loyalty to him. Not counting the people who had left over the past few "fog years", when lcm drew his line in the sand, 80% of the people who were now in the way international were no longer welcome in the way international. lcm was thoughtful enough to kick them all out together, so 80% of the local structures and 80% of the rank-and-file were all still in touch with each other. This of course means that they formed a few groups, and the few largest groups were at least the size of the twi that remained, if not bigger. (Together they certainly outnumbered it.) 80% of all the competent twi people, if not more, left or were kicked out- since those that remained had to prove they were more loyal to lcm and twi than to any principle even if given by God Almighty. (The entire research staff walked, for example.) With so many competent people gone, this was THE opportunity for the ambitious yet unskilled (or at least unconnected and inexperienced) to leap to the forefront. Which they did. Getting back to John Rupp, that means that as soon as he graduated from the Way Corps, he was immediately promoted to Corps Coordinator, which means he was now IN CHARGE of the Way Corps. He demonstrated loyalty, so he was able to work his way up the ladder- especially as more people above him were kicked out or left. So, he was able to stay still and get "promoted" by ATTRITION, not through any demonstrated skills. I know that the man who read part of the script for their commercial and was supposedly John Rupp was a stiff caricature of the man Rupp had been years before, when he was in the Corps. He was now LESS than he had been, and demonstrably so. But, he talked the party line, he bowed his knee to the image of the way international, and that was enough to keep a cushy job. Mind you, early on, he'd made the statement (made it to me PERSONALLY) that God chose vpw, and that vpw chose lcm by revelation, so that either lcm was right when he was demanding his oath of loyalty, or else God was stupid. (For those wondering, God never chose victor paul wierwille. victor paul wierwille chose victor paul wierwille. victor paul wierwille chose l craig martindale- NOT by revelation, but on the basis of lcm always doing whatever vpw told him to do, and supposedly because the Corps might follow him since he'd been promoted-prematurely- to Corps Coordinator previously. Those who were around may remember vpw asking people to nominate candidates, which is not how you get revelation to select someone. History has proven that both choices were harmful to people. lcm was the wrong choice, and God Almighty was neither stupid nor invited to participate in the process. In fact, the whole thing was just like vpw said in pfal, where he described people making their own decisions, then afterwards thanking God for blessing the decisions they'd already made without Him.) Among those handfuls still connected to twi, someone floated a rumor that Rupp is "a great people person and a very good teacher of the word." I suppose comparing him to the others remaining he looks better, but that's a lot like being the best surfer in Antarctica. From his position as Corps Coordinator, Rupp was made the assistant to the Trunk Coordinator, Bill Green, and an observer said he served as Green's "yes man." He's been observed to operate without conscience and act as directed by the higher ups, whether that was to lean on WOWs to push the class constantly, and conceal information from the class candidates and keep them in suspense, or to kick out Full-Time Corps (during the "all Corps are full time" fiasco) who were forced to allow a woman and her unruly son to live with them until they gave up trying and said she had to leave. No discussion, no explanation, they were kicked out for not keeping their necks in a situation they considered intolerable. When Bill Green was fired from the Trunk Coordinator position, Rupp moved up into that spot from the "Assistant to TC" spot. When the Board was reshuffled, Rupp was moved to one of the 3 VP spots, and given the title "Minister of USA Operations." Basically, he is now over the current Trunk Coordinator, and passes the orders from "the Board" (Rosalie and Donna) to the TC. In plain English, he's the Trunk Coordinator, and the other guy (the supposed TC) is his assistant. But they look more important-and more busy- on paper this way. Rupp's also taught 2 sessions in their current WAP class, sessions 1 and 2. 2005 gave him the VP office, 2006 was the release of the new class. There's a rumor going around that Rupp's currently the sole remaining VP, which puts him within reach of Rosalie and Donna. Yes, technically, Donna's position-on paper-isn't much- but as Rosalie's confidant, she is de facto (if not de jure) above Rupp in authority, pull, and say-so. If Rupp finally thinks he can have what's left after Rosalie's too feeble to object, he has to figure out what to do about Donna first. Then again, although he's not very young either, Donna's also working her way up in years. Maybe there will be a "hunting accident" or some other mishap, and Donna will suddenly be incapacitated....

I've come to approximately the same conclusion, for approximately the same reasons.

We've never met, but I'm glad you've shown up to speak for yourself. I hope you stick around a while- for this thread if for no other.

I'll add another consideration to the rest. Looking at the entire history of what victor paul wierwille did and said, and when he did and said it, it seems obvious that he built his entire career on the talents of other people, and the gaps in time reflect the times he was limited in what he could find and claim credit for. From the beginning, vpw knew he was a fake. He constructed a fictional character he played, and cobbled it all together from the work of others- the manner of speaking, the materials, even the personal anecdotes of life experiences, at times. All of that was so that victor paul wierwille could give out that himself was some great one, so that they would all give him heed, from the least to the greatest, saying "This man is the great power of God." It was so successful that a few people, having displeased vpw or his successor or having been labeled a failure by them, went off and committed suicide. He convinced some women-some married, some single- that it was perfectly fine with God to help a man commit adultery by fornicating with him. When craig martindale came along, he was completely snowed about all of that. vpw convinced lcm that this was all a legitimate movement of God, so lcm carried himself accordingly. vpw knew that he would have to "play" his audience- he knew there were times to hide his true intentions and answers to questions, he knew that there were times to play the "benevolent father" and times he could secretly crush someone's personality. lcm never stopped to think that he had to "play" his audience- he thought everything he saw vpw do was approved of God- so he could copy him at will and God would approve. So, the "do some things in secret" strategy wasn't a factor. Add that to his lesser intelligence, lesser skill in strategy and falsehood, add his big ego, add his jock mentality, and it's clear lcm was possibly the worst choice for a successor vpw could possibly have chosen! Then again, all he had to do was fit vpw's own criteria- when asked once just after selecting lcm, vpw said it was because lcm had always obeyed him without question no matter what. That was "good enough" for vpw, but over time, it was painfully obvious it wasn't "good enough" for everyone else.

It was pretty successful for him as a strategy. Locally, we saw healthy Christians, and were tricked into the fallacy that guaranteed healthy Christians higher up the way international's "tree." Healthy Christians were used to advertise all twi's programs- as if their health was due to those programs they'd taken. (In many cases, their health was IN SPITE OF those programs.) Certainly we would have had trouble swallowing the idea that the inner circle was unhealthy in any manner.

" 'What you gonna do when you get out of jail?' 'I'm gonna have some fun.' 'What do you consider fun?' 'Fun, natural fun.' " "I'm in heaven With my boyfriend, my laughing boyfriend. There's no beginning and there is no end. Time isn't present in that dimension. He'll take my arm When we're walkin', rolling and rocking. It's one time I'm glad I'm not a man. Feels like I'm dreaming, but I'm not sleeping." "I'm in heaven With the maven of funk mutation. Clinton's musicians such as Bootsy Collins Raise expectations to a new intention. No one can sing Quite like Smokey, Smokey Robinson. Wailin' and shakin' to Bob Marley Reggae's expanding with Sly and Robbie."

One always has A choice. (All the options may be lousy, one or more may be presented as certain doom or the only chance to survive, but there is still a choice buried under all the baggage.) You CHOSE to follow the more healthy option. You COULD have chosen to wallow in nostalgia and refuse to move forward. You could have decided that somehow you displeased God since the way international. Hey, some people decided all those things, and either recovered slower from their twi exposure, or, decades after leaving, still define themselves by twi labels and twi doctrines. You chose a healthy, functional present and future instead.

They PAY for that spot....

"I AM big! It's the pictures that got small."

Let's try again. Same artist, different song. " 'What you gonna do when you get out of jail?' 'I'm gonna have some fun.' 'What do you consider fun?' 'Fun, natural fun.' " "I'm in heaven With the maven of funk mutation. Clinton's musicians such as Bootsy Collins Raise expectations to a new intention. No one can sing Quite like Smokey, Smokey Robinson. Wailin' and shakin' to Bob Marley Reggae's expanding with Sly and Robbie."

"Tango and Cash." Personally, I was miffed that The Call's "Let the Day Begin" was used in the theater release, but was deleted for all subsequent versions.

Let's try again. Same artist, different song. "I'm in heaven With the maven of funk mutation. Clinton's musicians such as Bootsy Collins Raise expectations to a new intention. No one can sing Quite like Smokey, Smokey Robinson. Wailin' and shakin' to Bob Marley Reggae's expanding with Sly and Robbie."

I know both Bullinger and chris geer (who got it from Bullinger) put forth that "katabole" meant "overthrow" and not "foundation". However, having done a study on it (Raf did much of the work), I do not believe either was correct in doing so. Bullinger even noted there was a verse that made no sense if "katabole" was translated that way, yet he persisted. "Katabole" is typically translated "foundation." After having looked at the evidence, I have concluded that this translation is correct.

He started with that sort of thing in pfal, when talking about speaking in tongues. He said it was "rest to the soul", and then began expounding further from there. He claimed he'd gotten to the point that he never dreamed. Horse manure- if he wasn't INTENTIONALLY lying, he simply DID NOT REMEMBER his dreams. People deprived of the ability to dream when asleep- that is, being kept awake or awakened just as it starts- will have their bodies recalibrate to compensate. So, if you're not getting ENOUGH sleep (REM-sleep tends to occur at the END of the sleep cycles, so wake up early and cut off the dream-state), then your body will adjust so that you'll go into REM sleep soon after falling asleep. You'll end up dreaming during short naps. Avoid sleep entirely, and you will discover you'll go into a waking state of dreams. Now, THAT, if anything, might scare the uneducated, since it seems like you're awake and yet you're "hallucinating" or "receiving" something, when it's just your body's "emergency dream" system. I knew that even when I heard victor paul wierwille expounding that nonsense. I said "he just doesn't remember his dreams" and let it go at that. It should have been a warning that he made sh* up to cover when he had no idea about something.

The 80s. The band in question had 2 hits, AFAIK. (This was one.) "I tell you he was a masterpiece. 'How are you,' says I. 'Just cool,' says he. He never shook my hand. He was no gentleman. But he was oh-oh-oh over me, oh-oh-oh. I met him hanging out at the park. I was scared 'cause it was after dark. And he wore fast street clothes And he was clearly posed. But he was oh-oh-oh-over me, oh-oh-oh." "His smile was rich although his clothes were poor. Something in his eyes of great allure. And I could not resist A calculated risk. Since he was oh-oh-oh over me, oh-oh-oh. We broke the rules, but we won the game. Nothing to lose and everything to gain. And he will marry me. I'll carry his baby. 'cause I'm oh-oh-oh over him, oh-oh-oh."

Raf hasn't been checking in lately- he knows this one....

That's not what it said, so I agree we aren't meant to think that. It said the plants and trees were given to us for food. It said that the animals were given the green plants for food. In general principle, it means the plants were meant (originally) as the diet for the animals and humans. Since we now have herbivores eating plants, and insectivores eating insects, and carnivores eating herbivores, obviously it does not apply now, and something has changed. That some plants can't be part of a diet NOW should be less of a surprise, knowing that. MOST plants form part of an ecosystem and diet of some form of animal, whether insect or herbivore or something else. Then again, I still say this was not MEANT to be a scientific textbook explanation- just sufficient for the understanding of people 4000 years ago without being inaccurate.

"I tell you he was a masterpiece. 'How are you,' says I. 'Just cool,' says he. He never shook my hand. He was no gentleman." "I met him hanging out at the park. I was scared 'cause it was after dark. And he wore fast street clothes And he was clearly posed. But he was oh-oh-oh-over me, oh-oh-oh." "His smile was rich although his clothes were poor. Something in his eyes of great allure. And I could not resist A calculated risk Since he was oh-oh-oh-over me, oh-oh-oh." "We broke the rules, but we won the game. Nothing to lose and everything to gain."

Definitely "Dune."

GrouchoMarxJr on the last 10 years of twi under Rivenbark...

Well put! My description of her teaching style is still that it has all the personality of wet cardboard, with a chalky aftertaste. The funny part is the practice of the moglets all following the mog in charge. In this case, that leeches the last of the "interesting" from the dregs of twi. In attempting to stay in power, Rosalie Rivenbark has set the stage for more disintegration of the way international. Since anyone with a lick of talent is a threat to her and can stage a coup for the throne, she runs off all the talent before they can backstab her like she backstabbed craig martindale. Currently, she has to watch for the day John Rupp or Donna Martindale shows up on the throne..and rfr has to be pushing 80 as it is. She's going to need their help just to function, and won't be able to oppose their ascension to the throne. Of course, at that point, twi even kicked Mrs Wierwille off-grounds, so I'm sure Rosa-lie has had a few nights to dwell on her own future.....

I do not know. the way international does their best to hide SPECIFICS. However, here is what we do know. 1) The TOTAL number of members has dwindled to within a few thousand. (I'd say 3000 for all the adults would be a GENEROUS number, it's probably about 2000 adults.) 2) The ages of the members ("followers"), as measured by mean, median and mode, have climbed consistently every year. (The people they retain are almost always people who've been around for a number of years, and they have been unable to replace even their leaving members since 1989, in terms of overall numbers.) So, they essentially have 3 types of people. A) Aging people who have stayed around. They're in their late 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. B) A few teenagers, their children, who haven't learned yet that they won't be able to reform the corrupt organization. C) A few young folk who know that,and are trying to leave with their families D) A few young folk who know that and want to be the ones barking the orders E) a tiny handful of new folk Considering that the current members are not replacing their numbers by recruitment, by childbirth, or both (especially since twi used to condemn them for having kids), the members overall are decreasing in numbers, and increasing in age. Eventually, the twi membership will just die out of old age. It won't happen all at once, but it HAS already started. ===================================== How does this address the initial question? I'd say the talent pool is almost completely empty. the way international has an average of less than 100 people per US state. Nearly all the members are in their 50s or older. Among them are a handful of people who would jump off a cliff if instructed to do so- but can their blind loyalty make up for an absence of skills and talent? When twi does a musical number, they display first a video of a group of elderly people singing in long-outdated clothes. When they try to change that, they find ONE younger person who can barely sing, can't dance, and can't write lyrics. (They have no one to write lyrics for him or choreograph his dance moves-a major change since the 1980s...) The result is arguably worse than the previous video- it becomes a laughingstock all over cyberspace among people who've never HEARD of twi or vpw. The few staffers they have are almost all approaching "their golden years", with possibly a few younger people who have no idea how badly they're getting hosed.