WordWolf

If SIT was the be-all and end-all we were told it was, why were so few verses written to address it?

Suda is correct. It's not easy to find good quotes from the song without including the title.... And bulwinkl just needs a little time off the game. I imagine they'll be back soon.

I knew. I own a copy of "Sur la Mer", specifically because it contains this song. (Thus the "Sir"/"Sur" reference.) I was going to give the others a few hours to answer it, just in case someone else recognized it, before naming it. =========== Ok, mindful that I try to keep the songs pre-1985, because otherwise I can post the entire song and a lot of them won't get it, let's see, next song.... "And now my life has changed in oh so many ways, My independence seems to vanish in the haze."

That's a little recent for a lot of the diehards here, Sir. :)

I thought this was worth repeating.

Right. We all agree this is ERROR. Where we're disagreeing is, that this came right out of vpw's mouth. "God already has moved-in Christ Jesus, and He does not move again until you move." So, we all agree that's error. God already moved, then He moved some more, and He moves today, and He will move tomorrow, and my "moves" make an interesting footnote.

I don't think it's for me to judge him as EVIL or not. Using the standards in Galatians 5 and seeing if they apply-well, they were given to us so that we WOULD use them. That doesn't mean I say he was EVIL or not. That means I say whether or not he's the sort of man God said is worth taking seriously on spiritual matters. I mean, for example, who among us would take Hugh Hefner's advice on spiritual matters?

I think we're all agreeing that this is false. Where we're disagreeing is where WD keeps saying "vpw didn't teach this", which means vpw doesn't get the blame for another doctrine of ERROR that he taught. That's where all the creative reinterpretation and chair stringing has been coming in.

We've established your inability to read what's written before, so "fooling you" is old news. Nice try to take any blame off of vpw and put it on someone exposing what he did- old news again. WTH's still playing the "distort what someone else said and change the subject when vpw is blamed" game again, and that's an old, tired song. ======== Here's what I said (before someone tried to distort it)

This isn't too difficult unless one is determined to KEEP it difficult. WW: WW: WD responded to "If the moves in a chess match were interrupted for hundreds of years, and one player came to the table as "player two" for the first time in his life, and the match "resumed" with his move, he would certainly see HIS move as "the beginning of a match" that began with the board in a set position. (Don't think there aren't chess matches that don't begin with the board in a set position...)" noting that some matches BEGIN WITH THE BOARD IN A SET POSITION with a determination to see that the board not being in the start position as THE sign that the match isn't beginning. WD WD also sees the term "setup" only confined to the limited uses of twi.Me, I would see the acts of creation as "setup" of one type, obviously WD would not. When I speak of God acting long before a human was born as "setup", WD keeps reading that as "God strung chairs before the person was born." someone else, but WW made it sound like it was me: WD: WW: WW: WD: WD seems determined to translate my words and add "stringing chairs" to them. Dishonest, but what can one do? Furthermore, he's made my point FOR me, and still can't see it.... "God has ALREADY moved-in Christ Jesus. He does not move again until YOU move."-vpw. [WD: This demonstrated 2 things: 1) God's "moves" were described as done nearly 2000 years ago-long before our lives. Relative to our lives, God's moves were prologue, preparation, setup. (Without any of the "stringing chair" fixation of anyone's.) God then CEASED acting nearly 2000 years ago. That was the point I was making, which WD reluctantly confirmed. 2) God's next move was ENTIRELY DEPENDENT upon OUR moving. If we did not move, God did not move in our lifetime. If we did move, THEN God would move. That means, for any practical usage, that WE take the lead in moving. We move, action happens, we do not move, no action happens. Action is entirely dependent upon our moving. This is not a difficult concept- unless one is determined not to see it. That was someone else's point- cman's, I think- which WD is determined not to agree with no matter WHAT his own posts say. I can't change that, which is a shame, since WD's smart enough to see all of this if he wishes.

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I wouldn't put the numbers QUITE so high, but I'd say most of the people and intentions were good. The thing is, if his sole intention was to discover truth, his approach would have been different.According to Uncle Harry, vpw was never seen as a kid to be devout. According to the locals, his personality was completely irreverent and disrespectful. He went to school to study-HOMILETICS, not Bible languages, or anything for DISCOVERING TRUTH. He remained deficient in understanding what he could- how much time did he put into working what was translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example? It was available for almost his entire career... He himself chafed when he had to answer to ANYONE, and his response (per "Born Again to Serve") to supposedly hearing from God was that "everyone would listen to me". Doesn't sound very devout to me... When he got ahold of something useful for Bible students, he slapped his name on it pretty quickly, and made a point of doing so as completely as possible. When he took BG Leonard's class, he QUICKLY ran it, with his own name and saying it was HIS OWN class, 3 months after he retook it. He told Leonard he was teaching Leonard's class, and told the students it was HIS OWN class. vpw intended to plagiarize that from the beginning. As for the White Book, it was the textbook for "the class"- and it was Stiles' book with vpw's name on it. I don't think they "became areas of disobedience"-that makes it sound like he was doing fine and these came in afterwards- he PLANNED to plagiarize from the moment he took Leonard's class and got Stiles' book. (We examined this in "the way:living in wonderland".) As for adultery, it seems he made elaborate plans to facilitate that, and made occasion for it whenever and wherever he could. Why else would he tell anyone God was ok with ORGIES? Why else would he display pornographic materials (like his dirty pen) to young people? Why else would he find it acceptable to show them dirty movies involving sex acts with animals? Did all that make him evil? That's not for me to judge. However, it did make him unworthy to be followed as a leader under God. And that's independent of his chronic use of alcohol and sudden bursts of anger at the drop of a hat. Galatians 5 warns that people who do that sort of thing won't inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21 (King James Version) 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. I'm not PRECISELY sure what that means, but it sounds really bad. I think the evidence shows that lcm came in with good intentions, and wanted to learn more about God. However, he put absolute devotion into vpw, and vpw taught him to be twofold the child of hell that he himself was. Matthew 23:15 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) 15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Try reading what lcm said in his devotion to vpw. We examined that in the "vp and me in wonderlan" thread. You'll see lcm learned all sorts of harmful things FROM vpw directly. Unfortunately, vpw intended people to make the Way Corps as their be-all and end-all, and loyalty to vpw and twi were to be EVERYTHING. That's why he occasionally kicked out an entire class, then said they could come back if they reaffirmed their loyalty IN WRITING. vpw WANTED people to think that it made them a better Christian, a better believer. I think a lot of them honestly wanted to do their best for God, then were tricked into going into a program that supposedly would help that- but stuffed them in a mold to conform them to what vpw wanted- which was what lcm was doing, just on a larger scale. I think it's a testimony to many Christians that they came out of the corps and were still viable Christians after the program that did so much to substitute loyalty for godliness.

The best points were already said. Pray for healing for your father. Science doesn't think there's a way to heal brain tissue/nerve tissue, but science is still learning. (I know stem cells have been used to regrow nerve tissue-which is "impossible", so they know they don't have all the answers yet.) Doctors also know that sometimes healing that shouldn't work happens anyway. I took a severe head injury some years ago. I have all my memories, and, I think, I can function better than some people who never took a head injury. I DID have a lot of people praying for me, which may have made THE difference. A lot of people who take head injuries are very much the same person after it. Some of them have difficulty expressing it afterwards, but they still feel the same and think the same. Some have shown some personality differences, either mild ones or less so. Doesn't mean they're a different person. You can pray for his healing, and KEEP praying while he recovers. The difference you make may be dramatic.

"stringing chairs"? Grossly misrepresenting my position isn't honest, WD. If your understanding of "preparation", "prologue" and "setup" is limited to the make-work of twi, then I suppose you might see it that way, but I expected better of you. "He does not move again until YOU move."-vpw. Maybe you were never present when vpw taught this, but he did teach this, quite a bit. Or do you believe that God only moving once YOU do has nothing to do with YOUR actions affecting His?

That's strange. If it's looking for a URL, however, you probably should be linking from an image hosting website, like photobucket or something. However, my understanding was that if you're uploading directly to the GSC, that you can provide the location of the image on your pc, and it will upload directly to the GSC. Depends on what you meant.

"Everyone feeds on death, even vegetarians." "Computer – this is a Class A Priority Directive: Compute, to the last digit, the value of pi." "This is the first time I've heard a malfunction threaten us." "Scotty – here, they use the lights." "Now, no one has to tell an old Aberdeen pub crawler how to applaud, captain!" "Die! Die! Die! Ha,ha! Everybody die!" "Well, Mr. Spock for the next five or six hours we're going to have the happiest crew in space... of course, we won't get much work done." ""An entity which feeds on fear and terror would find a perfect hunting ground on Argelius, a planet without violence, where the inhabitants are as peaceful as sheep. The entity would be as a hungry wolf in that fold." "Captain – since you came to Argelius to rest, I suggest you take advantage of the opportunity." "That's a splendid idea, Mr. Spock. I know a cafe where the women are so–" "I know the place, Jim!" "Let's go see!" "You gentlemen? In your condition? Don't be ridiculous. Mr. Spock – this cafe has women that are so... No, I guess not."

BWAHAHAHAHA! You had me going for a moment there, John, I thought you were serious.

No one said they did. However, human lifetimes DO have time as a factor. Feel free to disagree on conclusions, but pretending to not see points you don't like is a bit silly. Ooo, invoked the "long post=wrong post" fallacy, I am impaled!You've sure convinced the home audience there! :blink: Not without actually stating your point, rather than just cutting and pasting a big block of text and hoping it would do your job FOR you. If you'd said that WITH the big block, it would have made some sense. I still would have found it excessive, but it would have made some sense anyway. For the perspective of any human, the past is prologue. Technicalities are interesting, but irrelevant to the average person living their life. A philosopher or sophist, of course, could argue otherwise for months.

You see all 36 definitions as relevant to your post? Or was that meant to camouflage the shortness of the reply? Or was there another reason?

I suspect Tom could have CONTINUED his search, but rather than fish a while and root around, he sensibly asked you for more information instead. I think EVENTUALLY he would have found it. He never said "the subject doesn't exist", just that one source didn't have anything on it. "tried to check on wikipedia but couldn't find the answers..." (That's not "reading what is written"...) We all know internet searches- like ALL methods of searching, research, study, etc, has its limits. Technology =\= magic, all joking aside. Then again, many (here and other places) have come away with the conclusion that these two subjects are indeed treated adequately in the Bible, just not in a textbook format like 20th/21st century students would prefer. I've participated in discussions on both, here and other places.

If one reads that quickly, it looks like one is served that WITH their meal-as a nice dessert, not AS their meal-no entrees, etc. Me, I'm cynical enough to think they put that in practice so that it was in effect when Whiteside was writing so she could honestly say they were served that. There's something similar in "Catcher in the Rye." The protagonist, Holden Caulfield, says his school (Pencey Prep) served "steak" the day before the parents came to visit, so that if the parents ask what they had for dinner, they would say "steak." Only the "steak" was shrivelled, unappetizing, and barely resembled beef-so it was really a trick.

WhiteDove: WordWolf: WhiteDove: Actually, it was what you were TAUGHT."God has ALREADY moved-in Christ Jesus. Now it is YOUR move." That is, God already moved in the first century AD, and NOW, it is YOUR turn to move. Time is VERY relevant, relative to the person experiencing it. We all "know" the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west. We also know that TECHNICALLY, the Earth is moving, and the sun is stable relative to the Earth, and the Sun ITSELF is not rising and falling. However, for all PRACTICAL purposes for everyone except Astronomers and Astronauts, the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west. (We're not discussing the Arctic Circle.) If the moves in a chess match were interrupted for hundreds of years, and one player came to the table as "player two" for the first time in his life, and the match "resumed" with his move, he would certainly see HIS move as "the beginning of a match" that began with the board in a set position. (Don't think there aren't chess matches that don't begin with the board in a set position...) According to vpw's rule -and it WAS a rule he said LOTS OF TIMES- God's move was hundreds and hundreds of years ago. In YOUR lifetime, the first move is the move YOU perform, after which God will move (AGAIN, but for all your experience, it is God's "first move" in your life.) So, a Christian applying vpw's rule would say the first move of the game was HIS OWN move, and all previous moves were setup, before he ever was born. "Splitting hairs" to say that he should redefine things so that a God who hasn't acted in the Christian's lifetime, his father's lifetime, his father's father's lifetime, his father's father's father's lifetime, and so on, has acted "first", to me, to require unnecessary mental gymnastics on the part of the Christian. He arrived. The conditions were set centuries before. He acted. THEN God was seen to act. To require him to say otherwise just to legitimize a vpw doctrine is silly. Figures- he changed plenty of things in "his" classes. Did he ever claim vpw's classes were wrong, and that's why he changed them? No, it was always OUR fault whenever anything happened. vpw never did ANYTHING wrong-it was always all the other Christians. cg said that, and lcm said that, the 2 Christians most ready to drive off a cliff if vpw required it. You don't usually find that so much in Christians- that's usually assassin sects that do that. It goes hand-in-hand with "if you die serving the sect, you will live in paradise."

I think lcm got so ISOLATED, so POLARIZED, his thinking got so black-and-white, so full-of-conspiracy-theories, that he swallowed the "microwaves will fry you" stuff just like every other conspiracy, like "the Pope has an aircraft carrier" and so on. lcm as a spiritual heavyweight? PLEASE. lcm as a loudmouth heavyweight I could buy, lcm SAYING he's a spiritual heavyweight, I could buy. lcm putting forth propagnanda he was a spiritual heavyweight, I could buy. lcm wasn't even a decent mediumweight, spiritually. He ran the railroad right into a brick wall, and it didn't take long. He wandered his days "in a fog" as HE ADMITS IT. He ran off 80% of twi's people (and their tithes), then set about driving off the rest by demanding they go everywhere 2 x 2 and write a schedule of their days in 15 minute blocks, insisting this would stop the devil from getting them. Are these things a "spiritual heavyweight" says?

I could get behind that.

Correct, of course. The "rap" done by Vincent Price is my favourite part of the song. The video for this song has some of the best choreography I've ever seen. As someone pointed out, when the singer's transformed, the steps following are INCREDIBLY in sync. When the dancers do that single jump, you can actually draw a line under them. Vincent Price's been on my mind since seeing "The Abominable Dr Phibes" the other week. Let's move this along, please..... :)