WordWolf

I agree- but not in the manner you meant. It was vpw's pride that poisoned twi from its earliest days- "I'm too important to farm" "I'm too important to work a full-time job" "I want everyone to listen to me" etc etc.

Oh, a few things here and there. And I've started "learning the ways of The Force", if I can use artistic license.

Congratulations! That's a FANTASTIC accomplishment! I can't really add anything, since you're obviously already reaping the rewards of all of that already.

Sounds like an episode of TOS, where the Vulcan Mind-Meld is used.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Ron-Parks-Min...ur-Christianity "Pop Christianity can be said to be 'a version of Christianity made popular by either select personalities or demands of the masses', which has cultivated its own Christian teachings, Christian practices and even Christian lingo. 'It's Time For Your Destiny!', 'Your Season Has Come!', 'The Seven-fold Anointing', 'The Latter Day Revival', and so many like phrases have become the language of many 21st century Christians. But are they just buzz-words or phrases that have no real root and meaning in Christ-centered Christianity?"

Did Ermal Owens replace "Uncle" Harry at some point?

We discussed this in the "New site promoting twi" thread. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=15507 "Notice how "About Us" says nothing about "us"? "This website is dedicated to giving a fair-and-balanced, comprehensive overview of the publications, books, and beliefs of "The Way International"." That's it. Interesting how that says why there's a website, but leaves who "us" are a complete mystery. Contact info: a screen-name, and a yahoo email address. (Plus a snail-mail address, which is interesting.) I wonder if ALL their books-they-won't-sell will get the 5/6 stars rating. And what the scale supposedly MEANS. And what is a "comprehensive overview"? An extensive brief look? " " A whois lookup shows a M*cael Dav*dson in Indianapolis owned or registered the site." "Since "Jesus Christ Is Not God" is such a cornerstone of the beliefs of The Way International, don't you think it is deceptive to not mention it in your "fair and balanced" view of the organization? You don't even mention it in your book list. It would only be honest to mention that to those looking at this "fair and balanced" look at The Way International." "When you click the link to "contact us" the email address is the same as for a guy who posts pics from the Family Tables website on another site that I frequent. Family Tables is a site run by an "innie" that was visited by several of us a few years ago. When we started asking pointed questions the rules were changed to require that only active TWI members be allowed to post." "Well everyone My husband and I just took a drive to check out this guy. We went to the 4120 Balboa Dr. place that he has on his site. The house is abandoned and looks like it has been that way for quite some time. The windows are broken and the place is falling apart. Funny, somehow I am not surprised."

No link to the post nor the thread, almost as if Oldiesman didn't want us to read the entire post nor the posts it replied to... The post was in reply to derailing a thread and "politely calling people liars". the derailing (as with derailings in general) added nothing to the discussion, but attempted to end it by continually going off-topic. Civil posting has never drawn a response from staff, and it's unlikely it ever will. But don't let little things like "honesty" or "fairness" affect you. You've never seen the OTHER PERSON's side to anything here, and I see no reason for you to bother trying now. Not that you WERE trying.... For the curious, here's the beginning of the thread. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=19557

Which it should, since it IS "Laugh-In." I thought the announcer quotes about the prerecording were the best clue so far, except for certain stock lines. I was getting ready to begin posting the more famous stock lines, for that matter.

His main claim (other than doctrinal differences) is that the origin of the pre-Trib position is a "vision" of McDonald, which she pushed, and then Darby met her, was convinced about it, and ran with it. Darby was teaching it before meeting her, if the years are correct, however. And it would be very difficult for a doctrine to originate in a "vision" that neither mentioned nor suggested it. I posted the account of the "vision." AFAIK, there's only the one "vision" from McDonald. Therefore, if someone (MacPherson) is claiming something is mentioned in "a vision" from McDonald, it would have to be THAT "vision" or none at all. Since a read of that "vision" doesn't turn up any "pre-Trib" ANYTHING, MacPherson made that up, and completely manufactured the claim that McDonald's "vision" (which has nothing to do with it) originated it. Far as I'm concerned, he can be a post-Tribber all he wants, and even hate pre-Trib theology, but I draw the line at making stuff up to support your position. It's unacceptable no matter who's doing it. In case you're wondering, if you feel inclined, you can prowl cyberspace for sites that attack the pre-Trib position. Most (if not all) will claim the pre-Trib position originated with McDonald's "vision". Their source for that is MacPherson, who's spread that particular fiction far and wide.

"Do you believe in the here-after?" "Yes." "Then you know what I'm here after!" "We spent 35 million dollars on the space program. Now some people said that we should've given it to the poor." "Now what do the poor know about running a space program?" "How about coming up to my place?" "Are you going to try anything fresh?" "Nope. Same old stuff." "Go to your room!" "It's not fair." "The preceding was recorded earlier because we were ashamed to do it now." "Hey, next week have we got a show... " "This show has been prerecorded to give the cast a chance to get away." "Miss Diller, what can a girl do about bad breath?" "Keep your mouth shut." "Do you know there's a small hotel in downtown Burbank?" "No, but if you hum a few bars, I can fake it."

Sorry, that's not it.

Ah, no, burden of proof is in the other direction. I produced the text of her supposed "vision." MacPherson claims her "vision" pushes a pretrib position. Rather than saying I have to prove there NONexistence of any further NONexistent visions, formal logic says MacPherson (or his proxy) has to present some proof of ANY vision with a pre-Trib position on her part. I don't HAVE to prove a NEGATIVE. (Prove the NONexistence of something? Come on, Mark...)

Maybe.

So far, I've run across that "vision" a number of places, but no others. I'm inclined to believe sources who say MacPherson's claims concerning McDonald, at least, are entirely manufactured by MacPherson. (BTW, I was incorrect when I mentioned Darby. It's true he didn't get his positions from MacDonald at all.)

"Do you believe in the here-after?" "Yes." "Then you know what I'm here after!" "We spent 35 million dollars on the space program. Now some people said that we should've given it to the poor." "Now what do the poor know about running a space program?" "How about coming up to my place?" "Are you going to try anything fresh?" "Nope. Same old stuff." "Go to your room!" "It's not fair." "The preceding was recorded earlier because we were ashamed to do it now."

I've read other authors who have read her other comments-but THAT one was the most famous- that was "THE vision" MacPherson hinged it all on. (She wasn't getting them ALL the time...) As you can read, she was perhaps a mid-tribber, a "partial rapturist" at most. The cornerstone of her speeches was that the church was going to live through the tribulation- and it wasn't READY. Can you find some OTHER quote of hers that MacPherson says is related to pre-trib- that actually IS pre-trib? Does this mean you've reconsidered this, and are now going to dig through MacPherson's stuff?

I posted the new quotes 3:30am in the morning, and all you have to say is I included a typo? I did a cut-and-paste and didn't notice the typo. Beat me.

It's certainly a separate issue and a distraction, but if someone's spreading MISinformation, I prefer to put a stop to it. If you want to be a mid-tribber, a post-tribber, an amillenianist, an atheist, agnostic, or something else, that's your choice and I won't lose sleep over it. If you're going to make an "argument" for your position, however, please don't make stuff up or spread MISinformation.

"Do you believe in the here-after?" "Yes." "Then you know what I'm here after!" "We spent 35 million dollars on the space program. Now some people said that we should of given it to the poor." "Now what do the poor know about running a space program?" "How about coming up to my place?" "Are you going to try anything fresh?" "Nope. Same old stuff."

Dave McPherson is a VERY sick man. He has made it his life's work to attack the pre-tribulation position. That's his decision, of course- but he has chosen to do so by stooping to every dirty trick he could think of, including things like claiming deathbed recantations by pre-tribulationists, and making things up out of whole cloth when they weren't true. Did you know he blames his Dad's poor health at one time on pre-tribulation? Margaret Mc Donald was a POST-Tribber who believed the church was going to live through the Tribulation SOON- and was NOT ready for it. That's the essence of what she said when she was at meetings and so on. Here's the vision that McPherson claimed was the origin of the pre-tribulation position. See if you can FIND the pre-tribulation position anywhere IN it! =================================== "It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.' I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold. I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross. I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.'' =======================================

I never sat down to watch the show, but "Weee doggies" is well-known. They even used it in a commercial for chips and salsa, when supposedly Chris Elliott met the Beverly Hillbillies.

At most, you're responsible for what you did- actions you took, and things you said. (Then and now.) If you were born or raised in twi, you had absolutely no say in the matter, and were NOT responsible for either. Me, I never heard of twi or vpw until vpw was dead. I certainly was not responsible for vpw in any way. If I bore any responsibility regarding twi, it was in the carrying away from twi the arrogant d*head attitudes I learned in twi. (I wasn't responsible for them teaching it, I was responsible for my young-naive-stupid self perpetuating the attitudes.) Much of it I was able to ditch in the first few years. Some of it took a little longer. I still keep an eye out in case some bad behaviors show their faces one of these days. (Metaphorically.) I also like to keep the truth out there so others who might fall into the snare of twi don't fall into the snare of twi. Proverbs 1:17 Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.

TECHNICALLY, no. You started the other thread, and this thread was started in direct response to your posting about vpw and whether he's a "victim" or not. Well, you've grossly oversimplified the situation, and cut out everything that didn't support your position. You may as well say "Does every current German citizen bear responsibility for the Nazi regime? Better to peg it on a guy who died in 1945. Makes it easy for people to just walk away or sit at a computer." By your system, everyone except possibly yourself (who was innocent of twi?) was EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR TWI. Meanwhile, we have a man who defined an organization so as to provide him as much money as its structure was able to provide (immoral) , who broke the law to plagiarize the works of others (illegal) to provide him a marketable product, who put forth the works of others were all the result of conferences between him and God Almighty (immoral), who set out to try to find out how to incorporate "God approves of orgies" into his system when he thought some Christians were saying that (immoral), who sent others to set up groups then shoved their leaders out as soon as the groups were in place (immoral), who made all sorts of claims of a "leadership program" that allowed him to have people PAY to be in a program where they did the manual labor required on-grounds (immoral), who required the applicants TO that program to write autobiographies, then used those autobiographies to target some women to rape, or drug and rape (illegal and immoral), who set up an elaborate framework to cover his tracks so that almost nobody even SUSPECTED any of these things until the invention of the internet, and carefully cultivated an inner circle who were "insiders" to all this and were PARTICIPANTS and CO-CONSPIRATORS in this. This man set up a structure, and used large numbers of legitimate Christians with genuine desire to serve God and help others, and made them his SMOKESCREEN. Blame all of them EQUALLY with him? He set out to do evil. They set out to do good. He deceived them. They were deceived. Should they have looked closer? In many cases, yes. Is that equally bad as what he did? Do you blame the animal for falling in the trap? With 20/20 hindsight, it's EASY to see what MIGHT have been done, what MIGHT have worked. The few who found out and spoke up were VILIFIED and VILLAINIZED so no one would believe them. In fact, one of them was kept under ARMED GUARD. Equally to blame with the man who set up the framework, and those who maintained it with him and PARTICIPATED in it? In some cases, it's taken decades to FIND OUT ALL THIS. Call me "simple-minded" all you wish. I say the rapist who set this up, and got others to assist him and join him in the rapes were MORE RESPONSIBLE than the people who just tried to do their best to do the right thing.

I was making a good-faith attempt to address your questions. Looks like you had your mind made up long before starting the thread, and just wanted a thread to vent. Mind you, if you'd labelled it a thread where you just needed to vent, I would have been fine with that.