WordWolf

When they're being VERY pushy, there's ways and ways of getting THEM to decide to leave. Back when I was in twi, I remember one twi'er exploting their aversion to speaking in tongues- he got one to run away. Me, back in twi, I used them for Bible practice. I'd listen to them begin on a subject, then we'd go to a different book and address the same subject. (At a reasonable pace.) I did that partly for my OWN practice (I think that understanding ALL the books is a laudable goal, and the more, the better), and partly to test how well they knew verses outside their own approach. I disdain relying SOLELY on knowing ONE approach with ONE passage. If that's all you know, you're not ready to play with the big boys. Read up, and try again in 3-6 months to a year. It was also a measure of their poise to see how well they dealt with the unexpected. (Pretty well, mostly.) Anyway, I got some practice and some entertainment in, and I think they learned something as well. This approach may not work as well if your locals aren't up to this caliber.

There probably were nicer ways to phrase it, but overall, I don't think that was impolite in and of itself. It doesnt sound like they were rude, nor you. I've had a variety of experiences like that, some of which weren't so polite. But-they started. I was awakened from a nap some years ago by a ringing of my doorbell. (Early morning.) I went to the door, asked who it was, and the person deliberately mumbled, intentionally making it so I could not make out a response without opening the door. Obviously, their INTENTION was to force a conversation. Obviously, they didn't think through what type of conversation would result if they pulled a stunt like that. So, having heard the mumble, I looked through the security peephole to look at the person there. I saw a tie, and someone DODGE out of line of sight of the hole. Obviously, he was DETERMINED I receive no information about who was bothering me at my door before opening the door. So, I opened my door, visually confirmed who it was, then shut my door and locked it as he was opening his mouth. I now had all the information I needed, and-based on his actions, that's all the interaction I was interested in. I then went back to bed. I heard he stood there for several minutes, but I don't know why. ========= Another time, a guy tried a new, equally dishonest tactic. He said he was going around to encourage neighbors to read their Bible. I thanked him, and said I already did. His immediate response was "Well, many people SAY that..." (A bystander asked me afterwards "Did I hear him call you a liar?") Since he was challenging my reading of the Bible directly, I decided to accept his challenge....which should have been accompanied by a "dun-dunn-DUNNN!" in the soundtrack.... We then went all over the Bible in succession. He'd bring up a subject, and I'd take him to books he was unfamiliar with, and right to verses relevant to the subject. Hey, if he really WAS reading it all the time, he should be able to keep up.... He came back another time, and I told him directly that my specific disinterest in what he had to say was due to his previous words to me-which I quoted back, complete with context. I let him consider that for a moment, and formulate his response. Now, HAD HE accepted responsibility for his words, and apologized as an adult, I might have reconsidered-which is why I paused. (He was older than me, and should have SOME maturity.) His response was right out of some people's twi playbook of "never admit you're wrong." He began saying that IF he said such a thing, and continued with a further evasion. I pointed out exactly what I was thinking- HAD he accepted responsibility, I MIGHT have listened to him further, but it's clear to me that whatever I need to hear, he doesn't have within him. I think the person travelling with him got the lesson, whether or not he did. No, not everyone is like that, but approaches of those kinds will receive what I deem to be responses appropriate to them.

My apologies. I was under the impression that cg had boiled the subject down to its essence, rather than leave all the artificial titles and unnecessary categories in place. I gave him more credit than he earned. My mistake.

THERE'S an ugly truth we all had to face....

Ok, get your GPS navigators ready, we're going to get lost now....] [Can anyone find ANY relevance to the last few paragraphs, concerning why WTH finds it necessary to deny the Holocaust? He really doesn't care about what happened to all those people, and if he has to claim it's fake to not care about them, he will, but in the meantime, he's just going to pretend you didn't ask him.

Bear in mind that the corps was presented as teaching to apply the Bible and serve God. As such, one should come to expect bullying to be rare and accidental, mis-steps by the one who bullied. This FICTION that the corps was supposed to be some sort of paramilitary organization where Christians were sent through some sort of Boot Camp and were expected to be some sort of soldier/athlete Christian is not reflected in anything anyone was handed before joining, nor part of what they signed, nor in the official comments made verbally for those interested. It was supposed to be some sort of Christian education-partly in the classroom, partly outside the classroom by doing, but an education overall. That's one reason why the "graduates" got a DIPLOMA at the conclusion. If the corps was supposed to be some sort of military training, then it was an INCREDIBLY poor model of one- partly because vpw designed it, and vpw's knowledge of the military came second-hand AT BEST, and primarily from movies and television like many of us have seen- but we at least admit we don't really know about it. If it HAD been based on some sort of military model- and not a CHRISTIAN EDUCATION model, (which would have been news to most of the students, especially the Family Corps who never planned to take their families into military training) then-at most- the opening few weeks should have been when any high-pressure activities took place. However, based on what I've heard from people actually IN the military- the bullying is seen in MOVIES and possibly when applying for elite units like Navy Seals, Special Forces, etc, and is not seen in actual training, neither during a normal tour, nor in boot camp. It's more like Sergeant Hulka in "Stripes"- where he tells the men they're going to learn how to do everything the army's way, and he's going to be their instructor. This whole "yell-at-the-trainee" stuff is reserved for when a trainee does something SPECIFIC and STUPID. (For example, when a trainee at the firing range stands up, and carelessly points his rifle at someone, with live ammo in the gun. THAT's worth yelling over- and he got yelled at over it.) Movies show sergeants screaming at cadets, calling them worthless, and commercials show sergeants yelling at length over a small ketchup stain on an undershirt. That's FICTION, not reality. However, vpw really didn't seem to have anything more substantial than that sort of cinematic background when considering additions to the program that were supposedly "military". That's CARELESS, and IMPROPER PREPARATION on his part. He should have been FAR better prepared when proposing a multi-year training program. If one HAS TO "take some bullying" and "hard knocks", one may not have the right PROGRAM. Criticism-of PRODUCTIVE KINDS- are healthy parts of ANY training program, no matter how inconsequential the program. (Trainees at fast-food restaurants receive constructive criticism as well.) The disciples were beaten by the religious authorities of their day, and rejoiced to be counted worthy to suffer in Christ's name. Didn't mean the beatings were correct. Their attitude was healthy- but they were responding to something UNhealthy, and UNgodly-but dressed up as something godly. After all. "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing" makes a dandy rationalization for "I yell because I care" and "I yell because you can take it", but of those three sayings, all three are from vpw, and NONE of the three are FROM SCRIPTURE. The first one, "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing" bears a resemblance to "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger", which of course is from Frederich Neitzche, the same man who said "God is dead." Neither of those, of course, appear in Scripture, either.

[This doctrine was in need of an overhaul- so much so that when cg-who virtually worshipped vpw at the time he wrote this- worked on this subject, he completely overhauled the categories, reducing them from 5 categories to 2 easy-to-follow categories: 1) believing-trusting information received-from whatever source- and acting on it. A verb. 2) "The right way of believing", which makes it the canon of doctrine we are to follow. In short, a noun. THIS makes sense. The pfal one added categories where none were needed. I shall clarify.]

It WAS disappointing. It was also EXPECTED and MANDATED by vpw, who-as can be seen in your OWN story- demanded his positions be embraced whether or not they were understood. Someone had the guts to ask a question that SHOULD have been asked all the time- and vpw punished him for it. Then again, vpw's position-as came up on another thread- was that, in his OWN WORDS, "...So, when I teach, I expect people to understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid."

http://www.google.com put the name of the series in quotation marks, and the word "quotes" in quotation marks, and you should find at least one good site with some more quotes from the show. Usually they're pretty accurate-at least, sites like IMdb and wikiquote tend to have more accurate ones, as do some others.

Ok, it's been long enough. This was "Starship Down", which bore a resemblance to "Disaster" in that it was about the main ship being damaged and the crew managing along. A Kareeman businessman caught Quark cheating him, and Quark kept trying to convert him to gambling and to taking risks-and part of that was when they had to disarm a Jem'hadar torpedo. Kira tried to keep an injured Sisko conscious by telling him a folk tale. (According to Phil Farrand, that tale is a local tale in the Philippines.) Bashir and Jadzia were trapped in a room for a short time, and had a candid talk while they were. My main recollections of the episode were of Worf and Miles O'Brien. Worf needed to adjust his style of barking specific orders to the engineers' style of being given a problem and figuring out the specifics themselves. That's him telling them "I need a weapon" and them working out how to give him one with 1/2 the systems damaged or not working right in that atmosphere. My most vivid memory related to one of the quotes. Right after a major announcement of using an "active" scan-one that generates a "ping" that others can detect, giving away your own position- they said they'd need to alter course completely immediately after each "ping"-since their position was given away. Of course, the ship then proceeds to stay CONSTANT after each "ping". And, of course, the Jem'hadar said "thanks for telling us where you are" and shot the heck out of them while I was calling them idiots for not changing. I really am baffled what that was about in the episode. I mean, the explanation was so obvious, and they FORGOT to do the best thing to keep them un-shot? Anyway, whoever's got a quote can go next- whoever it is. This would be a GREAT chance for a lurker to take a turn. A quote from ANY episode from ANY Star Trek series. (Although some of us are spotty on our Voyager and Enterprise stuff.)

Brother, you're thinking of God as an incredible human, rather than a transcendant being. Mark 2:27-28 (New American Standard Bible) 27Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28"So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Remember, God communicates in a manner that fits our little brains, even if it's not the most technically-accurate manner of explaining something. Jesus-who knows what he's talking about-said outright that the Sabbath was made FOR MAN, not for God. God ordained a Sabbath for man to rest and to remember God. That wasn't because God needed it-it's because MAN needed it. God described Himself as resting once His labours were complete- not because He was tired, but because it was done-and because He was going to use this to explain why man was to have a Sabbath. I think God told us the right things to do because He WANTS us to do them-for our own benefit as well as other reasons. I think He's PROUD of us when we do them without him dragging us by the scruffs of our necks- but that He's not diminished even if we don't do it.

It's a shame that they had God confined in this little box and they consider Him only accessible to THEIR church. Please note that those young people are young (duh), and remember how wise you were at that age-you might have been in twi at the time, and convinced God was confined in a different little box and considered Him only accessible to YOUR church. Please also note that they were on their equivalent to the wow field, and so they were singleminded and persistent- which shows in how they answered your questions.

Jesus trusted the word of his Father which He had spoken to him. He considered it to be reliable information from a reliable source, and he acted accordingly. You do the same thing whenever you decide to carry an umbrella or not after checking a weather report. The details of the information and the action vary, but the principle is the same for both, and is strikingly simple. This need to slap labels and numbers on it is understandable, human, unnecessary and an excellent method to encourage MISunderstanding what happened.

Looks like you stumped us. Want to post another, or should the next person ready send one up?

1:"Unfortunately, we've found there's little profit in trading with the Federation. In order to comply with your commerce laws, we've had to pay a series of taxes and fees that have made the cost of doing business with you too high." 2:"What sort of taxes and fees are you referring to?" 1:"For example... on a recent shipment of Karemman Fleece, a four percent surcharge was added to pay for inspecting the cargo for 'changeling infiltrators.'" 2:"What?" 3:"You never know where they might be hiding." 1:"Another three percent of the shipment's value was lost due to 'unforeseen' currency fluctuations." 3:"There was a run on the Bolian Credit Exchange... played havoc with the markets..." 1:"A six percent tariff was imposed to help offset the 'lost income of Tarkalian sheep herders.'" 3:"Hardworking people... you have to feel for them..." 1:"Should I go on, Captain... ?" 2:"No... I think you've made your point..." "Sensor range was limited, so we learned to use an old active-scan system to navigate." "It works by echo-location... we send out a modulated tetrion pulse, and if it reflects off the hull of a ship, we can approximate its location." "Won't these pulses give away our position as well?" "We'll have to alter course and speed after each one." "Helm, take us to a higher altitude." "We're gaining altitude..." "How can you tell?" "I've got the lobes..." "You've got them, too. It's a Ferengi expression. Usually, when we say someone has "the lobes," we mean they have a keen business sense. That's you. I'll admit it. You fooled me. I thought you were just another easy mark. But you saw right through my little scam, and taught me a thing or two about doing business in the Gamma Quadrant. I guess I've gotten lazy. I'm used to dealing with the Federation. You think I was cheating you, you have no idea what I was doing to them. They still haven't caught on. And if someone like me can put one over on them, think of what someone like you could do." "Someone with my... lobes?" "Exactly. And I'm just the man to help you do it. we could become rich, rich beyond our dreams." "You... are despicable." I hate the Gamma Quadrant... " "... but then the brothers started to argue about how to divide the money they got for the kava root. The oldest said that since it was his idea to bring it to the city, he should get more. The youngest objected, saying he was the one who'd tended the field where... " "One of these diodes connects the warhead to the power source... the other is the firing mechanism." "How do you know that?" "I saw a design schematic once." "Where?" "At the Ministry of Trade on Karemma. We sell these torpedoes to the Jem'Hadar." "You're kidding." "No." "I thought you said you'd never sold substandard merchandise... It was supposed to explode on impact, wasn't it?" "Maybe I should offer them a refund..." "How do you feel?" "Terrible..." "That's not surprising considering that you took in a few lungfuls of Fluorine." "Next time remind me to hold my breath...I take it we're stuck in here..." "I need a weapon." "We still have one atmospheric probe." "If my plan is to work, the probe will not be available to use as a weapon. I need something else." "Phasers are out of the question, the emitters are completely fused." "But the phaser generator is working fine." "The Deflector Array." "With a few modifications, we could use it as a phaser emitter." "It may not be what you had in mind, sir..." "And there is one problem... It'll overload after the first shot." "I only need one shot." "Major... ?" "Yes, captain?" "What... happened... ?" "The Jem'Hadar hit us pretty bad... Worf went down to the Engine Room to -- " "No, no... What happened to the three brothers?" "They gave the money away, and went back to their farm where they belonged."

Any hope for another quote?

Figure out what your interests are, then look for messageboards that cover that. There's usually at least one for almost any SPECIFIC thing, and dozens, hundreds or thousands that cover the GENERAL subject. For example, there's over a thousand Christian messageboard, but few for Christian heavy metal fans.

Gotta be something I picked up by osmosis. Is this "Reba"?

Then again, there's forgiveness, and there's atonement, and there's reinstatement. I can forgive someone of wrongs done to me, but that doesn't mean I let them do it again. If someone stole money from me, I can forgive them, but forget any chance of me leaving any money near them again. If someone abused authority under me, I can forgive them, but forget any chance of me letting them anywhere near responsibility again. That's just ASKING for trouble. Demonstrated remorse is important- it shows a person knows they did wrong, and is at least claiming they will attempt to correct their wrong, or at least not do it again. However, that doesn't mean they get reinstated to any previous position that they used TO do wrong.

1 Corinthians 2:7-9 (King James Version) 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. ======== I've heard I Corinthians 2:8 taught where someone suggested that one reason for God to make all those promises and issue prophecies of the coming redeemer was so that the princes of this world would look for him, and do their best to kill him- and in doing so, would guarantee his victory. I haven't decided if I agree with that. However, IF it is true, it's an interesting example of freewill serving God's purpose. (Even if it isn't, the phrasing makes a sufficient argument by itself.) After all, God didn't do anything to MAKE them try to kill Jesus-they decided they wanted to do that all on their own. However, their decision served God's purposes.

No, I never got my scores back. However, in my PARTICULAR case, they weren't exactly critical information. My exam was composed of 3 parts, each of which had 90 minutes alloted to it. Part I: Foundational class Part II: Foundational-class collaterals Part III: Greek word-study Part I I completed very quickly. I was only limited by how fast I could write the answers. With the exception of the Ready-Reference part- which was arbitrary- I was done, and had triple-checked my scores before I announced I was completely done. That was 27 minutes into the 90 minutes. Part II I completed fast, but not QUITE as fast. I actually had to think over a number of answers. I still completed it confidently and within 45 minutes (triple-checking again.) Part III I deliberately fitted to nearly the entire 90 minutes. I liked to do Greek word-studies, and this was the first time I was TIMED for one. So, I paced myself to match the timeframe, and enjoyed it. Frankly, I enjoyed the exam, and could have kept going for another section or two when we were done. So, in my PARTICULAR case, it wasn't that important, since I really did know the material on the exam cold. (Except for the Ready Reference.) =============== As to the exams being an indicator of what to teach more on, I seriously doubt that. Remember, this is the same man who also said that he laid out subjects so well that if there was a problem, it was in the student, not his teaching method, since that came from his abilities, which came from God. That strikes me more as someone filling in a likely explanation later. I heard a number of those back in twi, myself- such as how lcm was chosen. It occurs to me that this was certainly POSSIBLE- I've used feedback on things to do a post-mortem and find areas to focus improvement for later- but I don't think he in particular was doing that. It's even possible he said that at some point, and just never followed up on it.

Actually, to one mode of thinking, it makes a lot of sense to have a test before an "Advanced" class. The point would logically be that the material presented would be "advanced", and with limited availability of seating and the committment of the person taking it, it is logical to ensure that the new student is sufficiently grounded in the foundational level of discussion, and ready to delve into new material, or old material in an entirely different manner. So, it makes sense that written "Home Studies", say, be required, or that the previous 2 levels be taken at least twice. Or that an exam be given. What makes a lot LESS sense is that the exam wasn't BINDING. There was no issued grade, no "pass/fail" nor "Acceptable, Exceeds Expectations, etc" nor any other descriptor. As I was told-in writing- having sat thru it was sufficient to tell me what I needed to focus on until then. (Which was correct in my case-the only thing I didn't buzzsaw through was a set of number & letter references concerning "holy spirit', which was a completely artificial system that was nonetheless duplicated in the Ready-Reference glued into the back of my Bible. So I didn't NEED to focus on anything further.) There SHOULD have been a scoring system, and a score beyond which you needed to retake a test and try again for another class. In hindsight, the practical upshot of me taking that test was to give me a confident feeling about my preparation level, and to give me another hoop to jump through. I don't know if either actually was intended. (Could have been both, neither, or either.) ====== Oh, and when I was AT the AC, another student had a copy of that book, and was reading exerpts from it. One of the warning signs (I read over his shoulder) of occult or demonic activity was denial of the Trinity. Given the context of this statement, it was amusing- much moreso for the other guy than me, he just was amused as heck.

Any answer I could give would be speculation and supposition. Which I'm giving now... My impression here is similar to the reaction at hq when vpw announced that people could build their houses on-site, so long as they agreed that the ownership would revert to twi when they died. Almost nobody took him up on it. (IIRC, there was exactly one mentioned.) Seems people didn't like the "fine print" on that agreement. I'm thinking the LICENSING AGREEMENT for this class offered little and asked much, benefitting cg but not the organization. That seems to me to be the most likely reason. Other possible reasons include personal conflict/spite, legal inability to sign the agreement as written, and other, more esoteric ones. He may even have tried to "guilt" them into accepting the agreement- by setting up the class, getting people to commit to being there, then springing the fine print on the organization at the last minute, expecting them to agree so as not to inconvenience the arrivals. Pick your reason-one of these, some of these, or none of these. I lack sufficient information to state any of them confidently.

*reads post slowly* Well, that certainly clarifies a number of things. In 1989, a new entity made to look exactly like the Way of Great Britain was formed, called the Way in Great Britain, Ltd. It was legally distinct from twi, and retained a name still connecting them to it in the minds of nearly any observer. The average schmoe-unless told there was a change- would think there was none- and if he read the fine print and saw it was different, probably would suppose he just read incorrectly. I DO know that the name "Way in Great Britain" wasn't tossed around like Gartmore House was- which means SOMETHING.

Possibly the reason Sunesis "failed to mention" them is because this hasn't happened yet. In my time at the GSC (which is not ALL the time but predates Y2K, IIRC) this has not happened. We have not had "groups" of "trinitarians and people who never were in twi" at all, let alone who "decided to come here and derail, mock and give those who are not in love with twi and vp a very hard time." What we HAVE had is one person, not a "group" who is a "trinitarian" (ooo, a Trinitarian, call the cops) who DID take pfal, who wrote an analysis of certain things concerning vpw and twi. He was INVITED here to post, and has posted. Those posts were on topic for their threads, and not "derailing." They disagreed, they did not "mock". They informed, and weren't DESIGNED to give anyone a hard time. That having been said, I expect that tactfully-phrased true information about vpw will feel like "a hard time" to people determined to pretend they don't exist. There ARE polite ways to disagree and discuss. twi's methods were NEVER polite- they use ridicule, distort the positions of others, and put forth that everyone who doesn't agree with them are in error, foolish, or worse. Many people formerly of twi learned to do that in twi. Some of those people have moved on since then. Some of those people still rely on it, however. many people who disagree on many things-including Christians and non-Christians- get along quite peaceably at the GSC. According to twi, you would think that divide alone would make discussion, let alone peaceable, intelligent discussion, impossible. Well, people are often capable of things not imagined in the sterile, barren little world painted by twi. ========= Oh, and for the record, depicting one man who rarely posts as an organized conspiracy, I consider that depiction indicative of something all by itself.