WordWolf

I'll go a step further. I have confidence towards God, that the perfection that is the result of all the events into the new heaven and earth will be BETTER than the perfection seen long ago, way back when. Isaiah 64:4. (KJV) "4For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him." God's good like that.

I wanted to go back to this post again, because something else hit me as I reread it. It's about Joseph. I've taught much the same point as is here. Here's a recap of the "Joseph incident", as I shall call it here... I think it's Jacob who has all these sons. He had 2 sons from Rachel, the wife he WANTED, and the rest from Leah, the wife he ended up with. This helps explain why he was partial to Joseph and Benjamin, when you read the accounts. (Rachel died in childbirth, giving birth to Benjamin.) God gave Joseph a dream of the future, doubled, which showed his brothers bowing down to him. When he TOLD THEM (why tell them?), they got envious, and when their father designated him the heir (heir apparent), they decided to kill him, then showed him mercy by selling him into slavery instead. Joseph continues to serve God. After a number of years, and some misadventures where Joseph was completely innocent and spent some years in jail, God shows Pharaoh a dream he can't understand, and Joseph is brought out to explain it fully. It warns of 7 years of great prosperity, to be followed by 7 years of famine. Joseph advises Pharaoh to store 20% of their plenty to cover the 7 famine years. Pharaoh puts Joseph in charge of his kingdom, giving him power of attorney over everything except Pharaoh himself. During 7 years of plenty, Joseph has 20% of the output placed in storage. During the 7 years of famine, they have more than enough food for themselves, and when others want to trade for food, Joseph is able to sell them food. (I've heard it told that THIS, SPECIFICALLY, is why Egypt had all that famous treasure. I believe this is PARTIALLY true, and the rest is due to the length of the empire in history and its reach during that time.) Joseph's dad sends Joseph's brothers to negotiate with Egypt for food, and they open with bowing down before Pharaoh's administrator, Joseph- as God showed Joseph long ago, which may be said to have STARTED this whole ordeal. Joseph plays a rough practical joke on his brothers-who of course don't recognize him. (He uses a translator to keep from using his recognizable voice.) Eventually, he admits he's their brother. THAT's when the verse comes up that's quoted above. "Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive." Joseph never claims God wanted Joseph to be killed, sold into slavery, or put in jail. Those are all the intentions and acts of others, all acting on their own free wills. However, God took all their freewill actions, and incorporated them into his long-term plans. All of this meant Joseph invited the nation of Israel into Egypt so they had food for the remaining famine years, which meant they survived, and prospered. (Leading eventually to them being SO prosperous, that a later Pharaoh would oppress them, leading Israel to cry to God for deliverance-after which God raises up Moses, but we're not talking about that.) Joseph correctly credited God with saving the nation of Israel by that, but never charges God for the years of bad things he endured. Interesting observation. I wish some people would see that God's Omniscience and man's free will are not antithetical- they work together because a God who IS that smart (being Omniscient and all) worked it all out.

I keep forgetting a lot of posters here don't visit other boards. There's plenty of other messageboards out there. I've served as a moderator, an admin, and declined offers to BE a moderator at various boards. One of the things the staff HAS to do is to police the board. That means that, sooner or later, they will have to decide some things- posts, whatever- need to be addressed. I've seen fully unmoderated boards, and the ones I'm thinking of died off. Why? Eventually, they were visited by trolls, and there was NO corrective mechanism. So, the trolls totally derailed every discussion, and eventually all the legit posters walked out in frustration. That's why staff HAS TO make judgement calls. Sometimes that's easy-posts that are advertisements, bots selling things, etc. Sometimes it's NOT so easy. That's why the staff needs discernment- what looks harmless to some is the first stage in some bigger plot sometimes, and other times something suspicious-looking is completely innocent. None of that means staff just doesn't judge. They are REQUIRED to judge. Sometimes, something can be corrected with one or more regulars saying something. I've known boards where that's all the non-ads need. Sometimes, it takes staff saying something before someone will admit they need to adjust something. Sometimes, someone is of no use whatsoever to a community and needs to get banned. Staff have to try to recognize which is which, and that's the hard part. But the worst possibility is the staff refusing to judge. Then they're surrendering to entropy.

I KNOW I've seen that one SOMEWHERE....

1:"Unfortunately, we've found there's little profit in trading with the Federation. In order to comply with your commerce laws, we've had to pay a series of taxes and fees that have made the cost of doing business with you too high." 2:"What sort of taxes and fees are you referring to?" 1:"For example... on a recent shipment of Karemman Fleece, a four percent surcharge was added to pay for inspecting the cargo for 'changeling infiltrators.'" 2:"What?" 3:"You never know where they might be hiding." 1:"Another three percent of the shipment's value was lost due to 'unforeseen' currency fluctuations." 3:"There was a run on the Bolian Credit Exchange... played havoc with the markets..." 1:"A six percent tariff was imposed to help offset the 'lost income of Tarkalian sheep herders.'" 3:"Hardworking people... you have to feel for them..." 1:"Should I go on, Captain... ?" 2:"No... I think you've made your point..." "Sensor range was limited, so we learned to use an old active-scan system to navigate." "It works by echo-location... we send out a modulated tetrion pulse, and if it reflects off the hull of a ship, we can approximate its location." "Won't these pulses give away our position as well?" "We'll have to alter course and speed after each one." "Helm, take us to a higher altitude." "We're gaining altitude..." "How can you tell?" "I've got the lobes..." "You've got them, too. It's a Ferengi expression. Usually, when we say someone has "the lobes," we mean they have a keen business sense. That's you. I'll admit it. You fooled me. I thought you were just another easy mark. But you saw right through my little scam, and taught me a thing or two about doing business in the Gamma Quadrant. I guess I've gotten lazy. I'm used to dealing with the Federation. You think I was cheating you, you have no idea what I was doing to them. They still haven't caught on. And if someone like me can put one over on them, think of what someone like you could do." "Someone with my... lobes?" "Exactly. And I'm just the man to help you do it. we could become rich, rich beyond our dreams." "You... are despicable." I hate the Gamma Quadrant... " "... but then the brothers started to argue about how to divide the money they got for the kava root. The oldest said that since it was his idea to bring it to the city, he should get more. The youngest objected, saying he was the one who'd tended the field where... " "One of these diodes connects the warhead to the power source... the other is the firing mechanism." "How do you know that?" "I saw a design schematic once." "Where?" "At the Ministry of Trade on Karemma. We sell these torpedoes to the Jem'Hadar." "You're kidding." "No." "I thought you said you'd never sold substandard merchandise... It was supposed to explode on impact, wasn't it?" "Maybe I should offer them a refund..." "How do you feel?" "Terrible..." "That's not surprising considering that you took in a few lungfuls of Fluorine." "Next time remind me to hold my breath...I take it we're stuck in here..."

Actually, the most conservative numbers of the deaths of the Holocaust generally place the totals at 9 million-11 million currently, with one more general estimate as 17 million, and one measure in 1946 in France counted the body count at 26 million. In each of these numbers, Jews make up the largest percentage, with numbers as low as 5 million (only counting those who can be confirmed as having been Jews who were killed there and were confirmed so), and most go higher (admitting records don't account for all the Jews killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/Holocaust Meanwhile, WTH's link is to Faurisson, who denied the gas chambers were there and that gas chambers were used to kill Jews. We've already heard from eyewitness accounts of them here, so I don't think we need to debunk that any further, but we could. Besides, the claims of those who wish to pretend the Holocaust didn't happen have already been addressed in great detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial ========== Holocaust Denial- the Refuge of the Happily Undereducated.

I know it's popular with a few people to consistently mischaracterize most of us and claim we said nothing in twi was any good, but that doesn't mean we ever said that. Very few posters ever claimed such a position. It's that the bad was SO bad, in specific ways, that we consider any possible GAIN to be not worth the exposure- in hindsight, and think the gains could have been received in much less adulterated fashions.

Point of information: Nebuchadnezzar wasn't "changed into a beast", he was given what I call a "feral lobotomy." His body stayed the same, but his intellect was sent on a 7-year vacation.

Got to suggest the Day of Pentecost is some sort of repeatable incident, and not unique in history, just to try to hang onto your practice. Part of me admires that kind of persistence even in the face of reason. Interesting how you can even look at verses in I Corinthians 14 and still say there's no basis for saying this was not supposed to be policy. I Corinthians 14:26-28 26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Of course, one may consider oneself so spiritual that they can disregard I Corinthians 14, since they have a pipeline to God Almighty. However.... I Corinthians 14:37-40. 37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner. Hey, that might well be one reason the Corinthians were doing it wrong- they may have mistaken the Pentecost incident for a normative experience, and that's why Paul had to tell them "don't do it this way." Because he DID tell them "don't do it this way", as almost all of us can see without difficulty. You guys are just grasping at any straw that will allow you to defend vp. vp claimed it was supported by Scripture, but we actually looked at ALL the verses, and saw it wasn't so.... you began by assuming he was correct and did your best to hide from verses that showed he was incorrect. When are you going to come to The Word of God and stop elevating the word of vpw over it?

Not really, but since you asked nicely, I'll give it a shot. A centrifuge spins. The purpose OF a centrifuge is to use the force of the spinning to separate substances. If you had, say, water with several kinds of sand and clay mixed into it, placing the mixture in a centrifuge would separate them, with the densest to the "bottom" (the outside of the spin), and each of the others in a layer, in order of density, separating all of them from the water. Then each is now all of one thing, whether sand, or clay, or water, and can be addressed apart from the others. If one left the container sitting out for very, very long periods of time, gravity might separate them as well-but the wait is very, very long. As I considered the end-times, it occurred to me that they function as an intensification of the process by which souls determine their orientation, whether towards God or away from God. The process will be compressed in something like a 7-year timeframe. That's a life's decisions and actions squeezed into 7 years. That's why I considered it like a centrifuge. It will speed up the process, and do what was already happening- just a lot slower. As you can see, the same process, just a lot slower- happens day by day, decision by decision, right now.

I've long concluded that the "End-Times"- the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation- will function as a sort of "centrifuge". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifuge A centrifuge uses centripetal force to separate out various substances of varying density. Although the "End-Times" are "concentrated", it really hit me now that the same process operates NOW, just a LOT slower.

This is a good thread to see how many posters are willing to try to discredit verses or distract from them to try to remove their applicability to vpw and others. So posters, please post your true feelings. Too bad.

We have "false teachers" TEACHING SENSUALITY- to follow lusts and deeds of the flesh, greed and exploitation of Christians to whom they lied. We have those who have trained their hearts to greed. They served their appetites, and SIN. They taught "we're free and not under law", and used that as an EXCUSE to SIN unreservedly, and TEACH OTHERS TO SIN. They despised God's counsel. They taught others to perform immoral acts. Now, on the other hand, we had vpw......

II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.) "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." -------------- [God warned that false prophets AND false teachers would come, and introduce "destructive heresies" secretly. They would teach (by action and lesson) SENSUALITY- a following-after of lusts and the deeds of the flesh. Their GREED was the motive for EXPLOITING CHRISTIANS, and why they lied to them.] 12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; [Animals operate primarily from instinct. They don't really REASON, or deal in abstractions. Humans were granted reason to make their own decisions. Humans have no excuse when they choose to embrace instincts. Some humans have chosen to sin in the daytime. That's one thing, but here, WORSE is being spoken of- these chronic, voluntary sinners choose to DECEIVE and pretend they are fine, upstanding leaders- with small exceptions for when they're interacting with their fellow Christians.] ---------------- 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. 17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. ======= [balaam was a prophet of God, and was supposed to SERVE GOD. Instead Balaam served his appetites, Balaam served SIN. Balaam loved MONEY, and exhibited MADNESS over it. He really, really loved money. None of us dislike it, but this man was willing to practice idolatry over it. People like him are haughty and full of self-pride, and teach others to sin and follow lusts. They speak of FREEDOM, even FREEDOM and LIBERTY IN CHRIST, while serving sin wholeheartedly.] ========= Jude 3-11 3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. [We're being warned that among the Christians, some UNGODLY people have turned God's GRACE- and the freedoms under Christ- and made them an EXCUSE TO SIN.] 5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" ========= [This is serious stuff. God's putting these guys in the same category as Sodom and Gomorrah.] === 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. [There's the connection to Balaam again. They are envious and despise God's counsel like Cain, and money produced an idolatry like with Balaam.] ========= Revelation 2:13-15. 13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. ----- [balaam wasn't just out for MONEY. (Balaam wasn't a sinner for one long, greedy weekend. He was weak of character besides that. Balaam taught Israel to perform idolatry and IMMORAL ACTS. I bet there was money in it for him to do that....] Do these warnings remind anyone of anyone?

II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. -------------- 12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. 17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. Jude 3-11 3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. Revelation 2:13-15. 13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. -----

It's come up that if God's perception is limited strictly to the present- as some have suggested- then all He can offer is a general hope that everything turns out all right. (No, it's not been posted ON THIS THREAD, but I've read this suggested.) God gives prophecies of things to come. If God is not already aware of them definitely coming to pass when He issues them, then He's deceiving people by leading them to believe He's giving them 100% reliable information. I trust none of us here would suggest that God DOESN'T know a prophecy will come to pass when He issues it. The promise in Genesis 3:15 is one of the most famous ones, and it was about 4000 years (more or less) after it was issued, perhaps, when it came to pass. If God ONLY knew things 4000 years in the future, I'd find that a little silly. He PARTIALLY knows the future? He PARTLY knows the end from the beginning? That would be injecting opinion- or, as vpw called it, "private interpretation." We trust God 100%, or we SHOULD. God knows the future, and gives prophecies. We can trust them 100%. It's been noted that the God who doesn't know the future is a more accessible God, perhaps a more "warm and fuzzy" God because He's in the same boat as the rest of us- He doesn't know what's going to happen any more than WE do. He can comfort us, but not offer us security or confidence. In short, trading "God is Loving" (which they embrace) for "God is All-Powerful" (which they reject.) I can empathize with those seeking answers while rejecting their impassioned attempt to find answers as having sought the WRONG answers. No, I think that was entirely on-topic.

"Police Squad"?

I've never heard the NAME "Idiocracy" before.

How ridiculous your logic is: the day of Pentecost was a SPECIAL CASE, and no verse exists to indicate- either in Acts or elsewhere- that this was meant to ever be repeated. Hello. I Corinthians 14:23, 27, 28, 40. 23Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner. ====== Those believers were together and all of them spoke in tongues at the same time. They were PRACTICING ERROR. I agree. This is also the ONLY instructions concerning speaking in tongues when Christians aren't alone. Finding pretext to disregard them is NOT based on a verse of Scripture. It is, as vpw would have called it, "private interpretation." ======== As to "a black cloud coming into the room as soon as the fourth person spoke", Paul certainly would have pointed out that this crude caricature wouldn't happen- but that doesn't mean it wasn't a bad idea and not to be done- and certainly not to be made a POLICY. If Corinthians was correcting PRACTICAL error, they were already DOING THIS and Paul was instructed to tell them to STOP. As well live in Corinth, read this, and conclude that the absence of a "black cloud" meant Paul was wrong. WHEN Scripture says something's not to be done,it's unScriptural to say the opposite. Like when some verses say to only have sex with one's spouse, and someone tells other people that God wouldn't mind for them to commit adultery with them, or that orgies are permitted by God but not "best." Or when an Epistle says not to do something, and excuses are found to do it anyway.

twi never seems to give a straight answer on lcm's status. He WAS fired and kicked off grounds. Whenever that happened to everyone else, they were denied any connection to twi, their FAMILY was kicked out and off grounds, and of course no support was ever given. Oh, and their reputation was smeared. With lcm, of course, this is all different. People aren't even allowed to ASK QUESTIONS about him- and asking will draw twi's ire on the questioner. lcm's family is still on grounds, supported by twi and Donna's paycheck exceeds SOME OF THE VPs. Not bad for not really having a job. twi quietly still supports lcm. He's lived in twi-owned houses, and nobody's answering if he's getting any money from them. Of course, since twi's pretty much guaranteed he doesn't need to pay alimony and is supporting his family, that ALONE is considerable support.

"... but then the brothers started to argue about how to divide the money they got for the kava root. The oldest said that since it was his idea to bring it to the city, he should get more. The youngest objected, saying he was the one who'd tended the field where... " "One of these diodes connects the warhead to the power source... the other is the firing mechanism." "How do you know that?" "I saw a design schematic once." "Where?" "At the Ministry of Trade on Karemma. We sell these torpedoes to the Jem'Hadar." "You're kidding." "No." "I thought you said you'd never sold substandard merchandise... It was supposed to explode on impact, wasn't it?" "Maybe I should offer them a refund..."

For one thing, the claim that Holocaust deniers approach things in a fashion even vaguely approaching logical.

Oh, and for the benefit of those (or one) who don't see the benefit of it, I'm going to ask a slightly self-serving question. Are others of you appreciating my posts on this thread to date? The ones about what God knows, of course, not the ones about rudeness. If you are, please say so.