WordWolf

Actually, 'Stay alive- no matter what occurs!' would have been the giveaway. ========= Ok, I don't THINK we've done this one. "I'm gonna give you a little advice Claire: 'Scrape 'em off. You wanna save somebody? Save yourself.' "

Do you mean, all the marked and avoided people are speaking up, or that they marked and avoided twi in response? To this day, there are people in twi you will announce that to, and they will nod and say "Yes, that's what God decided. Would you like some Kool-Aid?"

This really wasn't so much a "it's the product of the times" or "it's the product of the locals", as we've already seen. This was probably more a vpw-specific thing. All accounts of Old Man Wierwille was that he was a tyrant who kept his boot on his family's neck. (vpw rebelled by hiding in the forest and shirking his chores, but never went to his face and risked a beatdown.) He also was rough with anyone OUTSIDE his family who he disagreed with. Now, how did vpw view this? Did he say "I saw this didn't work-I shall be more human with MY family, MY loved ones, the people I interact with"? No- he adopted this as his own Modus Operandi. "He was a mean man."- one of his loved ones at his funeral. vpw's view of women-by his own words- was deriding and belittling. vpw, pg-198, TW:LiL... "'Women never tell the truth.'" "There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.'" "..turned to his wife and said, 'Honey, I'm going with VP.' She said something to him like, 'How long will you be?' And he said, 'That's none of your business.' That was it, and my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes. just from the way he handled her." I don't know how wide-spread this kind of thing was at the time. I don't know how wide-spread this kind of thing is now. I DO know it's unScriptural, and was wrong THEN, and wrong NOW, and will continue to be wrong.

Correct. I would also have accepted the cover done by the Ataris. They changed one line- "Out on the road today, saw a Dan Quayle sticker on a Cadillac." That was fast. Your turn, Raf!

If you really want to discuss this, start a thread in Doctrinal, please, and I'll meet you there.

This phrase appears ONCE in the New Testament. King James Version, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." NIV, Luke 1:35 "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." NASB, Luke 1:35 "The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." ESV, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy--the Son of God." CEV, Luke 1:35 "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come down to you, and God's power will come over you. So your child will be called the holy Son of God." Then there's the less literal versions. The only one who mentions a "thing" is the KJV. In fact, even the NEW KJV says.... NKJV, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God." Last time I studied this in the Greek, I found the most literal word-for-word translation for that phrase matches the NIV and the NKV. The word "hagion" in the Stephens Text (per the Gordon Ricker-Berry Interlinear) is what the KJV renders "holy THING." That's a little odd, since the plural of this word is what's rendered "SAINTS" in the Epistles in the KJV, the "holy ones". This "thing" thing is ERROR. twi never corrected it because this ERROR supports their ERROR in Doctrine. "See? Even the angel referred to Jesus as a 'thing.'" Bull-muffins.

I'd like to examine this first. twi said Jesus was referred to as a "holy thing", and used the King James Version to support that. But twi checked a lot of things against the Greek and found they didn't match what was in the KJV..... and NEVER CHECKED "holy thing" to see if it matched....... I figured one of these days, someone would bring this up..... Ever look at the Greek on this? You would if you checked a few other versions....

Seems to me that the more people talk about debbil spurts zooming around and doing stuff, the more the people are full of balloons. I've yet to see anyone COMPETENT in the field who talked a LOT on the subject. (Not that I think the subject ITSELF is error- just most of the so-called authorities and self-appointed experts on it.) Not by coincidence, twi was LOADED with self-appointed experts on the subject, starting with the woefully-clueless vpw and all the way through most of the inner cadre, and many of the higher-ups everywhere.

Of especial concern is the effect that one of the scenes in Session One has on parents. That's when vpw makes up an imaginary woman and child in an attempt to get people to believe his "fear is negative believing and it makes things happen" doctrine. He says that this woman (like very many mothers and fathers, including much of his audience) worried about the safety of her only child, all the time. In this respect, she's just like millions of mothers who see their kids arrive safely home every day after they worried about them. Where she's different is that one day, the kid is struck by a car and killed. vpw is VERY SPECIFIC about the cause of death. Is it the driver? Is it the faulty brakes? Is it a poorly-constructed road, which produced a blind turn? Is it even the result of the child being improperly socialized? No. "YOU KNOW WHAT KILLED THAT BOY. IT WAS THE FEAR......IN THE HEART.....OF THAT MOTHER." If that mother existed, vpw was acting much as Joel's miserable comforters- blaming HER PERSONALLY for bad things that happened, despite God causing the rain to fall on the just and unjust. A number of people here have talked about themselves or their parents having been traumatized by that segment. Can you say-in good conscience-that you are ready to expose a new group of people to such a destructive, error-filled doctrine?

Any chance this is "Last of the Mohicans"?

Now THAT's the germ for an interesting story.... the Ferengi did not participate in the Dominion wars.... so the Ferengi Marauders are still around, but at the end of the war, everyone else's supplies of warships are low. Sounds like an opportunity....

Next song. "I thought I knew what love was- what did I know. Those days are gone forever-I should just let them go, but"

Correct! Off the "Now and Zen" album, a sweet set of songs, IMHO. If I'm right, it's a song quite descriptive of my mood this second, "DAZED AND CONFUSED", from Plant's days IN Led Zepellin. I always thought the line was "the soul of a woman was created for love".

"Move over mister - step on back in the crowd! 'Cause she's a whole lotta sister 'bout to drive me wild. Lotta places I've been, lotta names, lotta words, No one compares to my real gone girl."

Ok, George, just post the name...

"A what?" "Certainly you know what a 'headache' is, Doctor." "Of course. But I don't often encounter one." "What are these Ferengi up to? 'Stand by, Enterprise.' Stand by for what?" "It may be true that headaches were once quite common... but this was in the days before the brain was charted... ... before we understood the nature of pain... when we were suffering from such things as the common cold." "It's an old style starship, Constellation Class, heading this way under impulse power, sir." (The scripts all read "Constitution Class", but it was dubbed in post-production, since they decided to make a new ship class for this episode.) "Do not be alarmed. It is a gift from us...with which we honor the 'Hero of Maxia.'" "But now that vessel is yours, if you wish to have it." "We are not selling it to him?" "Call it an act of friendship." "At no cost!? Ugly. Very ugly!" "USS Stargazer. Constellation Class. Starfleet Registry NCC 2893."

Here's how I see it. The actual deeds, in any effective form, will have been wiped out. I Corinthians 3:11-15 (NASB) 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. So, each person's deeds will either be worth remembering, or be destroyed in the fire, depending on the specific deed. (As of the Christian's "Day of Judgement.") As to remembering specifics, I don't think we'll have gaps in our memories, but be able to contextualize them properly so they're not as troublesome as some memories some of us carry. That's how I interpret that SPECIFICALLY when reading Revelation 21:4. " 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." That's all IMHO, of course.

Next song. "Lotta places I've been, lotta names, lotta words, No one compares to my real gone girl"

Since he made the "train" and not the "bus", this isn't "A Day in the Life." It has to be the other song with that line. Paul Schaefer's "When the Radio Is On." In all honesty, I only know that song from discussing it with you, but that was a long time ago....

"A what?" "Certainly you know what a 'headache' is, Doctor." "Of course. But I don't often encounter one." "What are these Ferengi up to? 'Stand by, Enterprise.' Stand by for what?" "It may be true that headaches were once quite common... but this was in the days before the brain was charted... ... before we understood the nature of pain... when we were suffering from such things as the common cold." "It's an old style starship, Constellation Class, heading this way under impulse power, sir." (The scripts all read "Constitution Class", but it was dubbed in post-production, since they decided to make a new ship class for this episode.) "Do not be alarmed. It is a gift from us...with which we honor the 'Hero of Maxia.'"

"A what?" "Certainly you know what a 'headache' is, Doctor." "Of course. But I don't often encounter one." (Personally, I think that's bs, since Geordi REGULARLY got headaches due to his 'VISOR' interface. Also, 1000 people on the ship, and NOBODY complains of headaches? C'mon....) "What are these Ferengi up to? 'Stand by, Enterprise.' Stand by for what?" "It may be true that headaches were once quite common... but this was in the days before the brain was charted... ... before we understood the nature of pain... when we were suffering from such things as the common cold." (Personally, I think that's bs, since we've seen characters GET colds, including Wesley. But this script suggests otherwise. Somebody's overly optimistic about the future....)

Actually, one amazing thing I found, when I was REQUESTING personal accounts of each of the ex-twi presidents (including rfr), was that some people did have pleasant recollections of vpw, at least some of the time, and some people did have pleasant recollections of lcm, at least some of the time, but NOBODY had a single positive memory of rfr to add to the discussions. EVERYBODY who interacted with her personally had bad things to say about her, without a single exception to toss into the mix. Of course, those who know anything about her would need to be limited to staff/ex-staff, and those "in" from about 2000 on. Most posters dont fit in either category, and not everyone who does has something to recall about her. Me, I'm waiting for the announcement that she's received twi's standard treatment- that is, that she's been kicked out with no means of support because she's too old to be of use. It's gone around; I'm waiting for it to come around....

I agree- plagiarized error is no less error than the original error, and who plagiarizes it doesn't make it any LESS error. So, it was error when Kenyon taught it, it was error when vpw plagiarized Kenyon, it was error when Hinn plagiarized Kenyon, and so on. Hagin HAS had no formal theological training. He has not even received a Bachelors or Masters inTheology, let alone any formal study of Bible languages or history. I also agree trying to absolve plagiarism-and claim accuracy- by clever words and lying about their BEING plagiarism in no way absolves plagiarism, neither does it prove accuracy. Even if a lot of people taught the same thing as Hinn, a lot of people can be wrong. "Vox populi" is not a God-given measure of truth. I think gnosticism has remained around and was still around before Kenyon spread his version of it as the precursor to the Word-Faith movement. Further, the feel-good aspect of it for the wealthy and the financially-affluent - "if I am successful, it is because I earned it through my faith and positive believing, and those who suffer earned their suffering through their doubt, fear and negative believing"- make it appealing to those who have the microphone. That's why it was such an easy sell for Oprah, for example. I don't know about it "taking over", though, I think that overstates the case. No, they exist anywhere someone has a faulty doctorate and plagiarizes and so on.Skipping the real work and lying were hardly invented by vpw, nor did he own a charter on the process of swindling under the flag of God. Some people still do it now. In other words, "if you're successful, people will accuse you of plagiarism, lying about your credentials, and other wrong things." I disagree. I find that a smokescreen to excuse the actuality of plagiarism, lying about credentials, and other wrong things. Those are wrong whether or not a man catches you, and even if I like the person who did them.

Hmmm........ ============ "Benny Hinn was born in 1953 in Israel to a Greek father and an Armenian mother. He was raised in the Greek Orthodox [false] religion. Hinn claims that while he was a young boy of 11 years of age in Israel, God first appeared to him, and has been appearing to him ever since. At the age of 14, Hinn moved to Canada with his parents. While attending high school there, he says he had visions of himself preaching before huge crowds. He also claims that God healed him of a stuttering problem so that he could become a preacher. Yet in spite of the visions and God's appearing to him for several years, Hinn marks the year of his being born again as 1972 when he was about 20 years old. It was at a Kathryn Kuhlman service the following year that he says he had a "profound spiritual experience." Hinn readily admits that much of the misunderstanding that has arisen from his teachings is the result of his lack of formal Bible training. In fact, almost immediately after his having been "born again," Hinn says, "The Lord launched me into ministry almost overnight." "Although Hinn states that his ministry throughout the 1970s was shaped by the writings of men like D.L. Moody and R.A. Torrey, he was a strong proponent of "revelation knowledge" -- new truths revealed to him by God directly -- that were not contained within Scripture. Only recently has he stated that he will no longer claim revelation knowledge as the authority for his teachings. [see the end of this report of Hinn once again claiming revelation knowledge]." ============= Sounds vaguely familiar.... For those who missed the similarities I saw, they are, in order... A) a claim to have been marked out for God at a young age. B) a claim of a special vision for God- which completely failed to transform his life and ministry C) lack of formal Bible training, but God supposedly selected HIM D) a claim to have received direct revelation not contained in Scripture

"Five Steps in Action form 1.Ask without fear, knowing that God said you would receive His Holy Spirit. 2.Speak no more English. 3.Come unto Jesus. Open your mouth wide and drink in the Holy Spirit, breathing in as deeply as possible. You are to know that at this moment you receive the Holy Spirit by faith. As you breathe in, you are being filled with the Spirit. " (this is an occult technique in which the prana energy fills the air, nowhere does Scripture tell one to do this to receive the Holy Spirit ,who already lives inside all the believers. While I believe in a continual filling as the Scripture teaches, this is not what they are describing.1 Cor.12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." What Spirit than are they receiving if they breathe him in.) [it needs to further be pointed out that this also is found in Oneness Pentecostalism. In J.E.Stiles booklet " Why receive the Holy Spirit and how to receive him" on p.21 states "Now as you open your mouth, and breath in, don't pray, don't talk don't say a single word, just breathe in deeply... If you will sit quietly for a time...just breathing in the breath of God, you certainly will feel a moving of the Spirit.. Just lift your voice and speak the sounds that seem easy to make,...After you have spoken for considerable time, stop and breathe deeply again and you will get a a fresh anointing.] 4."Raise your voice. Use your lips, tongue, and voice to speak out the praise in an unknown language as the Spirit gives you the utterance. [Recently at John Hagee's Church Kenneth Copeland spoke explaining how his wife got filled with the Spirit "And the church Gloria came from, dear God. She was raised in a little church out in the country, they didn’t have a pastor half the time. Didn’t believe anything. She’d been saved and filled with the Holy Ghost 3 months before she ever heard the word new birth. She did not know what it was! "(Aug 18,1999 Hagess program on TBN) How is this possible in light of her booklet instructing others to be filled a certain way by asking specifically and breathing the Spirit it in. This shows these people are confused. 5.Allow the rivers of living water to flow from you with the greatest of freedom. You are magnifying God-extolling (praising enthusiastically) the Father God who is Love and offering up the praise of thanksgiving unto Him. 'Now that you have received the Holy Spirit, rely on the Word that Jesus spoke, "He shall remain with you forever." (note: He will remain with you forever long before you did all this, if you received Christ the way the Bible teaches. She goes on to say Jesus said the holy Spirit would be given to teach you, not just some things, but ALL the truth." =============== I'm dubious about the leap they make about "prana energy." I think Stiles' error was more about garbling his explanation rather than streamlining it. (Eventually, vpw managed to streamline it from this version here.) One irony with un-plagiarized material is that often someone doesn't try to improve on the 1.0 version of an explanation, which means it could be explained better, and the current form can lead to misunderstandings. However, I do think this all shows Kenyon AND Stiles were both ripped off by more than just vpw.