WordWolf

One of the commentaries on Sun Tzu's "the Art of War" included this story. One emperor challenged his great general to make a disciplined force of the Emperor's concubines. (To show he could do anything, not so they'd actually go into battle.) The general equipped them, appointed officers among them, and had the basics demonstrated (parade-ground, exhibition stuff, not real fighting stuff.) Then he gave a simple instruction for attention with the weapon over the shoulder. The "army" giggled and did not carry it out, resulting instead in dropped weapons and much tittering. The general pointed out that if a general's directions are unclear, it is the general's fault, but if his directions are clear, and the soldiers STILL do not carry them out, it is the fault of the OFFICERS. After some "officers" were beheaded, the military unit had no difficulty carrying out the previous instruction. The point being, that if ONE person turns out bad, it's likely the person. If ALL of them turn bad, there's a problem with the PROGRAM, and the people in CHARGE are responsible. vpw had ZERO training in any programs himself, and had ZERO study in how to run a successful program. He figured you could just cobble something together easily. His first attempt failed so completely he disbanded it and blamed them. His second attempt may have followed his instructions, but that's more the result of him demonstrating harshness (like beheading concubines to show you're serious) than him actually having an excellent program. The complete failure of the program was the fault of those running it, which is to say, vpw. Of course, what's considered a "flaw" depends on who's doing the consideration. They followed orders unquestioningly, and paid on time. That was what vpw considered a success. (Following orders was always his big sign, and how lcm got to be his fair-haired boy. I have documentation on the money thing, from a reliable source, if you need it.) As to the flaws being corrected, the program had people paying money to perform manual labour. They were taught some Bible (which they didn't have to go in for- everybody learned some Bible), and did calisthenics (we have photos), were loaned out to farmers for manual labour, and kept up the grounds. In between, there were some "leadership training" things taught by people who had little business doing so since they had no formal training to do so. We also had people sent hitchhiking, or transported in the homemade trailer hitches like cattle. Some people were hospitalized, and some died, as the result of these measures which saved money. All of that was because the program required hazarding the lives and safety of its students so they could follow the directives of unqualified climbers and go up some mountansides. When it was pointed out that women were getting raped hitchhiking, vpw himself insisted it remain a requirement for the program, since they could potentially get raped anywhere. (His comments are in the "Heart of the Way Corps" tapes.) So, vpw considered the frugality of the program to be paramount, even when was kept at the expense of the safety of the students. So, people were EXPENDABLE, but the money came in, and the people in the program always did what they were told, and much of what was taught was of dubious benefit. Depending on who you ask, that makes it a great success, or a great failure.

Ok, next one, then..... "The moon. Yes, that will be my home. My paradise. I shall find there, all the souls I love -- Socrates, Galileo..."

Or at least a working-definition of a "tiddlywinks Christian". Do they suck eggs? Do they play tiddlywinks? Can it core a apple? ===== Actually, I think very few-if any-object to vpw using Bullinger's books. They object to blatant violation of Bullinger's copyrights, and deception and fraud performed USING Bullinger's books. Many of us have books of Bullinger. Many of us have read them. Many of us have quoted from them and recommended them. We just don't pretend we WROTE them.

"THE FIRST DUTY." When Picard finally gets to see Boothby again, Boothby replies "I remember you. What happened to your hair?" Boothby gets great lines. With a faint look of disappointment, at that! I hear the Voyager fans consider "Threshold" the worst Trek episode ever, due to it being a continuous string of science fantasy so far from plausible that suspension of disbelief just can't be done. (For most people.)

Wouldn't mind at all. Until then, I refuse to give up until I injure myself here trying. Ok, one more shot. "Firefly/Serenity."

This is the first I've heard of her. This is what I found, though.... http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2003/004/18.66.html http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2005/005/1.30.html

Correct. Geordi gets dating advice from Guinan. And Picard's bugged that the others don't share his love of ship models. But Worf didn't play with toys as a boy, and Data was never a boy. Go, George!

Actually, left-handers and ambidextrous people have more connections between the hemispheres. (Scans have shown more activity in the corpus collosum.) There's 4 types of side dominance: right-handed dominance (uses right hand for most things) left-handed dominance (uses left hand for most things) ambidextrous (uses either or both just as often) cross-dominance (leads with the left for some things, leads with the right for some things.) One guess as to why cross-dominance exists is that some left-handers were born left-handers, but learned to use the right-hand more, whether by being FORCED to or through acculturation. So, your story is not an uncommon one. ========== As for the things of God, IMHO, it is good to have an intellectual understanding of what you CAN understand. However, the IMPORTANT parts are the things you know in your heart. That's what has meaning, and keeps you alive. That's what motivates ACTION, and what people will remember with more depth than "he really knew those Greek words". That's why one person said "In the end, only kindness matters."

I was referring to a Saturday Night Live skit, which was of Blue Oyster Cult recording this song, and a guy at the studio (played by Christopher Walken) who kept insisting that they record it with one member playing the cowbell. Most of the band was saying to drop the instrument, but he was DETERMINED. And his line about having a fever that could only be cured with MORE COWBELL has been quoted a LOT online. I've seen versions in "signatures" that included screenshots of the scene, or of a band member hitting the cowbell in an animation.

pg-235, TW:LiL. "We started the first Way Corps then, the fall of 1969, especially for that purpose, to prepare leaders, There were nine of them-some married, some single, younger and older. They stayed until the spring, and then I gave them the privilege of leaving. You see, they never got it together among themselves. They didn't have that commitment, that discipline." pg-236, TW:LiL. "They just kept fighting among themselves. But you know what? They're all standing today, all but one, and she'll be back. She'll get tired of messing around after a while. And she'll be back because there's nowhere else to go after you have seen the greatness of the Word."

I've got a fever! And the only cure is: more cowbell!!!!!

I remember Bruce Boxleitner as Flynn in "Tron", but not really for any movies. My second guess would be the "Stargate" stable: SG-1, Atlantis, San Andreas, Vice City... (wait, those last 2 were video games...)

Uh, oh, I need a new episode! Let's see.... "I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say." "You're doing fine with me." "You're different." "No, you're different." "But I'm not trying now." "That's my point." "Oh, good lord, didn't anybody here build ships in bottles when they were boys?" "I did not play with toys." "I was never a boy." I love that second quote, myself.....

From Mrs Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve.. (p. 91) "In June of 1953, four months after Dr. Wierwille's initial trip, our family traveled with two other carloads of our friends to Calgary to take B.G. Leonard's class which he called The Gifts of the Spirit. At his Christian Training Centre, a large upstairs room over the pawnshop, our son Don and I (Mrs. W.) were students of this class from June 28 to July 15. Dr. Wierwille was with us, but of course he was not a new student, though he wanted to sit through the class again because what B.G. Leonard was teaching was so thrilling and powerful about the 'gifts' of holy spirit and about spiritual healing."

pg 207, TW:LiL: "We took his whole trip- really learned a lot about the other manifestations of the holy spirit. But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures. When I came home, I made up my mind that I was going to tie the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelation."

"Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man): attacking the person instead of attacking his argument. For example, "Von Daniken's books about ancient astronauts are worthless because he is a convicted forger and embezzler." (Which is true, but that's not why they're worthless.)" "There may be a pretense that the attack isn't happening: "In order to maintain a civil debate, I will not mention my opponent's drinking problem."" "Needling: simply attempting to make the other person angry, without trying to address the argument at hand. Sometimes this is a delaying tactic. Needling is also Ad Hominem if you insult your opponent. You may instead insult something the other person believes in ("Argumentum Ad YourMomium"), interrupt, clown to show disrespect, be noisy, fail to pass over the microphone, and numerous other tricks." Around here, that's usually a flag that the preceding posts can't be successfully argued with, so the opponent switches to personal attacks to distract from the issues. No one said that-in and of themselves-they did. You missed several paragraphs where peopleowe their lives to charity work in several countries. I know, vpw made charity-work a dirty word. Since you have the poor with you always, f' 'em. Don't give them ANYTHING. Send it all to hq instead, as tithes, abundant sharing, or PLURALITY GIVING. Ever see another group that has a phrase meaning "send us all your money except your rent and food bills"? twi had a phrase for it, which means they had the concept. Ever see another group that had that concept? It's rich to compare "receive the donations" for vpw and twi- where the money all went to hq and STAYED THERE and never went out- with groups that have performed amazing acts of mercy for people. Which is more in line with God's thinking? James 2:16-18. "16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is really not that hard for most Christians to see. The amount of intentional ignorance displayed here is incredible. First of all, vpw did not satisfy the legal requirements to avoid plagiarism in ANY country. Here's an introductory primer on the subject: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm In the actual bodies of work where he used the work of others- and we're talking entire sentences, paragraphs, and in some cases, entire book sections, not just "this idea was taught by this guy"- full credit must be given. All OTHER Christians have NO DIFFICULTY doing this. Need to see an example? Flip through your copy of "Babylon Mystery Religion." That book was almost entirely all taken from a book by someone else. And it's properly credited all throughout the book. Which does not in any way interfere with the contents of the book. The names of Stiles and Leonard, in particular, are completely absent from the White Book and the Orange Book, which is where they would have LEGALLY been required to have been cited (repeatedly, like Woodrow did with his book.) In fact, vpw made sure later editions of RTHST didn't even have the suggestion he learned from other people. Here's the closest vpw gets to even mentioning Stiles in RTHST: ""The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all I had been taught and start anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. It took me seven years to find a man of God schooled in the Holy Spirit, a man who knew the Scripture on the Holy Spirit, and could fit it together so that I dod not have to omit, deny or change any one passage. He made the Scripture fit like a hand fits into a glove, and when you can do that, you can be assured of having truth." That's what he said about the man whose book he retyped and called RTHST. Oh, YOUR copy of that book doesn't have this paragraph. That's because this is a quote from the SECOND EDITION. ONLY THE FIRST TWO EDITIONS SAY THAT. Here's how that same paragraph reads in ALL THE OTHER ADDITIONS: ""The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all that I had heard and thought out myself, and I started anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook. I did not want to omit, deny, or change any passage for, the Word of God being the will of God, the Scripture must fit like a hand in a glove."" Interesting how the other man just VANISHES from the picture, no? It's as if vpw later wants to take exclusive credit ("I started anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook") for something that was exclusively the result of Stiles-the UNNAMED Christian-working for God ("...He made the Scripture fit like a hand fits into a glove...") As for Leonard, what's Allan's idea of "credit where credit is due"? Well, first, vpw takes his entire class without attribution. When it goes into print (the Orange Book), vpw never mentions Leonard even once. And if you look hard enough through ALL the books twi ever released, eventually you will find Leonard's name buried on page 207 of TW:LiL. vpw took the ENTIRE contents of pfal class 1.0 from Leonard's class, UNALTERED. What did he say about Leonard? TW:LIL, pg-207. "He loved me, and I learned some stuff from him. He had tremendous believing. That's why I love the guy." "The summer of 1953, our whole ministry went up-Dotsie and Donnie and some of the others from Van Wert. We took his whole trip- really learned a lot about the other manifestations of the holy spirit. But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures. When I came home, I made up my mind that I was going to tie the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelation. So I did, and in October, I had the very first 'Power for Abundant Living' class. At that time, the Foundational Class and Advanced Class were together-the whole thing in two weeks. But the syllabus today is basically the same. The basic principles from the Word are the same. The class has filled out. But I knew the greatness of our age-the age of holy spirit and that every truth must fit in the framework of the manifestations. I just had to teach it to somebody." "I taught without a syllabus, but the class was the same. You could throw the syllabus away now and I could still teach it. It's a burning reality in my soul."" That same book has this to say about RTHST, which was Stiles' book with vpw's name on it... "TW:LIL, pg-209. "Somewhere in there I wrote the first holy spirit book. I can't remember exactly what year. I'd been working those 385 scriptures and they began to all fall into place." "We're having the sixth edition printed now of that book: Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. It's a great piece of research."" Everything except the 385 scriptures was all Stiles. The 385 Scriptures was Bullinger's book "the Giver and His Gifts", now known as "Word Studies in the Holy Spirit". Hm. BULLINGER's name is missing for that book, too. So, right after all those omissions of the authors of the work he stole, vpw says this, which some people insist actually qualifies as a disclaimer: (supposing you ever read the page) ""Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it together so that it fit-that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then I worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn't, I dropped." How would any OBJECTIVE reader view this? The cold, hard fact is that vpw went out of his way to claim he was the sole author of books and classes that were either direct clones or amalgams of the complete work of other Christians.

Confirming wasway was right, so wasway can serve up the next one....

Nice quote, if I'm remembering right. (And still nice if I'm not...) Mc Coy, with a super-enhanced mindboost, preparing to return Spock's grey matter to his noggin. What WAS that episode's name? "They Saved Spock's Brain?" I think it was simply "SPOCK'S BRAIN." (But the other title would have been funnier.) Am I at least right on the episode, if not the exact title?

Ok, I've got a time-frame.... Ok, we've got 3 shows I'm thinking of now. I'll start with "Babylon 5", with the Star Trek relationship being actor Walter Keonig ("Chekov").

A) People leave all kinds of groups and join all kinds of groups all the time. I've known Christians who became pagans after being Christians. I think you're confident this does not suggest paganism has more truth than Christianity. Likewise, if they'd left, say, Catholicism and joined twi, this would not suggest twi has more truth than Roman Catholicism. B) That's some imagination, not some impact The impact of Joyce Meyers Ministries includes, according to MinistryWatch, "Joyce Meyer has an ambitious international conference schedule including such places as Africa, Australia, Israel, Jamaica and the Philippines, ongoing medical and hunger relief, orphanages, and prison ministries in Latvia, India, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Belize and the Caribbean. This is accompanied by a wide variety of tapes, books and videos that the ministry sells to its many adherents via slick catalogues. The ministry is also regularly available on radio and television, with its televised broadcasts reaching a potential audience of 2.1 billion viewers worldwide. JMM, in response to questions about the concept of a “global congregation,” responds, “The traditional congregational church plays an absolutely essential role in the life of the believer. We have never desired to replace the local congregational church and fully encourage those we minister to, to find a local congregational-style church. If they cannot we will help them find one. Our focus is to equip all believers, strengthen them in their daily walk, and be the church for those who cannot attend, or do not have the option of attending a congregational-style church. This is why we are excited to be reaching into places like Iran with our Farsi language broadcast and into China, Cuba, and many other places where there is open hostility to the Christian faith.” JMM also runs a hospital in a very remote part of central India, which provides free health care to the surrounding communities. The surrounding communities total approximately 100,000 people, with the JMM hospital the only one within 60 miles. Additionally, the number of orphanages now run by JMM is 41, spread across Asia. Currently JMM reportedly cares for over 1,000 children in these orphanages. According to JMM, during 2004 JMM supplied humanitarian relief in 42 countries. JMM reports it has worked in India for over 10 years running orphanages, digging fresh water wells, building churches, providing feeding stations, working in leper colonies, providing medical care and reaching those who live on the streets. Consequently, it has an India office and an extensive network of volunteers throughout the region. JMM was able to make full use of this already established network when the tsunami hit last year, reporting that it provided immediate aid to over 30,000 people in the form of food, shelter, water, medical care and cleanup utilizing around 3,000 volunteers. Currently, JMM reports that it is completely rebuilding three villages, which translates into hundreds of houses, business, boats, rickshaws, bicycles, food, water and other needs to reestablish these devastated communities and allow the people to rebuild their lives. " twi matched this ever? Are you claiming that the Bible is the result of "men" working? If so, that's a logical response. Otherwise, turning the proof that Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, and others's books and classes were taken by vpw and claimed to be his own work, and claiming people were claiming vpw "stole the Bible" is just another example of "Straw Man (Fallacy Of Extension): attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent's position. For example, the claim that "evolution means a dog giving birth to a cat." Another example: "Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that." It's easy to refute someone when you get to change whatever they said, and make up their arguments...

But numbers are a direct indicator of that denistry thing you have a fascination with- the "impact". The more members, the more "impact" a group is said to have. Which, of course, means the Watchtower Society ALWAYS had much more "impact" than vpw and his group ever did. So have the Roman Catholics. That's your OWN point you just refuted. Thanks kindly. "Needling: simply attempting to make the other person angry, without trying to address the argument at hand. Sometimes this is a delaying tactic. Needling is also Ad Hominem if you insult your opponent. You may instead insult something the other person believes in ("Argumentum Ad YourMomium"), interrupt, clown to show disrespect, be noisy, fail to pass over the microphone, and numerous other tricks." He was trying to make a much simpler point, not about innovations based on previous inventions, but about a lying claim to have been the originator of an invention that exists solely through the hard work of someone else. (Or even something simpler, like, say, a special type of baseball pitch like a sinker, screwball or slider, or, say, basketball's 'hook shot'.) The documentation WAS what addressed the question directly, but sometimes an analogy can help when someone has difficulty seeing something directly. (Presuming, of course, they're TRYING to see it.)

Hm, the term "heavily involved" is in quotes despite being a term Allan made up and not from Belle's post at all. It's also a misrepresentation of what she said. She said she had a lot of experience with revivals. Much time, and much experience and much memory, does not necessarily equal much INVOLVEMENT. That suggests she was staffing them. Allan also makes the incredibly large leap that, supposedly, Belle was an active member of a Southern Baptist church and went immediately to twi. (That's what it would mean to "jump ship" from that church into twi, which is what he was saying.) With no proof of that, the idea that vpw "impacted" Belle (or her teeth, for that matter) is an unsupported assumption based on a guess of Allan's. Further, even IF all those leaps and assumptions were true (which would surprise me), saying that ONE person converted from something to something else says nothing about the accuracy or content of what they're converting FROM or what they're converting TO. Need proof? Every day, there are Christians who convert to Judaism or Islam, Muslims who convert to Christianity, Jews who convert to Christianity, Christians, Muslims AND Jews who convert to paganism, Christians who become atheist, and people who join groups like David Koresh's Branch Davidians and "Do"'s "Heaven's Gate" group. To say that ONE person joining twi means that there's an "impact" on mainstream Christianity is as accurate as saying that atheism is having "an impact" on mainstream Christianity, and paganism is having "an impact" on mainstream Christianity, and the Branch Davidians had "an impact" on mainstream Christianity. None of those is supported, and none is a guarantee ANY of them is correct or has something of SUBSTANCE to offer. (If they do, it's not because of this weak 'argument'.)

"Ad Hominem attacks." "One of the most common non-rational appeals is an argumentum ad hominem--or, as the Latin phrase suggests, an "argument against the person" (and not against the ideas he or she is presenting). Our decisions should be based on a rational evaluation of the arguments with which we are presented, not on an emotional reaction to the person or persons making that argument. But because we often react more strongly to personalities than to the sometimes abstract and complex arguments they are making, ad hominem appeals are often very effective with someone who is not thinking critically." "Ad hominem fallacies take a number of different forms, though all share the fact that they attempt to re-focus attention, away from the argument made and onto the person making it. And remember--it doesn't really matter whether the terms of the attack are true or false. What matters is whether the argument is acceptable, not the person arguing it. After all, even if Adolf Hitler says so, 2 + 2 still equals 4." Whenever we see these around here, it's usually a reliable indicator that someone was unable to refute some glaring truth, and was desperate to draw attention from it. In this case, it was the great details of how vpw "photocopied" Leonard's class and claimed it was entirely his own, AND lied to Leonard, and vpw "photocopied" Stiles' book and claimed it was entirely his own, While still claiming that God taught him and not man, and it was truths unknown for 2000 years. (Despite them being both KNOWN and available to the PUBLIC at the time.

Welcome back, HCW. Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. Few of us say EVERYTHING was wrong. (There's always a "minority opinion" for every position...) I'd agree what vpw did, and what he taught his inner circle to do, are things I (and most Americans) would classify as immoral, wrong, and illegal. Many would also call that "evil." That's independent of the fact that there were some good things mixed AMONGST them. Most of us would say, for example, "Go to pulpit, and preach Acts 2, good thing. Leave pulpit and drug young female and rape her, bad thing." Neither precisely negates the other as an action, but an inconsistent standard means the "leader" is not walking with God. One cannot serve God part-time and mammon part-time. (Jesus is about as authoritative a figure as one can quote on such a subject.) Many people had most of their interactions with Heefn3r, D00p, and Christians like them. Those were good times, and godly ones, for the most part. (Or at least not ungodly at the worst of times.) Actually, a number of people who dealt face-to-face with vpw reported the same types ofdealings later complained about if lcm did them. I'm thankful to God that what vpw did or did not do was not part of your day-to-day. I'm confident that was a blessing from God to you. You were free to do your utmost for Him, which you did. Not everyone who was on-grounds, however, can make such claims. (Especially the young women.) It seems to me that vpw was "good" to some people- he left you alone mostly and could seem even affectionate at times- and "evil" to some people- especially young, impressionable women. For the most part, those who HAD to deal with him the most tend to have the harshest memories of him. (Like Mrs W admitting he was "a mean man". Like HA AND CG supposedly insulating others from outbursts and rampages on his part.) Granted, while you worked your heart out in one building, what vpw did some of the time in ANOTHER building to a few women wasn't affecting your day. True, he didn't ruin MOST of the lives of the followers, even the women. Also true, you probably had no way of knowing, nor even a hint to SUSPECT anything. Did that make it dismissable, or acceptable? Did that have no effect on the spiritual environment on grounds? Even the "victimless" crimes, where vpw killed himself slowly with alcohol and tobacco, did those have no effect on the spiritual climate?

Give us one more shot, if you can add something a bit more obvious. Any chance it's "Space:Above and Beyond"? I know they called those aliens "chigs" normally, but they WERE bugs.