WordWolf

The last time we discussed it was here... http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...wtopic=7353&hl=

And then the NEXT time the discussion comes up, he's surprised all over again that anyone's claimed there were problems... If he was on medication, this would be understandable, and compassion on our part would be called-for. This would mean he was biologically UNABLE to retain the information in his memory due to biochemical imbalance, or biological deficiency. Since this is not the case, I just take it at face value. No point in making much of a fuss over it, hoping to fix it. See, that's where you differ. As new information came in, you changed your mind. Most of the new posters do that within months of their arrivals.

It's a fourth-degree misdemeanor. I posted the citation from Ohio's laws. And they lost in court over that. I posted the verdict's link. I can answer this one before he even logs back in. If they reported it, it was "severe", thus, worthy to be reported. If they did not report it, it was not "severe", thus, unworthy of being reported. He will NOT get into specifics on them, because then he might get in the position of saying they should have reported a rapist, molestor, murderer,etc, rather than focusing on covering their OWN tracks. So, you can save the energy. OM will NEVER change positions on that, and you'll just waste time and energy trying to reason it with him.

"The Mask of Zorro". I was thinking of using that EXACT same quote. :D

I'll simplify this discussion slightly. "I am Agedsperson! When 80% of the ministry left in 1989, I stayed. I stayed thru the slow death spiral of the early 1990s, and left when the 2nd half of the 1990s introduced even WORSE policies. I never SAW any wrongdoing, and I never DID any wrongdoing! Therefore, everything I did was correct. Those whose actions were different, by definition, did NOT do the correct thing. Since I left in the late 1990s, that was the correct time to leave. Those who left later stayed too late, those who left before stayed too early. Those who stayed when I left were blind, those who left sooner were contentious. I stayed in 1989, therefore anyone who left in 1989 was wrong to do so. Period." ======== Clear enough for almost everyone? All right- now let's have coffee and cake in the music room!

'oldiesman'= ======== WOW, I hadn't read this thread up until now, and it's very interesting. Don't know if I ever posted this, but I was one of the runners who ran one of the 10 mile legs, from Rome City to Athens, carrying the torch. I think I also was the only non-corps person running. As I recall, this effort was coordinated by Bob Moynihan and all who ran received a bronze medallion. I had been training for this event for 6 months prior to make sure I'd be able to run 10 miles straight without stopping. The day before the start at Rome City, I develop this sharp pain in one of my legs. I start limping around and start getting very worried that I might not be able to run. While limping by the reception desk, a gal at the reception desk saw me limping, and I told her what was wrong. She immediately layed hands and prayed for me. The pain was gone. Next day, I ran the 10 miles with no problems. Day after that, my body ached all over, except that one part of my leg that was healed the day before! True story. Anyway, back to Craig, yeah he had to have the spotlight. Those of us who did the marathon ran 10 miles each, but all of a sudden when the torch is coming around the corner guess who's carrying it? Craig. Did he run 10 miles? No. Apparently Craig grabbed the torch a few yards back, and started running carrying the torch to the front with some others behind him. So here we are, each one running 10 miles busting our butts while we watch Craig grabbing the freakin torch running his few yards and getting all the attention like he's been running for miles. :lol: ========== You personally saw this, and you STILL say lcm wasn't all about himself?

'oldiesman'= "Of course it depends on the severity of the crime" [This has already been adequately addressed by other posters.] "but it may also be that they don't want to rat on a brother/sister in Christ if they don't have to." [And I don't want to pay payroll tax, but it's the law and I do it.] [ All states have similar legislation. Hq is in Ohio and is under the Federal and State laws governing Ohio. Ohio Revised Code section 2921.22 states: " (A) No person, knowing that a felony has been or is being committed, shall knowingly fail to report such information to law enforcement authorities. (B) Whoever violates division (A) of (B) of this section is guilty of 'failure to report a crime'. Violation of division (A) of this section is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree." ] "But kicking them out immediately is strong punishment, and better than keeping them in, wouldn't you say?" [Trick question. The proper response upon a religious organization's discovery that a member or employee has committed a crime, is to report that individual to the local legal authorities. Period. Kicking the person out is independent of the MORAL responsibility to protect the community, and the LEGAL responsibility to report a criminal. Here's an example of how Ohio law views this sort of thing... http://www.cleveland.com/abuse/index.ssf?/...1185150122.html This legal response -requiring reporting of a crime- predates the founding of the United States and has its roots in "raising a hue and cry" back in the Dark Ages of Europe. ]

So how IS Jeff doing these days?

Here's a quote I think relates in a way. Martin Niemoeller said: "First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a communist. Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me- and there was no one left to speak out for me."

lcm seems to have DISAGREED with you on this one, Oldiesman. You SUPPOSED that's what he was thinking. "Out There" PHONED him and spoke to him PERSONALLY on this. ====== "Out There": "When I received the Loyalty letter in the mail I immediately called LCM and by some miracle after leaving a message he actually called me back. When I asked if this letter was a call to blindly follow him he said I had been doing this all along. I then told him thats what he thinks he could 'kiss my foot'. I think I was dropped from the rolls of the Way Corps that next morning." ===== Therefore, lcm was WELL AWARE he was calling for blind, unquestioning loyalty to HIM, and thought that blind, unquestioning loyalty was his DUE.

Clarifying our terms to avoid confusion is a necessary step if we are to increase in understanding. Therefore, making sure we mean EXACTLY the same thing with our terms is necessary. It aids understanding and retards "weasel-wording", where someone keeps changing the meaning in an attempt to dominate the discussion. ====== BTW, I didn't do my own research there-that was quoted from further up the page, from a poster who DID do his own research. ==== A healthy skepticism to any man's position is good. It means we then look for ourselves and see if he's right or not. This is especially true if previous examinations have shown him to have a low batting average on his signature doctrines. Therefore, a calm, reasoned approach is superior to an "I love him" approach, just as it's superior to an "I hate him" approach. ===== Finally, Mark quoted his source for his "research", WTH did not, but insisted we do our own. What's your source, WTH? Did YOU do your own?

'oldiesman': I beg to differ. I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed. [No, you're operating with PARTIAL information, and that out of choice. ] But when I look at those events, they were godly. Folks left who believed Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, or at least not "standing on the word", which got the folks who were unhappy and malcontented, out. [Partially true. This did not mean those who stayed were clueless about the ERROR practiced at hq. They just had LESS evidence, or had more reason to stay-like the famous "they thought they could fix things from within." ] There was, among other things, lots of peace in the fellowships that remained. No more arguing about Craig and the BOT being off the wall. [ The fellowships that remained varied widely. Those in NYC were FINE for the most part because NYC twi'ers as individuals were stubborn individuals who were slow to bend their neck or scratch gravel for ANYBODY. That puts them as high on the list to escape when someone demands BLIND loy-alty. Further, the twiglets took their cues from the twig coordinators. The twig coordinators took their cues from the branch coordinators. The branch coordinators took their cues from the territory coordinators. The territory coordinators took their cues from the Limb coordinator. The Limb coordinator of NY state at that time was VF. VF was on some people's short-list for vpw's successor. He was better suited to running things nationally than lcm, and had experience running twi stuff. Therefore, he was more than capable of keeping the state intact, which he did. Locals didn't hear there WERE problems because we were insulated from it- because higher-ups didn't pass that along. Nobody below Territory Coordinator knew. So, branch coordinators smiled and said everything was fine-so the twig coordinators did the same, which is why you had no idea there were problems 1985-1989. However, there WAS information there-to which you lacked access. Some had access. When I heard there were problems, I naively thought they could be fixed, and VF might go work things out and help restore balance to lcm. I even said so. The very next piece of news from lcm was "I'm firing VF and every other staff member in NY state for being evil." So, every staff member in NY state seceeded-since they were already kicked out- but they remained in contact with each other-which makes sense unless you're an idiot. ] Twigs were loving full of peace unity, and no legalism. [ Because they were maintained at the state, city, and neighborhood levels, there was some love and peace LOCALLY. This being twi, there was LESS legalism, but there was still legalism.] PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving. [ Locally, things moved along because locally we knew what we were doing. Locally, that's always been the case. ] There was still a WOW program where the word was moving. [ I question the success of the wow program, for several reasons. At best, it was a mixed bag. Furthermore, you know NOTHING about what it was like on the field in 1989. lcm forced the issue with 1/4 of the wows. lcm kicked people off the field all over the place in 1989. So wows were STRANDED in the field as a direct result of lcm stripping them of leadership and part of their "families." In several cases, the wows notified hq that they were now stuck as a result-for rent and so on, which they were paying. HQ said-in one case I'm aware of-and I expect this was true for many I am NOT aware of-that they would help for THIS month but they were smoked for next month. WHEN THE PROMISED HELP FROM TWI DID NOT ARRIVE- which was the result of needs generated by twi kicking wows off the field- the wows were then forced to turn to rank-and-file believers to provide the assistance twi PROMISED to provide and was morally responsible TO provide. Since one believer who was contacted said "Well, I haven't sent in my tithe for this month yet, so I can send it to you", the wows I'm aware of were not EVICTED, which would have been the result of lcm's decision and twi's failure to live up to a direct promise. Ever see a wow get his pin and REFUSE TO SHAKE lcm's hand? Someone got a snapshot.... That was lcm's "contribution" to the wow field.] Some folks were even returning, who had left in 1989. I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it. [Actually, the stage was already being set. Forget the wow program, the PFAL class-lcm was preparing to throw them out and replace them with something inferior because it had his name on it. And if a handful was returning, at least that many were STILL LEAVING. Of course, with so few NYC'ers LEFT, it's hard to see ANY people arriving as anything less than a huge jump. ] I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism. [ Not local to you, no. Didn't you find it odd when lcm sent a letter saying "I'm firing VF and Li*** Ma***, your local overseer, because he's corrupt?" You'd met LM, correct? Didn't you know he was the real deal? ] I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving. [ Oh, wait- you're one of the guys who stayed and were promoted to "top local guy" after everyone with a lick of training left. That explains a lot.... If I'd stayed, you might have been taking orders from me within a few years.... But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth. [ Wrong. When lcm fired all the staff across NY state, the Father Son and Holy Ghost caught the last train to the coast. 4 out of every 5 Joe Believers walked. All the Territory and Branch coordinators walked. Almost all the Advanced class grads walked. ALL the corps grads walked. That was statewide-citywide, the numbers were even higher in NYC. The Bronx was a Territory before lcm drew his line in the sand- it became a SMALL twig AFTER the line. Manhattan-the same. I'm not aware of anyone I knew in BQSI who stayed, which to me is a sign that the majority of the other 3 boroughs walked as well. I know it's true NORTH of NYC, in Westchester County and Yonkers as well. ===== I do know a handful of people DID stay, for reasons which were there own. (I didn't speak to any of them face-to-face.) I AM aware that those whom I knew who stayed, they were among the "bottom-feeders" in skill and ability. As I said once before, if I had stayed, I would have been one of NYC's heavier hitters even then. That's not saying I was that good-that's saying those who remained were not up to scratch. All the quality people left, and a handful of the least-talented stayed. Doesn't say much for the discernment of the remainders. You've previously posted that there were some quality heavy-hitters who remained in NYC after the 1989 split. Once again, I call "shenanagans" on that. After 1989, the skill-levels would have to be recalibrated to measure at lower levels to consider stragglers as heavy-hitters. All the people lcm himself used to cite as important had left- wows, corps, Advanced class grads. After 1989, of course, he stopped saying this, since they weren't around.]

Pat Morita The Next Karate Kid Hilary Swank

Nuts. Belle beat me to it. Deleting my requote...

"Yeah, I have. However this is based upon yet another one of VPWs blunders with Greek. VPW taught that "saved" was translated from the Greek "sozo". Then he taught that sozo came from the Greek root word "zoe" meaning life in its fullest. He then relates that to "wholeness" . Then he fits that in with his formed, made & created / body, soul, and spirit theory. The final result being, saved means receiving the holy spirit and thus becoming body, soul and spirit once more ( the spirit being missing previously). So then according to VPW a person is saved/made whole when he/she receives the spirit. The problem with this is that sozo - (saved) DOES NOT come from the Greek "zoe" as VPW errantly taught. Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe". VPW foisted the Greek and then forced a new meaning on sozo so that his definition of salvation would fit neatly in with body, soul, spirit. He also misunderstood why the King James translated sozo "made/make whole"in regards to physical healing. Salvation is from the Greek "soter" , which has a common root with sozo (saved). However neither of these Greek words is related to "zoe" or to wholeness. Wierwille was dead wrong in his definition of saved/salvation." ========= See, this is the type of problem that can crop up when you get your degree in "HOMILETICS" and then act as if you got it in Koine Greek or Bible languages or the like.

Martin Niemoeller: " First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a communist. Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me- and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Ok, it seems we've reached the end of the quotes for this book. Having read thru all this, and having discussed it, I'd like some general thoughts, possibly from those who haven't been posting every day (for variety). Do any old-timers from the 70s have any general conclusions on this subject-the book or its contents? What do the exits from the 90s and 00s have to say about all this?

Not only have we discussed this before, but I posted the OTHER letter once in its entirety. As to the previous discussions, I clicked one up to the top. As to the OTHER letter, I can't find it. The OTHER letter was the one where lcm sent it to EVERYONE-not just the staff- and said they were firing everyone. As it turned out, he made specific allegations against the people he was firing-that they didn't love Christ, that they worked for greed- and yet people in different states all got the SAME letter where only the NAMES were changed. ALL the people had EXACTLY the same issues? No, lcm felt like making a blanket accusation, so he did. I'm confident he was personally unfamiliar with most of the people he was accusing. I'll have to dig out the old letter and repost it.

Clicking this thread to the top, since it's being discussed...

Out There said

Well, this is old stuff. However, I can save you the trouble of sitting thru their series. :D Matthew 1:1-16 covers part of the Christ-line. It names only a few women, who are the subject of "this" study. Matthew 1:3 mentions Tamar Matthew 1:5 mentions Rahab Matthew 1:5 mentions Ruth Matthew 1:16 mentions Mary So, this is a study in 4 parts-one for each woman.

"Gitarzan: the Motion Picture".

It's tough with fewer players. I'm thinking Sharon, Belle or Steve! might have gotten it off the first post. The answer was "Solid Rock" by Dire Straits. Their most recognizable commercial hit was "Money for Nothing" and their best-known song among rock rans is probably "Sultans of Swing", not "Solid Rock." ========== Ok, here's one more the speed of the current players. "I'm a-walkin' in the rain, Tears are fallin' and I feel the pain, Wishin' you were here by me, To end this misery"

Friday, November 22, 1963 =========== Ssshh. I can hear you- no need to yell. I think you missed my point. There were at least as many things NOT in common as IN common. The lists are in the minds of the readers.