WordWolf

I never got THAT one. POSSESSED, yes, HERETIC, yes, UNSAVED, yes, IDOLATOR, yes, but not 'antichrist'. Some people seem to derive comfort by labelling others "wrong"."Wrong", you see, is often largely a matter of "different than me". Thus, those who left twi before or after me were "wrong". George Carlin pointed out that all drivers driving slower than you are "idiots", and all drivers driving faster than you are "maniacs". All Christians who have a different belief than you are "wrong" and face any of a number of sanctions or penalties. Thought you'd like to know, the original saying is "He who is forced to agree against his will is of the same opinion still."

I call that one a "3", or a "4" if you were in the late 90s-early 00s. They could communicate with Americans, but their vocabulary WAS largely limited by the terms they were REQUIRED to use in conversations. This limited the subjects they could talk about, but it wasn't as far as, say, a Spanish-speaker and an English speaker communicating. In rare exceptions, it was more like Spanish vs Italian, where you can kinda-sorta communicate.

They promised the assignments were by revelation. Thus, the assignments were NEVER to be questioned, just accepted. In your mind, it would have been fine for a wow to have questioned openly whether or not his "leader" was competent, but in the world we lived in, this would have produced a lecture, censure and kicking the questioner off the wow field, if they kept asking questions. twi CLAIMED to operate in a way that questions were allowed. However, reality miserably failed to match up to promises there (surprise surprise!) ====== IF the bot was operating HONESTLY, they either would never have made such outrageous claims- but they did ANYWAY to stifle dissent, or they really SHOULD have done them all by revelation- which would have weeded ALL the bad volunteers out. Since there was virtually no "quality control" we know this didn't happen. Want to join? Got your money? Ok, here's your red armband. Make sure to attend your preliminary meetings. ===== The claims they made were not of a financial organization like a bank. They chose to make lofty claims, and demanded to be believed. They thus chose a high level of responsibility and performance-which they never had any ability to deliver, and kept THAT information a SECRET. In other words, if they could not guarantee safety on a large-scale program, they had no business RUNNING IT. Even the atheists know that! Either run it at the level you can do it right, or don't run it.

'Thomas Loy Bumgarner': "Harve was made area/limb leader for Ohio and proably for his callous letter to John Paul about his mother and her condition which caused a lot of furror publicly." ==== Which, I'm certain, he was ORDERED to write, and was later blamed for writing. That's just another day in the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word..... "A new day is dawning on fewer than expected, business as usual."

Oh, and one of the more striking pieces of "cognitive dissonance": "the CFS class says a guy isn't supposed to 'help himself' to a woman." (Explanation of I Corinthians 7:1.) "Husbands and wives should look to each other for 'satisfaction' in that sense." (Explanation of I Corinthians 7:2.) vs. "If you're spiritual enough, you can have sex with someone other than your spouse and just keep that information 'lockbox'."

Let's compare this with the SAME incident seen from a different set of eyes.How was this described in TWLIL? "There were two men in Van Wert." "Now, they got together every morning at 5am and believed together for an hour. Every morning. I don't know what they called it. But they would set their minds on an agreed project. They never spoke; just got together every morning and both concentrated on whatever it was, until it came to pass." "They just got together and put their minds on it every single morning for a couple of weeks, and lo and behold, one day suddenly some guy who wanted to sell his distillerry just called them up, and asked if they wanted to buy it. They'd never heard of the guy with the distillerym before. He found them. Yep, they made millions, gambled, won. One man set up a foundation for children from broken homes, also built the YMCA, YWCA and a hospital. It was something." "I used to watch how they operated. I was a minister there in Van Wert....here were the two meanest guys you could ever want to meet. Nobody liked them because they were so successful and no one else could hold a candle to them." As outlined in the other thread, my conclusion was that these men in his congregation in Van Wert NEVER EXISTED. They had no names-but he studied them for weeks and weeks. He supposedly built part of his understanding of the "LAW" of believing on them. They gave generously to their community-and the community HATED them, including the Christians. They were incredibly mean, but gave generously. He just happened to know these guys got together 5am and sat in silence in a room. (Did he have a camera in the room?) These imaginary folk are just there to exist as examples. vpw's actual degree was in HOMILETICS, so he was trained in INVENTING a story when a real one wasn't handy. The result? lcm thinks he told the truth, and goes off to memorize chapter 1 of the Blue Book. He's said in other places that he spent a month reading that chapter EVERY DAY. That's one result vpw was aiming for-unquestioning acceptance of his doctrine, and the nonexistent "LAW". UH was the exception. As long-timers have said, UH stopped vpw from proceeding with his most stupid ideas-saying they wouldn't work. UH could argue with him in public. Anyone ELSE tries that, and..... Obviously, this is how "spiritual" men speak. (I have to retype to bypass the censor-"spiritual" guys say obscenities in meetings. How spiritual vpw was. Apparently, he was unable to communicate the same concept without an expletive. "Literals according to usage." This means "rewriting the verse so it says what you want it to." Groups of people are on staff, and NOBODY has a lick of medical training-no medical doctor, no nurse, no paramedic. This can be expected with the program, but some contingency should have already have been in effect in case of this sort of thing, or ANY medical emergency. Sure would be nice to know what happened beyond she "had gone off her rocker". lcm had a bachelor's in PSYCHOLOGY, yet, somehow, he could express this incident in no more specific terms? lcm was an athlete and he NEEDED TO LEARN THIS? He wasn't applying what he already knew? A man unprepared to run the wow program is now put in charge of the corps. What DID he know? He knew athletics. That's why the 2 pics of him in TWLIL show him in a group sitting to talk Scripture, and LEADING THEM ON A RUN. He could only teach to the limit of his understanding. Bill Cosby explained his own limitations with raising children-they were similar to lcm's skills with the way corps. " My wife graduated with a degree in Child Psychology with a B+ average, which means that if you ask her a question about a child's behaviour, she will give you at least an "85" answer. I graduated Tempe University with a Physical Education major with a Child Psychology minor, which means that if you ask me a question about a child's behaviour, I will tell you to tell the child to 'take a lap'." And doesnt this encapsulize his management strengths over the corps nicely?

Clicking this up to make it easier to compare the 2 Wonderland threads.

Nice double-standard. He taught the corps they needed to roll up their sleeves and workfor hours "as part of their training to be leaders." Yet this same man said the top leader should never roll up his sleeves and work at all. The phrase "athlete of the spirit" is straight from the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, which lcm was connecter with in college. vpw ripped it off of them, and boy, did it come back to haunt him..... When it was to his advantage, hq was "home" for the youngsters-but not ALL THE TIME,and not ALL THE GROUNDS, especially as time passed. vpw makes a blanket statement about "home", and lcm attributes great meaning to it- which, I think, was the reason vpw SAID IT. vpw usually made such comments to EVERYONE at the opening of ROA events. (Check the opening tape of ANY ROA.) Simple management is SOOOO spiritual. That vpw has a special connection to Gawd... I Timothy 3 speaks of Christian leaders, and the qualities they should have. Let's skip the "should not love alcoholic beverages" in 3:3, since we're talking lcm. I Timothy 3:6 says he must be "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." vpw took a newbie straight out of college, a NOVICE, and put him IN CHARGE of a program. Not "assisting the leader and learning what he does", he puts him IN CHARGE. According to I Timothy, this is dangerous for the Christians. This is what we call a newbie mistake. Anyone with sufficient experience as a LEADER, or if he had experience with THAT program, would easily have known better. lcm focused on MONEY rather than what the WOWs NEEDED. We know he didn't get that in college- college students focus on how to get food! Where did he learn to concentrate on MONEY? WHOM did he learn that from? (Hint: "You can stay as long as your money holds!") This was not LCM's fault-it was VPW's fault. He put an OBVIOUSLY UNDERQUALIFIED man in a leadership position, then left him alone to figure things out all on his own. At the VERY least, he should have really been running it, making all the decisions, explaining the whys, and having lcm implement vpw's decisions.

As has been said before, lcm was originally a jock, a college student who had some religious convictions. His initial exposure was Donny Fugit teaching. In hindsight, he concluded this was a "GREAT man." At the time, he was probably convinced he was pretty good. vpw was VERY good at manipulating his image. lcm was young and wanted answers. He was VERY typical of the recruits of the time. Looking back, this was his first personal interaction with vpw. With the cold light of day, vpw sounds incredibly shallow and secular. This young man comes up to learn the Bible-vpw blows him off for dessert. He didn't even invite him along-he had to "GO" and eat his cake. Was lcm convinced THEN that big guys always know everything, or was this a by-product of remembering things later? vpw asked questions when it made sense to. That does not require any special spiritual connection. That's AVERAGE leadership. vpw and ha put the squeeze on the new student. With the right training, lcm might actually have been something-with real Christian training and the REAL hard lessons of humility and substance. Instead, he was subverted into the corps. The bottom line? Is it 'if you do your best for God always, you can stay.' No, it's 'if you have money, you can stay.' The priorities are clear, here.

Cognitive dissonance: that's when you're required to hold internal contradictions in your brain. "You believe as much as you want to live!" "The mog believes more than any human who shakes the earth!" "The mog died very young." "wows are sent to locations determined by divine revelation!" "many sites were stupid choices determined by a coin-flip." "corps are top leaders by the world's standards!" "Anyone with the money is allowed in the corps and put in leadership positions." "we will teach you how to prosper!" "you will survive off mac & cheese, wear hand-me-downs, and drive a beater." "Leadership are most holy people!" "Leadership use filthy language freely in large groups, and rape the followers." "This is a books on keys, not Genesis to Revelation." "This book replaces Genesis to Revelation!" Those are contradictory. Holding both in your mind produces a jarring note. That's "cognitive dissonance".

And, when you DO let him surf, use a kid-specific browser.

That's correct (and correct.) If you saw the movie "La Bamba", Ritchie Valens mentions covering it in passing. *outside local bar* "I thought I'd start with 'Bony Maronie'." "'Bony Maronie'? To THESE sh*-stompers????" Yours, George.

"She's as skinny as a stick of macaroni"

"Drivin' in to Darlington County, My eyes seen the comin' of the glory of the Lord. Drivin' in to Darlington City Seen Wayne handcuffed to the bumper of a State Trooper's Ford." "Darlington County" is off Bruce Springsteen's famous "Born to Run" album. Oddly, you picked one of the lines I remember most easily from the song. (That and the preceding and following lines.)

June 6th 1984- 40 years since D-Day, Normandy Beach ================= "Verville, France is in Omaha Beach in Normandy, France." "Devil spirits worked on both sides during the war. Churchill and Roosevelt sold out to Stalin." " 'Tesla' from Yugoslavia. Original inventor of radios (not Marconi), also did most of the original work on computers and robots, and the inventor of AC current. He had incredible idiosyncracies and extreme behaviour. " "Dr complimented LCM-'What you are doing with the spirit realm is documenting it right out of the Word!' " "Dr made a statement that he didn't believe that there was a man alive in the Way Ministry that was capable of handling the Book of Revelation. 'Prophecy doesn't come clear until the time of its unveiling.' " "Dr told LCM that he believed that LCM had the finest knowledge of the spirit realm of anyone on the face of the Earth." "Dr also said of LCM that one of the points that always stuck out in his mind regarding LCM was that LCM never forgot who taught him the Word." "Dr said of Donna, 'You married yourself a hell of a woman! Her heart perception with people is second to none.'" "We have perhaps more knowledge of the spirit field than even the Apostle Paul had. We have the full benefits of the Epistles, etc." Corps fellowship- 3000 present. Class taught by LCM. ========== "Dr used to say that the worst thing you can do to him after he teaches is come up to him and ask a Bible question." "You don't have great perception if you're caustic and critical and always looking for errors. You have got to act with love." Location-Campfire (Way Woods) ============ "Incident of Way Corps going home after Corps Week but prior to the ROA. Dr heard about it and reproved everyone in the corps household for the problem, for not helping to put it on. He reminded everyone of the commitments that they had made regarding a lifetime of Christian service. Every corps person needs to plan ahead one year or more so that they can be a part of these events. They need to be able to be a part of ROA and corps fellowship." Dr planned Live class at Gunnison. =============== "Dr had many ideas for Gunnison. A Gondola to the top of the mountain, a riverside restaurant, private homes, a recreation area. Utilize what you have!" "LCM- 'If my life can have a fraction of the meaning to someone else, as his was to mine, it will have been worth it." ================ (the end) ======== I think that's the one thing lcm can rely on. His life's been a fraction of what vpw's life was to people.

No idea at all. I'm just quoting highlights off of "VP and Me" (well, the digest of it with quotes) as seen in the link at the top of this thread. Maybe you can make a new thread, and ask for one of those who was active then to spill about the judge.

Accomodations for corps were equivalent to TINY dorms. You PAID to be in the corps. You performed manual labour in the corps. Food was, apparently, nutritious, but the menu was sparse. Nutritious, but uninspiring food. Nothing you would CHOOSE to eat if you had options. Very few books were actually issued to the corps. So, room and board were bottom-of-the-line, and economies of scale made them cheaper. I believe that if ALL they got was the $300, they DID turn a profit. Plus, there were "spiritual partners" and other sources of income. The corps didn't need to turn a profit. Of course, when it was organized to have LOTS of members, it was organized to do exactly that, and sacrificed QUALITY for QUANTITY. Real training, or minimal training and a profit? I would have trained FEW but with the top training that could be done. They preferred to up the numbers as much as possible, and ANY teacher could tell you that the larger the class size, the less attention each student gets-so MORE students means LESSER teaching.

After the last big meeting that they scoured the area for in an attempt to look like they had more members, my personal guesstimate is that twi has currently approximately 2000 adults, but the ranks have been whittled down to the most extreme kool-aid drinkers, the people that make even the GSC blue-pills ("things were perfect once and could be again!") wince and say "you're out of touch!" === There's really no point for twi to even TRY to reach out. They have no SUBSTANCE to offer people. Little old "christen-dumb" has outpaced them and offers things that outpaced twi at its APEX. twi will never offer enough to equal the other Christians now, let alone distinguish themselves. The only unique things they have to offer is micro-management, a mandatory tithe, and a straitjacket for your personality. Who would join for that?

1981-1982. ========= "Emotions have never ruled Dr's logic. His emotions have supported it." "Incident of a press conference. Reporters show up improperly dressed for the event. Dr reproves them for being so casual and disrespectful to him. As a head of a large corporation, he should be treated more respectfully." 1981-1982. (again) === "Dr and Mrs W moved into the chalet for two weeks to work out the bugs and tenderize the place. LCM was at the Indiana Campus when he heard that he would be living there. Dr decided that LCM and Donna should not have to have another couple live with them. They needed their privacy, a place to relax." "Dr was able to argue with people without holding grudges." "Dr always taught at the point of violation. The [athletic] conference got side-tracked into the more practical stuff like how to throw a ball. Dr reproved LCM and told him to get it back to the Word. You can learn that stuff anywhere. Here we teach the Word!" "Honesty, heart, frankness, truth were all attributes of Dr Wierwilles." "A leader has to be able to carry the heart of the ministry. A leader gives people his life." "LCM never forgot who taught him the Word. It's that humbleness that helps keep a man's equilibrium." "It's wonderful what happens to people when you threaten to take their money away." "We teach the Word for free because we love to." Always be a student if you are going to be a real leader." "Teaching has to be positive. Define the problem if needed, BUT get to the solution." 1982. ==== "Dr said that he had extended himself in Living Victoriously more than he had ever done. 'A man could work 5-6 hours of solid teaching out of every hour of them.' " Dedication of the Gunnison Triplex. ================== "Dr had a special respect for his family and for his background. The Wierwille family must stand if the Word is to live." Location-OSC/Stage area. ========= "There's more to making a decision than the positive side. You have to think all the way through. Is anyone going to be affected deleteriously by this?" "Basic standard time was set up for SNS teachings. LCM had taught for 2 hours straight one night and Dr went backstage to reprove him-too long for people to sit through. Too long for a SNS tape. New standard was everyone had 45 minutes, LCM had one hour." "Believe that the adversary can't snoop into top level meetings. Otherwise how could any meeting take place, any planning?" "Uncle Harry Day was changed to 'Burn the Chaff' day. Dr was concerned that, over the years, as more of the ministry's leadership, founders, trustees and so on died, the tendency would be to recognize them with a special day like Uncle Harry Day. Within a generation, you would end up with nothing more than a mirror image of the RC days for saints, etc. No heart, just bondage and religious observation of the day." "Incident of the Federal judge that took the class. Dr recommended that he be put on mainstage at the ROA to speak to the audience. Dr didn't think that he deserved to be put in stage as he had little or no humility. But Dr felt that it would be a major feather in the cap to have a man of such stature in our ministry. Dr was always thinking of the furtherance of the ministry and consequently the Word." "Dr was very vulnerable regarding his eye and the fact that he might have to be operated on. He never thought that he'd ever have surgery in his whole life." "' I've never had a headache in my whole life, never taken an aspirin in my life and now all this happens to me.' " "What went through Dr's mind was the standard in the Old Testament that a priest who was maimed or deformed could no longer offer sacrifice to God." Sound Out '84. ========= "Tony Collins-New England Patriots- WOW pin. LCM was unsure as to whether he should go to New Englandnin advance of the ROA to give him a WOW pin. All the local leadership were against it. They thought that it was being a "RESPECTER OF PERSONS". After talking it over with Dr, he decided to do it as it would further the ministry." "Don't be ashamed to take advantage of the knowledge of an expert." "Think it through the best that you can, have all the facts and variables ready, if you're going to deal with a leader. If asked, always tell a leader what you think. Don't fabricate an answer to look good or to keep him happy. If you don't know, Say So! If you DO know, Say So!" "Wherever you have a series of leaders that pass the buck up the Way Tree, the Word won't move!" "So much in leadership is being logical. Just get honest and think!" "Dr spent time in Europe and was the most blessed he'd ever been in Europe, Barb and Chris Geer." "Dr Bullinger's niece was met." "Everyone had forgotten Bullinger by now. Will people forget Dr Wierwille?" Next-June 6, 1984, 40 years since D-Day/Normandy. ==================

Correct, Pirate. Which, of course, raises the question "Why did I hear this song played?" Must have been a fluke at the radio station. Go, Pirate!

Wild guess: "Men in Black"?

This one IS tougher, and less recent than the last. But I, personally, HAVE heard it on the radio, which means I feel it's not an impossible shot.

Rascal: "Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything." oldiesman: "If he thought that, he was wrong." We had 15 pages on the old thread, and we're up to 9 pages so far on this thread, and Oldiesman has yet to even acknowledge that those who knew better than him (or that there were people who DID know better) were RIGHT in leaving. So, rascal, the evidence supports your comment that even if Oldiesman had been presented with DNA evidence, he's keeping to his current position. And as you said before, it's understandable if people back then didn't know enough to understand that leaving was the only sensible option. It's foolishness for them to STILL say it was the only sensible option. And finally, I say, anyone who was at ROA '89 and STILL stayed after 5 days of the Dog and Pony Show was either blind or a fool. A LOT of people left IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING ROA '89.

You're reading retention needs work. I listened to lcm HIMSELF. I listened to Mrs lcm HERSELF. I had conversations with many, many people, representatives of twi at various levels across the week. I had an extensive dialogue with one of the current BOD members- which has been mentioned several times. I was told an outrageous lie to my face, and when I asked if they minded if I looked into their claim, the liar threatened me with physical violence, and ATTEMPTED to intimidate me with his height and so on. He had been working and living at hq the past year, and before that, he didn't go around threatening violence. Curious how he changed over the year. I had eavesdroppers jump into conversations they were not party to (which I had said, a few minutes sooner, that they were likely to attempt-which proved my point and was thus worse than if they'd remained silent.) I spoke with staffers. I spoke to reps from different locales. I listened to Joe Believers of various kinds. (I listened, knowing their word was not "official".) ==== "I went to ROA 1989, and saw what was happening." Ok, Oldiesman, I've GOT to hear this. You spent about 5 days, roughly continuously, on grounds, interacting, and hearing the official statements and keynote teachings and so on. So did I. I'm very dubious that you actually PAID ATTENTION. So, I'm challenging you on this OUTRIGHT. If you were actually there, and actually PAID ATTENTION, what struck you about all the "official" stuff, the keynote teachings, the main stage? I've written here before about what I came away with, but this is the first time you've ever claimed to have been there. Were you mentally there? If so, what did you see from the main stage? Now why would anyone think it would be a waste of time to try to convince Oldiesman of anything?

Duh. The guy had to move out of his house, hand over his car, find a new home for his family, find a way to get around (no, a car did not instantly materialize), Christians across the state-and in other states- were looking to him for direction and leadership WHILE THAT WAS GOING ON- as well as get a secular job and support his family, and all sorts of things that are private and I have NO KNOWLEDGE of because they were in HIS life. Having had LESS than a few months since the axe fell, he organized "the Way Bible Fellowship, NY" (which was perfectly legal and moral to do) to a greater or lesser degree (I don't know how many legal documents had been signed yet in the middle of all that), he absolutely failed to design, construct and issue NEW NAMETAGS. You've got him dead to rights. Get the stocks, we're gonna lock him in the public square. ========= BTW, the nametags themselves did not "belong" to twi, or any OTHER organization. They "belonged" to the people who owned them. If I wanted to wear my Advanced class nametag to work or on the street now, I am legally able to do so-it "belongs" to ME. If I claimed I represented the organization officially, and I was not empowered to do so, that would be a different story. However, there is no difference between wearing my old nametag, my Varsity letter, my fraternity pin or armband, my confirmation dove, or my insignia for "The Pack" on the street or at any meeting- so long as I'm not pretending to be an official spokesperson for any of those organizations. At the meeting in question, everybody (everybody whose head was not in the sand) was well aware that nobody there was representing twi, and VF SAID SO. God Almighty. You want me to overlook every type of evil lcm committed, but VF doesn't issue new nametags and it's an issue.