WordWolf

Ok, I'm in the right frame of mind to respond now. (And I have time.) Greetings, Ricky! There's a LOT of information you have NO idea about. All over the GSC website and messageboards are all sorts of secrets hidden from you, which were exposed by posters. Take the time, look around, and prepare to be shocked. Please note that many of us were VERY shocked as news came in of things we were never told, or were told outright LIES about. I'll address a few of your comments in that vein. Many of us are still Christian. Many of us who are still Christian believe that at least SOME of what twi taught, was correct. There are two things you need to know concerning this. 1) Virtually EVERYTHING of value twi taught, came from someone else's work-JE Stiles, BG Leonard, EW Bullinger, etc, and was already "available" before VPW ever taught it. 2) Christians all over the US have made great strides since the 1950s-but TWI did NOT. Many Christians can OUTPERFORM the majority of TWI people in MANY Christian concerns. This is especially true when discussing subjects where TWI had NO information or grossly-outdated information, such as the historical record of Bible documents. TWI is STILL grossly underinformed on this subject, and always was. We have many of these memories as well.We now know a lot more and understand them better, however. Again. God's Truth is NOT the sole province of TWI, and never was, no matter WHAT you were told. Other Christians have answers, some have the SAME answers, and some OUTPERFORM TWI. You know how, if you plagiarize and are caught, you can be kicked out of a college and will be flunked from a class and face all sorts of penalties? VPW plagiarized ALL THE TIME. So, "his" truths were someone else's truths that VPW walked up to and photocopied. What no one told you, was that VPW was the SOURCE of a lot of that BEHIND THE SCENES. He was brilliant at covering his tracks. So, that wasn't "introduced later" into what "special things" VPW did. It was in place from the beginning, placed there BY VPW. Martindale did NOT have the skill of hiding his vices and malicious acts that VPW did. He learned the ACTS from him, but not how to HIDE them. They have NO idea what VPW did. Some of the eyewitnesses know, however. They post here. Raw IQ points and the ability to score high on tests do not equal an ability to interact in a healthy fashion with people, nor does it mean they see behind ALL the lies, or even MOST of the lies. By your standards, they may see a lot- but how "objective" are your standards when much of what you see is what they WANTED you to see? That's great!Let them interface with other young Christians! Then ALL of them can learn things from EACH OTHER! She'll have to learn the HARD WAY how to evaluate things for herself, including what she THOUGHT she knew... Here's responses to all of that.A) Many of the things you can find in a church are things TWI LACKS. There's no heart in TWI, if there ever was. There's heart in churches. Ever see TWI organize an act of mercy? Feed the hungry? House the homeless? Do good to someone from whom they can expect NO FAVOURS IN RETURN? Churches do that all the time. I've done that in connection with a church I wasn't a member of-how's THAT for breaking down walls? I was a Christian, I wanted to help, that was more than good enough for them. TWI says "the poor you have with you always" and just keeps making sure that money comes to hq and STAYS THERE. If TWI can't make a profit off something moneywise, don't EVER expect to see them do it. So, churches can offer what she already needs, but has no idea "what is available". B) No Trinity? That's Apostolics, Christadelphians, some others, including ex-way splinter groups. C) Dead are dead? I'm not sure how many groups as a whole teach that. The position is called "Annihilation", though, which tells you there's enough of them that it needed a word to describe them. How often does this come up in your daily walk with God? If you're not bringing it up as soon as you meet another Christian so you can look down on their "inferior doctrine", it doesn't come up much. BTW, he plagiarized that off a few of Bullinger's books. "Are the Dead Alive Now" is composed from books you can read ON THE INTERNET from Bullinger. D) The holy spirit? Ha! All charismatics, and all pentecostals, to greater and lesser degrees. Whoever learned under Stiles knows everything in the White Book (which was mostly Stiles' book with a new cover). Whoever learned under BG Leonard knows BETTER than whoever learned under TWI. VPW's "PFAL" class' holy spirit segments were lifted wholepiece from Leonard's classes on the same. VPW taught "rote", meaning he passed on what he'd gleaned from Leonard, but he didn't have MASTERY of the topic, so whenever he wasn't repeating Leonard, he made mistakes. Leonard REALLY understood the field. Leonard's classes are still taught today. E) "all nine manifestations in detail" You can learn that BETTER from Leonard's class. You can learn it AS WELL from the ex-way groups, as well as whomever God has enlightened but I've never heard of. F) "practical application of believing equals receiving". Guess what? BELIEVING DOES NOT EQUAL RECEIVING. Chapter and verse, please. The Bible teaches having confidence in God, it teaches trusting promises of God, and praying with confidence in God. It NEVER teaches that "believing equals receiving." That's why TWI never became famous for having loads of people who won big lottery jackpots. All their "believing" couldn't force events into happening, nor could they strongarm God into acting as a Divine GENIE. If you DID want to hobble your understanding and embrace this error ANYWAY, there's LOTS of other people that teach it. They're the "Word-Faith" groups, and follow Kenyon's pattern. Kenneth Hagin is just one of many others who plagiarized Kenyon on this (like VPW did.) G) "All of the groundbreaking research". This is SO incorrect I wouldn't know where to start. If you took out from "VPW's" books and classes everything he took entirely from Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, and Kenyon, you'd have almost NOTHING, and all of that would not include any substance. We've discussed that here over the years. There's a LOT of documentation on that. The research department was only allowed to produce research agreeing with VPW. When Schoenheit produced a research paper on Adultery (saying Adultery is WRONG) he was OSTRACIZED, and FIRED, and people were told they'd get possessed if they read his paper. His paper is linked on the main GSC site. Its main point is that adultery is wrong, and everything else is written to support it. Ask anyone who was IN the research department what they felt was the most "groundbreaking research" they ever did. ALL of that is COMMON KNOWLEDGE here. If you did not know ALL of that, you need to catch up and learn some things- starting with "I don't know it all". I agree. He was MUCH better at hiding his sources, and studied his subject before teaching it so his notes were aids, not a script to recite from. It was STILL ripped off from someone else, but at least the showmanship was real work...

It's not my speed, but if it's yours, more power to you.

"Caustic, critical, always looking for errors"pretty much describes lcm's despotic reign in the 1990s. Corps Week was when the Corps got together, and was when the Corps did the set-up and assembly of all the physical details needed for the ROA. (Setting up Registration, the tents, Family Tables, food stands...) So, these Corps did setup and met together, then went home. They worked for free for the week preceding ROA. Setting up all that stuff doesn't count as "helping to put it on"?That was a week's free labour! "Reproved" them? He should have THANKED them for the free labour! After all, there WAS an admission, we DID PAY for setup, so things COULD have been done with local workers, providing work for labourers locally. Of course, that would mean vpw would have to accept seeing money exit. They served a week of hard labour. What about that? Further, when did "a lifetime of Christian service" become synonymous with "involuntary servitude for life at the whims of twi"? I don't remember MANDATORY ROA attendance being required in the corps signups-did anyone sign such a document? It occasionally came as a surprise to those people who never actually WORKED for a living (vpw went straight from school into pastoring, lcm went straight from school into the way corps), but REAL jobs have REQUIREMENTS and RESPONSIBILITIES. All these people made arrangements for a VACATION WEEK from work (for some of them, this was their ONLY vacation, or was unpaid leave), paid to travel to hq on their own from all over the country, and WORKED for a week, unpaid. Now you have the nerve to say "Not good enough-work MORE for free!" NO! These people have families to support, jobs to perform, and lives to maintain. If they leave, it's because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to, simp! At the very least, you owed them profound thanks. To insult them after they worked for free is lacking in character, lacking in integrity, and lacking in Christian values. So, to you who said this, I say "F* you, AND the motorcycle you rode in on!!!!" Or, as Andy Kaufman once said, " You, sir, are a f*ing @$$h*, a F*ing @$$h*, a F*ING @$$H*!!!! " He probably had plans for an entire Ewok village in the trees, and a 4-star resort on grounds, as well. This is one of the reasons 'Uncle Harry' was important. He would tell vpw outright when something was unfeasable and stupid. Hm. "Private homes." Someone mentioned (on this thread or another?) that vpw had invited people to build their own private homes on the grounds, with their own money, and live in them, but with the proviso that the homes were twi property and reverted to twi ownership with their death. Seems most people were too savvy to agree to build $200,000 homes from the ground up, only to deed them over to someone else eventually. If slick vic could have talked them into this, he would have. I forget who lost their house in EXACTLY this way. (Actually, they lost "their" house when they left and got no money for it, so it's APPROXIMATELY this way.) I think that's the one thing lcm can rely on. His life's been a fraction of what vpw's life was to people. (the end) ============ Ok, thoughts, people? We're into the "casual ruminations and musings" portion of tonight's show....

I'm not up on news, but, last I heard, no actual divorce ever went thru. However, I REALLY thought your other comment bore repeating. :) I imagine it chafed him. Reynolds was prominently a BOT/BOD member who didn't insist on all the perks of office that Rozilla and Donna get (private house and staff, etc.) Hearing a non-BOD member was being catered to probably didn't sit so well.

"Change is good. You go FIRST!" Rescuing all the REAL Christians from twi, and putting them in HEALTHY relationships with other Christians IS "thinking in positive terms"! Imagining that this time it will be different, this time twi really can be changed and stop hurting people, is not "positive", it's FICTIONAL. It's the same type of thing an abused spouse says when they decide to take the abuser back "for one more chance"! The language of the abuser is NOT positive, it's DELUDED. But, hey, sitting around and THINKING about it, or telling someone ELSE to do it while you stay where you are, that's sure a lot EASIER, isn't it? vpw famously did that ALL thru twi's history....

So much for the "it wasn't slave labour" statements....

Well,her perception of SOMETHING, I believe, has been demonstrated. Bank-robber Willie Sutton was asked once why he robbed banks. His answer (supposedly) was "because that's where the MONEY is." As we saw in this thread, Donna and Craig barely knew each other before lcm decided to get married, then vpw found her for him, and told her that lcm's star was going to rise high in twi. After this conversation, she was willing to marry a man she barely knew. What wa$ the rea$on for thi$? It doe$n't make much $en$e from a $piritual, Biblical per$pective... After that, the entire run of the marriage seems to have looked artificial and contrived. Some people have criticized political figures for having marriages that have appeared that way at times-but they're supposed to be in politics, and that makes sense in a realpolitik way. For supposed leaders in Christian circles, they are supposed to be blameless, beyond reproach and set the example, not play political... oh, heck, is this news to anyone? It was a political decision on her part, and a superficial one on his part. (Moggie says marry her, ok, I marry her...) Her political acumen has served her well. With 95% of the ministry having left or been kicked out, she's managed to live in comfort and luxury. All it took was the choice to serve mammon over God, and the following of the political winds, and playing the game. Anyone wondering why she's not in the spotlight? You can do more manipulation and politicking from the shadows.... Took him long enough to make this claim. We were better than any Christians LIVING, and now we were better than any Christians who EVER lived. vpw thought of himself as greater than the Apostle Paul. You KNOW his criteria for greatness was "knowledge", after all. WHY?The only reason that makes sense is the famous "If you can teach until they have no questions, you did a good job", but that's not the answer. They may have a question that went in another direction than you taught. Me, whenever I was done teaching the Bible, I was FINE with questions. Still AM. Usually that's a GOOD time-especially when everything's fresh to mind for everyone. The only other reason I can see would be "I have made my speech, peasant. Trouble me not with your senseless prattle."

Got proof of this, or just pulled it out of the air? Don't blink. You just missed vpw admit he taught the holy spirit field without documenting it from the Word FIRST. That's because he just parroted from Leonard, Stiles, and so on. That's the only reason to be surprised someone ELSE did it. Furthermore, we've seen lcm in action. He didn't 'document' diddly about 'the spirit realm'. Well, there goes that bald statement made in pfal-which was NEVER followed up on-that the Book of Revelation wasn't difficult. Apparently, it was made just to make us think vpw was smart enough to understand it HIMSELF, but, as we see, he didnt understand it either, so he was lying thru his teeth. (Does this qualify as 'news'?) AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Rug. So much for "I have no friends when it comes to God's Word"...

As usual, one "standard" for most people,and another "standard" for the top. Which, of course, raises the question- 'Why was a day named after a person to begin with?'

Another good idea that would have been nice in practice. I'll buy that it was the first time he had to teach on his OWN and not just cut-and-paste someone else's book. So, he had worked harder than he ever had. The "5-6 hours" thing is no more true for that than it is for any other subject by any writer.

Bull. vpw did whatever he wanted and later labelled it with a spiritual name. lcm absorbed that lesson and used it without ever naming it. That's why HE would scream and vent when angry, and call it "spiritual anger." That was vpw distilled to his basic essence- I do what I want If I'm angry, I take it out on everyone I always label my actions correct and holy/spiritual As a major twit, he didn't know any better. Reporters can't be told how to dress by the people they visit- unless the dress code is a pre-requisite to entering the location. If vpw was holding a black-tie event, and issued RSVPs to the reporters, and they showed without jacket-and-tie (or equivalent for the female reporters), THAT would be a different story. Just because he felt like he was the US President didn't mean they had to TREAT him like he was. He should have been thankful they showed up at all. He was hardly the head of "a large corporation". He was a church leader (supposedly). And, since he started off by telling the reporters how to do their jobs (which he was not qualified to do), he further established himself as a 'major dipstick' in charge of a church. Do we have a reporter here who can explain-CORRECTLY- how these things are done? Ok, I can understand giving a place a field run/ shakedown, and finding what needs fixing. Makes sense. And all the years of promises to the corps and way builders were shown to be meaningless. vpw was not a gentleman, and did NOT live up to his promises AS a gentleman. He decided what he wanted, and others had to go along, and if he broke his word of honour in the process, what of it? He was neither faithful in that which was LEAST nor that which was MOST. "Honour is a mere escutcheon And so ends my catechism."- Falstaff (the rogue and thief of Shakespeare's books.) I wouldn't be willing to bet money on THAT one. He wasn't even willing to ARGUE with people. Obey or else! They needed to be TOLD this? We're missing something-they couldn't have been THAT stupid... I shall call you 'Rug', for you lie like one. Sure would have been nice if he'd LIVED it more and SAID it less... I thought he wasn't supposed to remember them all- that came up at his inauguration or something. Oh- that meant "remember vpw and forget everyone else." Silly of me. And its absence that set lcm up for a destruction and a fall. Yes- they demand oaths of allegiance and fire people who don't make them! "Free", of course, means "10% of your income, plus whatever else we can talk you into sharing, plus our tapes and magazines are priced RETAIL to earn a profit, plus our events are priced RETAIL to earn a profit, plus our classes are priced RETAIL to earn a profit." It sure cost a lot of money to "hear the Word for free." Some people in here paid over 10,000 in one year to "hear the Word for free."

Oh, people, if you only knew the sacrifices that were made, how hard the trustees relaxed for you, it would make you cry. They had to drag themselves to beautiful vacation spots and FORCE themselves to relax-all for you. They would have preferred day-trips locally, but for you, they endured packing, transit, unpacking, tourist traps, gourmet dining, and countless of mammon's attractions. Great as a slogan. Excellent as a rule of practice. And, naturally, ignored by lcm once he was done with "writing" this book. "Reprove", in this instance, means "scream at them because they displeased you." They spoke of the incident years later. vpw was a show-off that insisted that HIS usages of words was the SOLE correct one. If one wanted to be picky, 'create' might be dispensed with, but his insistence that the word "possess" was inappropriate for anything other than cases of demonic possession was silly and ignores how we got the term 'demonic possession' in the first place. The guy spoke of resources they were in command and authority over, and he said they 'possessed' them. vpw "corrected" him for using the term correctly. It's as smart as "correcting" someone for referring to someone stingy and miserly as acting "niggardly" because they don't like the term "nigger". But the 2 terms have NOTHING to do with each other. Objecting based on the sounds of words and whether you LIKE them is not a valid objection-to most people who communicate intelligently and have a standard, at any rate. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! *begins playing violin music in the background* WHAT pressure? He was doing the work he SUPPOSEDLY loved, which we loved- studying and teaching the Bible! He was being paid HANDSOMELY for it! He set his own work-schedule and hours! He had EVERY luxury he wanted! He had a wife who loved him, and the respect and adoration of thousands, if not TENS of thousands! Anytime he wanted, he could have travelled-in style- anywhere in the US and had locals treat him like a visitor of state! WHAT pressure? The pressure to STOP sinning when no one was looking? The pressure to STOP feeding his vices of drink and tobacco? The pressure to conform to the image he manufactured for himself? The pressure to-just once- act like the man he knew himself to be? I say to this man, "F* you, AND the motorcycle you rode in on!!!!!" And didn't he live to regret THOSE words....

That was at least partly true. vpw had an interesting definition of "truth", there. Which means what, exactly? I disagree. It as a better book than most, since it wasn't just vpw and his xerox machine. Also, a hardness of attitude at hq? Who would have guessed? And one of the more outrageous claims from a man notorious for outrageous claims.lcm was competent, but strictly AVERAGE at hq. The one thing the trustees excelled at was these annual meetings in resorts. How hard they worked to enjoy themselves for us! And the stone of which that heart is constructed.

The concern NEVER was for the individual. As we saw, the individuals were DISPOSABLE. With MORE people, they're MORE disposable. As the next story illustrates. I focus better taking notes. Many people do. Many people do NOT. That's why many sitting of pfal, people were told "you don't have to take notes"-some people focus better NOT taking notes. If the concern was for the INDIVIDUAL, you'd know it was just as likely. Unforgiveable sin-not taking notes on vpw's utterances. He didn't handle this privately, "of course". The corps requirements never state notetaking for all teachings is REQUIRED. Therefore, vpw broke the committment he made with this man when he so casually kicked him out. He might well have been FULLY focusing and making sure he caught every word. But, the concern was NEVER for the individual- individuals were DISPOSABLE. He wants lcm to see this, and he makes lcm the errand-boy for this. This is going to be another drama. The guy, who, like most people, completed a normal number of things, was feeling miserable, having been callously discarded by a man he so respected. Of COURSE he FEELS like he never finished anything. However, knowing only that he was in the corps, we already know he completed 1) Foundational class 2) Intermediate class 3) Home studies 4) Advanced class Now, already, as the ministry is concerned, he's progressed nicely. He made it thru the Advanced class plus its requirements. Depending on his status, he may also have completed the wow program. This guy finished lots of stuff, but vpw made him feel lower than the grass. vpw, obviously, knows this is true for the same reasons you and I do... vpw covered his own error-the casual, tyrranical dismissal-and gave an excuse All that just so vpw doesn't have to admit that he himself doesn't know how to LEAD or MANAGE people- only tyrranize. The man can't admit he's wrong. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! vpw warmed himself at many fires he did not build, and hid the names of the men he owed great debts to. He instructs lcm to follow his lead. lcm wasn't even to thank them privately-apparently, he just had to forget them.

Thanks guys, for picking up on Tesla. Tesla had substance and character, and was an absolute genius with electricity. I kept getting stuck on whether Edison was the Direct Current guy and Tesla was the Alternating Current guy, or vice versa. Edison DID invent the electric chair execution device- which used AC. He did this to try to connect AC with murder in the minds of the public. (Interesting try.) At advanced age, it appears Alzheimers or a similar problem overtook Nikola Tesla, so at THAT time he became somewhat obsessive-compulsive (in the "count your food" way.) Before that, he was very clear and focused. In fact, his illness only made him "hyper-focused". Of course, you can't blame him for lack of perfection due to illness. (vpw and lcm would, though. I suppose they'd say he eventually went "gooney-bird.")

As someone pointed out, that means vpw didn't spend as much time in Acts as he should have. And if it wasn't "chapter and verse", how did he really "know" it? He might just have been incorrect. Was it an "INVITATION" (thus optional) or a "REQUIREMENT" (thus compulsory)? Not a problem if it was an "INVITATION", but if it was, lcm should have known it would be expected of him specifically. A little public humiliation is standard operating procedure for vpw. (As it was later for lcm.) So much for "He handled it in private of course." Who wants to bet money vpw failed to set the example and write out HIS? Or, he got over himself. vpw, master of the name-drop.What did that concern have to do with Rufus Mosely? Lots of ministry people would have said the exact same thing! As if they split off from an established congregation because they wanted to do EVERYTHING their way and keep the loot and boink the females? If they did, they'd just be following in vpw's footsteps....

Hm. Very thought-provoking.

God forbid the leader should have to THINK.....lcm, apparently, is a stranger to "brainstorming"... That was a good idea. Why did they need this to be pointed out to them? And what happened to this with lcm in the 80s and 90s? As has already been pointed out, that wasn't "a door to witness", that was a lecherous older man, drunk with power, trying to impress a woman sitting next to him. What a shame. It would have been a HUGE improvement all around. That's not what the research team said the team was ABOUT... As was pointed out, vpw didn't teach by example. He would have told others to move the chairs. Plus, they needed him to explain that? Weren't they stringing the chairs already? Is this a part of "nobody knew anything unless vpw taught it to them"? He needed to be told that he had to be rested and at his best when teaching live? He had to be told to delegate some rather than try to micromanage everything? He must have learned to micromanage SOMEWHERE. Any guesses who taught him to do it?