WordWolf

My personal experience of him was quite different than most. When I interacted directly with him, he seemed a nice guy, levelheaded, and not off-the-mark. At the time, I was SCRUTINIZING him whenever I was around him, looking SPECIFICALLY for signs of problems. I did not find any. Granted-I'm possibly the only one here who can say that, and many people had negative experiences here and dealt with him more than a few weeks, but I wanted to put that out there. Under no circumstances am I claiming this made anyone else's situations no less real, nor am I saying this excuses him for what happened to them. My good experiences happened, and their bad experiences happened. (And they outnumber me.)

Shall we shave their heads now, or wait til they're lining up for Kool-aid or Flavour-Aid?

Hail, hail Paw! Who's appreciated far more than he knows.

"Lately he's been overheard in Mayfair."

Hello. I'm asking for anyone who's here who was actually IN twi or exposed to them regularly (neighbor, worked nearby) for the earliest years. If we can hear from people from before 1953, that's fantastic. However, I'm arbitrarily setting my target for what I consider the earliest I could reasonably expect people. So, I'll provide a mini-chronology of events from that timeframe to help you fix in your memory whether or not you were there. If you were, please share ANY and ALL observations, no matter how insignificant you think they are. They may prove invaluable to the rest of us. This was twi: the early years. 1953-1966. By all accounts, this starts with the first events that might draw people, and ends just before the membership explosions which began 1967 or 1968 with the hijacking of the hippies. (Depending on the source- TW:LiL says 1968, the 1985 memorial said 1967.) So, here's a few things that happened in that timeframe: 1953: BG Leonard's CTC class; first "PFAL" classes taught. 1953: JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit", first edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" constructed from Stiles' book. [somewhere in this timeframe] Bishop KC Pillai takes PFAL, and teaches Orientalisms 1955-1956 or 1957. vpw does his world tour: India (supposedly also Great Britain, Europe, and "the Bible lands".) 1957: vpw quits the Evangelical and Reformed Church officially (or is forced to leave.) 1957: the farm is bought, work begins on it. 1959-1961: summer camps other than at the farm. 1961: vpw moves to the farm and conducts operations from there (at the BRC). 1962: Lamsa teaches at the farm's summer school. 1963: vpw films "the Teacher" =========== 1967: "Are the Dead Alive Now?" is constructed from Bullinger's books; PFAL is filmed (We're stopping in 1966, not 1967, so this comes right AFTER what we're discussing. =============== So, we want everything and anything that happened from 1953's PFAL origin to just before PFAL is filmed and ADAN is self-published. Please note: if you feel you can't post in your name, but wish to share, you can send me a pm and I can write up the contents (and change the writing style to my own to preserve your anonymity.) So, are ANY of those people here at all? ANYONE?

It worked in specific times for specific reasons. It worked with Moses during the Exodus because this was a specific crisis requiring hands-on attention. (Nations wanted to wipe them out.) It worked in the time of the Judges because each judge was MADE a judge to deal with the specific failures, shortcomings and problems Israel had in each case. In the time of Samuel, the people DEMANDED a man to rule over them "like all the nations." The results looked good for a little while, but were otherwise disastrous. And God had Samuel warn the people AHEAD of time what the consequences would be. He'd want people to serve him and cook for him, he'd take their women for his pleasure-hey, this sounds familiar..

I'll explain, but first you should sit down and watch the movie "Highlander", or 5 or 6 episodes of the television show. Once you've done that, you'll probably know what I was going to say anyway.

'templelady': "12th session PFAL My class Direct Quote "If you can't speak in tongues you aren't saved" " ========== Well, we have an eyewitness to at least ONE instance where it happened. Perhaps they refer to what she experienced, perhaps they refer to another experience, perhaps they just jumped to a conclusion. Tough to say.

As others have said, GOD saved your life. Anyone else "below" Jesus Christ in the story is nice but irrelevant. Give GOD the glory. He used whatever tools were at hand to save your life. This does NOT mean you owe the TOOLS your life. Loyalty is good-to a point. If you wanted me to follow you off a cliff, you PERSONALLY would have to be beyond exceptional. (I don't think anyone's that good who's not seated at the right hand of God.) Quite a number of people were delivered from quite a number of things. Your story is not completely unique. Please don't confuse being delivered DURING PFAL with being delivered BY PFAL. As Balaam learned, even a jackass can speak the truth, but you don't just make him your guru.... Others need deliverance of that type and magnitude-I agree. You're new around here and really should do some catching-up. A lot of "old light" around here will be "new light" to you. There are a LOT of Christians out there who know their stuff. Some know BETTER than twi's best people. There are a LOT of Christians who left twi and took their stuff with them. As far as I know, even the WORST of them is better than twi. There is a big difference between "a ministry that has the Word of God" and a ministry that IS the Word of God. You were taught-as were most of us- that NO Christian outside twi is competent spiritually. This was a lie then, and it's MORE of a lie now, as there are lots more EX-twi than twi'ers. You were taught-as were all of us- that twi had a special pipeline to God. It was founded by a man receiving special revelation that was unknown for the last 1800 years or more. This was a HUGE lie. twi does NOT resemble the 1st century church. Read the book of Acts and make comparisons all the way through. Acts: - no centralized authority -much power -no verse memorizing -no talk of money except for specific, one-time events twi: -obey leadership or ELSE! -talk ABOUT power but the leaders never SHOW it; only locals -intellectual memorizing of teachings ABOUT Scripture -mandatory 15% of your income which goes to hq and STAYS there vpw's "special revelation" was that he had books from a handful of FANTASTIC Christians (and a few others) and didn't tell us he did. He plagiarized whole books from Bullinger-like "Are the Dead Alive Now?". He plagiarized Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, and the entire PFAL class. The introductions to the White and Orange Books say he learned it all from God or the Bible as his only textbook and guidebook. That was a bold-faced lie. Others here have TAKEN the class he stole- which is SUPERIOR to PFAL, and PFAL was better than that horrid WAP thing they're using now. GOD saved your life. Don't swear blind lifelong allegiance to people because of what GOD did. (Or for any other reason.) Psst. You're not the only Christian looking out for those people. Lots of other Christians are, as well. Some are among the tens of thousands who escaped twi. Some never HEARD of twi. People who learned under BG Leonard, they're FAR better equipped to help them than anyone who relies on what twi teaches. Frankly, the deepest spiritual stuff ever taught- Advanced class and higher- demonstrated a LACK of understanding of a number of things. Think hard-I'm sure you noticed them and never asked questions..... Yes. God does not deliver people only to beat them down again. Staying with twi WILL do that, however. Like myself, I think you never saw all the REALLY bad stuff. Look around here-there's eyewitness accounts, accounts foolishly committed to writing or tape, and other things. I was VERY shocked to hear even the lighter stuff. I can't forgive the emotional rapists. They didn't emotionally rape me. They didn't physically rape me. (They did BOTH to other people, though.) They made the deliberate decisions to value money and property over God's people, and chose to take any action they could to keep the money. There's hundreds of personal accounts here. Or you can check the audio files and hear how someone's kid died because their family chose to leave twi. The worst of the bunch are still occupying the highest positions in twi. That won't change as long as twi exists. Read about all the things they did. After 10% of them, you may change your mind. Mathematically speaking, the probability is not zero. However, I won't expect it until I do things MORE likely, like win the Lotto. The evidence supports them making the APPEARANCE of change, wiping clean the OUTSIDE of the cup, whitewashing the sepulchre, while leaving the inside of the cup dirty, the sepulchre full of dead men's bones. They promise to never again get caught breaking the law. First, the people at the top would have to CARE. They do not CARE about the corruption. They are ORIGINATING the corruption. They LIKE the corruption. They MAINTAIN the corruption. The people at the top will never ALLOW real reform, since that means they will have to let go of "their" money. They may allow lots of TALK about change, and they may lie through their teeth, but that's appearances. The candidates are being drawn from some of the people on the planet LEAST capable of critical thinking and evaluative study. (Ask jkboeme-he can explain that one all day-and has.) The people training them were trained to be LOYAL above all else. Nobody exists in twi who CAN train properly. The thought police run the bod/bot. THOSE thought police have you convinced they're not thought police. They DON'T want twi people thinking for themselves. We can never "return" to a place we've never BEEN. There was an illusion of this, and there was a reality of it for a few months around 1970. That lasted until vpw purged out all the people saying that. (He found them useful before that.) He was lying. He didn't get involved because he had a heart of stone. He did not CARE about your problems. He was carefully taught by vpw NOT to care about anyone's problems. When he DID care, vpw taught him to STOP caring. (See the "vp and me in wonderland" thread for documentation of this happening.) They were never ON that track. The ministry had wonderful people locally, some good Bible teaching, and a bunch of leadership that wouldn't recognize God's Love if it honked their noses- starting with vpw. (See "the way:living in wonderland" thread for documentation of this.) I would agree in principle. I would also add that these are not the ONLY way God works with us. Locally, that may be true. (I don't know your local situation.) Ministry-wide, that is NOT true, no matter what they told you. I hope you have a good exit plan ready for when (not if) they kick out your local leader for actually encouraging you to think. If not, and you get stuck, you can always post here and ask for advice. We've been at this for years.

Well, Belle already beat me to everything I was planning on saying, so you can just re-read her reply and you'll have the essence of it. :) Since she did, I'll take this opportunity to address the initial post specifically. (I think we're drifting off the subject.) The question on the table: "Is it possible to fix the Way Corps?" I think it is a good thing when good people want to do their utmost for God. I think it is a good thing to want to improve in that ability. Training programs are a standardized way to do this, and are more efficient than some other ways. (Although programs sacrifice QUALITY and DEPTH for QUANTITY and SPEED. That's something to keep in mind with ANY program.) That over-simplifies what they need to learn, but yes.Of books, they know they know less than they think they do, and less than they CAN know just by going online. The more important lessons are harder to teach in a classroom, but some can be taught by DOING, and some by listening to someone with those skills. God's people need many things. The Way Corps learned ONE of those things- give them The Word- pretty well, but it learned almost nothing of all the others. Fixing that is NOT easy. The biggest problem there is that each can only offer what HE has, and the easiest thing for them all to offer is only what they all already know. Unless exceptional measures are taken, all that will happen is they'll learn a little bit, then think they learned EVERYTHING. When it comes to training, the LAST people they should go to should be twi, and the last people before THEM is each other. More benefit could be found by sending each in a DIFFERENTdirection, to learn from different people, different situations, learning different lessons. A few could go into OTHER Christians' programs, most should just get out there and DO things and try to work under, and learn from, quality Christians who have never heard of anything they were ever taught. That brings up several other problems. I explained what the problem is with "gathering them". You may just reinforce the BAD things they learned and fill a room with them. Some of them are convinced they received the greatest training in the world, and ANY words against that will be greeted with attacks and screaming. That's what they were TAUGHT to do by example. So, if you speak about the problems, you likely won't get them to agree they exist and are actually problems. "Help each other"- I answered this already, also. The last two, I almost feel bad to tell you. "Improve the Way Corps. Establish leadership." Overall, as a program, the Way Corps was a major failure. The useful Bible answers can all be fit into ONE year- which is what the college division did. That left 3 years' worth of time where little of use was taught. They did manual labor for twi and so on. The other really useful things were dangerous- rockclimbing and so on. Not everybody who wants to do their best for God should go rock-climbing- which we've seen. A lot of the remaining time was learning obedience to leadership above them, and learning to yell at people and ignore their needs. As for "establishing leadership", I'd hesitate to trust any Corps grad to be a good leader. Not all of them WOULD make good leaders, and their "leadership training" made for OBEDIENT "leaders", not GOOD ones. And vpw and lcm wanted it that way.

You guys provided all the answers, as good or better as I can, at the moment. I just wanted to add something on this comment, in case anyone's curious. In a large part, CG seems to have been (and is still?) a vpw worshipper in that he's often treated vpw's "work" on a subject as if there's little improvement that can be made on it. (This is not ALWAYS true-he disagreed with policy on vpw as to whether or not a tape-recording should include worship manifestations or not, and his explanation was the first time I remembered hearing BG Leonard's name. Further, he sought to improve the Advanced class, and some of his changes WERE improvements. But I digress.) As a result of CG's beliefs, CG spent a LOT of time editing vpw's work for later publication. If memory serves, "Order My Steps in Thy Word" was edited by CG and "written" by vpw. The book for "Living Victoriously" worked the same way, except it MENTIONED CG editing it. If it was representative of his work in general, then he printed all the substance and trimmed out insults and occasional cheapshots. (The taped "Living Victorously" contains cheapshots and insults not contained in the book, but much of the rest is word-for-word. Except for announcements and other taped comments not germane to the teaching.) CG published several books like this, compilations of things vpw taught- "Take God at His Word", "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus" "Our Times" and so on. The timing of "Future Considerations" coming out seemed to me to have been dictated. Right after lcm drew his line in the sand and said "no more soup for you" (and thus "no way magazine for you"), CG came out with an alternative. The format was explained in either the first issue or in a cover letter included. I still remember the description/ Future Considerations had up to 3 parts per issue, and they varied issue to issue. "D'beni Baita" was from the Aramaic for "from the household". This was announcements, and was usually the smallest part. "Ek tou didaskalou" was from the Greek for "from the teacher". This was an article edited by CG and "written by" vpw. "Ek tou logou" was from the Greek for "from the Word." This was an article by CG, but, based on the description, could be by anyone EXCEPT vpw, who had his own category. Early issues seemed to be almost all "Ek tou didaskalou". Later issues often were all "Ek tou logou", like the 8-parter on Abraham that included every verse on him in Scripture. (It was called "an introductory study" on him, but it was basically book length in total. That bugged me by the start of Part 5.)

Actually, I've read their stuff and jkboehme's stuff. I don't agree with every single line of every single thing either has said. However, Jkboehme's got a higher batting average in my eyes. That is in SPITE of using the technical terms and not BECAUSE of them. (Yes, I can keep up with him when I want to.) I find he documents and cites more specifically and more accurately than they do, and makes it more clear when he's opining versus, say paraphrasing or summarizing. That may have never been implied to you. I don't remember being taught it myself. HOWEVER, not only were there many places you and I were not, there were different timeframes where different things where taught in different places. If I were to try to predict places where this sort of thing was overheard, I'd guess that one place and time was the exponential growth in 1969-1971 when vpw used hippies (Christian raw recruits with lots of heart) to market his product. When I hear them reminisce about what that time was like, I hear comments that sound a lot like that. So, it is possible that WAS taught OUTRIGHT, then and there, and other places. It's also possible someone misunderstood something, jumped to a conclusion, and this has become an urban myth about twi. (I know a few of those.) Not having heard the original quote or citation, I can't say for sure. However, I can say they didn't DOCUMENT their claim, which is sloppy. Finally, I HAVE heard DIFFERENT stuff that was stupider than that, which WAS taught at twi. My personal favourite was lcm giving a reason why you might not want to "speak the Word" to someone, based on a mangling of a verse, and the resultant misunderstanding vpw taught.

*clap-clap-clap-clap-clap* That's "Take the Money and Run", the Steve Miller Band, I think, is the artist. If not, it's a safe guess. A lot of the songs I get stuck on are the same 3-4 bands, and that's one.

My suggestion would be to have a few ways to keep communication open between as many HEALTHY CHRISTIANS as you can. If things happen exactly as you say, the open communication will only make things better. If they happen the way most of us saw them happen to us, then you'll NEED to be able to communicate with each other. Given a corrupt structure you're trying to change, one or more of you is likely to be stepped on or kicked out and M&A'ed. ONCE THAT HAPPENS, open communication can help that person, and the rest of you can see he was better off OUT and so are you. So, either way, open communication networks are better.

Hm. In 1989, I spoke for a time with a guy who taught about history- it could have been that class he mentioned. He was a real pinhead. I bet it was this guy.

Themex: "I am not mad, I just need an answer that means something to me :P in the context of what I been living." Oh. That's different. "The Church- the body of Christ- needs elders, leadership. That is in Ephesians." The church needs leaders. I agree with you and Ephesians. " And The Way Corps since the first century church is the best that the body has had." Ok, now, THIS is where the problem is. You believe this is true because you have been TOLD this is true. Where do I start explaining? The Way Corps program was designed specifically by vpw, who lacked any training OR experience with training programs. The resulting program taught some things vpw could teach, and suffered from all the problems he had. The Corps were unable to learn Church history because vpw knew none, and always wanted to hide what OTHER Christians do, and pretend that none existed from the 1st century AD until he taught PFAL. Further, he taught that all Christians outside his group were inferior. The Way Corps learned all his bad habits, some good Bible, and missed much. They learned how to BOSS but not to LEAD-since HE did not know how to lead. They did not know how to comfort the suffering- since he knew how to manipulate but not how to suffer with those brought low. Thus, they learned that a Christian responds to need and suffering by reciting Bible verses, and that's it. Give the person a "pep talk" and send them out. REAL Christians comfort those in pain, aid the suffering, and roll up their sleeves and do the MESSY WORK. Sometimes that means doing something and NOT reading Bible verses. Sometimes that means forgetting all the rules, and listening to God give you a set of odd or silly instructions, then carrying them out and looking silly. Many good people went into the Way Corps as good people, and came out as good people. Many good people went into the Way Corps as good people, and came out with their hearts injured and their personalities bleeding. Many good people went into the Way Corps as good people, and came out as little tyrants, barking out orders and having hearts of stone. Many bad people went into the Way Corps as bad people, and came out as WORSE people (who now had a title and could abuse people.) There were good things and bad things learned in the Corps program. The program itself- to REALLY help Christians-needed a complete redesign to do that-and still does. So, in short, the Way Corps as a whole are not even CLOSE to what you were taught they were. =========== That's the bad news. Now it's time for the good news. The good news is that, just as someone lied to you about the Way Corps, someone lied to you about other Christians, too. Other Christians are not idolatrous monsters who go around with no knowledge of God. Many of them are well-informed. Many of them know most of what twi people knew. Many of them know what twi people never knew. Many of them have depth of character- something a real Christian NEEDS and twi NEVER had. You can "see a sermon" in their lives rather than hear someone reciting Bible verses ABOUT the subject. I love the Bible, but doing that often means LIVING it, not just RECITING it. Learning a new Greek word can be fun- lifting up those who were brought down can CHANGE LIVES. Which would you rather be remembered for? So, look around the area you are in. I'm certain there are GOOD Christians and BAD Christians in your area. Look for the LOVE. Jesus said the world would know his disciples for their LOVE, not for their book-knowledge. With internet access, it is possible to find thousands and thousands of Christians. With a little walking or driving, you can find hundreds or thousands of Christians. Did that answer your question, or do you absolutely insist on just hearing more of what you already learned and NEVER going beyond that?

Even AVERAGE stewardship and care for one's body means you keep yourself from doing harmful things, or doing ANYTHING to the degree that it affects your health. vpw was adamant that the people who followed where he led keep their expenses low, and refrain from expensive vices. There were incidences where he required some people to give up smoking to raise the money for their corps tuition. There's thousands more incidents that don't spring to mind, or I was never told since they were face-to-face with people. That alcoholism is hurtful and dangerous has been known since before the 20th century BEGAN. That cigars and cigarettes were harmful to health has been known to be harmful to one's health, and a KNOWN CARCINOGEN, has been old news for most of the second half of the century. (Even asbestos wasn't known to be dangerous that long.) Now, you're SUPPOSED to take care of your body. vpw knew this well. He wrote this into the Corps Principles: bodily training, to make their body, the instrument of God's Word, as healthy as possible. This, of course, was another example of "do as I say, not as I do", because vpw would never do a single run with the corps, or any OTHER exercise. vpw knew that even LIGHT exercise was healthy, and good for him, and doing it would set a good example for "his kids", the corps. However, that would require effort and self-discipline. vpw TOLD the corps to have self-discipline, but never showed them self-discipline by example. Commonsense care of your body means you do a minimum of things, at least. You get occasional light exercise, avoid doing ANYTHING a lot (except maybe exercising) and be mindful of ANYTHING you put into your body. It means you don't do things that are dangerous to your body, period. You don't walk around in the middle of a highway, you don't shove your hands in fans, and you don't intake harmful things on a regular basis. To continue to do something you KNOW is harmful to you is never a good idea. To do so every day is foolish, and probably means the person is addicted. Such a person could use help and compassion to free themselves from addiction, but what they need most is SELF-DISCIPLINE. vpw complained of a lack of self-discipline among the corps, but he demonstrated poorer self-control than THEY did. Further, to DAILY drink alcohol is EXPENSIVE. To DAILY smoke cigarettes or cigars is EXPENSIVE. To spend "God's money" on vices like alcohol or tobacco is poor stewardship of God's money. The man who taught that people should send him 10% of their money because it disciplines the mind by believing (from "Christians Should Be Prosperous") took that 10% resulting from THEIR discipline, and spent a significant amount of it on alcohol and tobacco because of his LACK of discipline. Finally, don't be deliberately obtuse. EVERYBODY knows that you can't predict ALL cases of cancer with 100% accuracy. Some people seem to get it suddenly with no noticeable causes, some people seem to not-get it despite exposure to carcinogens. We have the word "carcinogen". A carcinogen is something that causes cancer. Known carcinogens are things known to cause cancer. Asbestos is the only known cause of "mesothelioma", a type of cancer. Want to avoid mesothelioma? Stay away from asbestos. Want to avoid ALL forms of cancer? Stay away from everything known to CAUSE cancer. Will this guarantee 100% that you won't get cancer? No, but it improves your odds considerably. That's the same as trying to avoid getting hit by cars by not playing around in the street. This won't guarantee you won't ever be hit by a car, but it eliminates FOOLISH RISKS. Here's something from the website of the professional organization known as the American Cancer Society: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/ped_10.asp "Tobacco and Cancer. Smoking damages nearly every organ in the human body, is linked to at least 10 different cancers, and accounts for some 30% of all cancer deaths." If you personally are not aware that smoking seriously increases your risks of getting cancer, then you are poorly informed for someone living at the dawn of the 21st century. Finally, I'm sorry that Don W died of cancer. I'm sorry that your father died of cancer. I can think of little good that could possibly be said of discussing either's death, except in discussing that doctors need to learn the OTHER causes of cancer as well. The reason we discuss vpw getting cancer, retaining cancer, losing organs to cancer and dying of cancer is the utter hypocrisy in his life that this underscores. The man claimed that people should have more discipline. He himself derided others for lacking discipline -but he had LESS discipline than THEY had-and he claimed to teach THEM about discipline. The man claimed that someone who got cancer got it from the activity of a devil- and said nothing of known substances to which exposure is known to give cancer. This man exposed himself to one every day. Supposedly, he had a fantastic connection to God, yet-according to HIS words- he was unable to deflect a devil's direct attack on him which inflicted a cancer. According to him, Christians could be delivered from ALL illnesses so long as their believing was sufficient. According to him, he himself had fantastic believing. All of his supposed fantastic believing could not deliver him from his illness like he said could be done. His teachings caused people suffering from illnesses to be BLAMED for illnesses-since supposedly they could shake them off" by believing. vpw did NOTHING to put that to rest, and it was the result of his doctrine. It had to be obvious to him that his teaching HAD to be error when it completely failed to work for him. Rather than correct his teaching, however, he chose to LIE and deceive people. "He didn't get cancer-his eye was damaged by bright lights and years later, his eye was destroyed. He didn't die of cancer-he stopped believing to live. He died of a broken heart because nobody wanted to believe God." All of that was deliberate lies covering known doctrinal ERROR, but covered up to maintain the illusion that vpw was some great one. Perhaps all the lies, coverups and deceptions are new to you. If so, you have a lot of catching up to do. There's documentation all over this messageboard, the main website, and the links. If you want the truth, you will look into them- but I warn you, you will be shocked and offended at some of the things you will learn. That makes them no less truthful.

I could not be MORE "real". "Who is going to teach us the Word"? To hear JESUS CHRIST tell it (THE man of God for our day and time), our teacher is "THE COMFORTER", aka Holy Spirit. He shall teach us "all things". (John 14:26.) If he is THE teacher, then anyone else is a footnote, a secondary consideration at the most. BTW, how is my answer "off-topic" but your question is not? The topic is about twi and the US vs "international countries". That makes your question about who's right "off topic." YOU started. I answered YOUR question and you announced answering YOUR question was "off topic." Just because you didn't LIKE my answer didn't mean it was "off-topic" nor WRONG. ======== Your entire line of questioning is based on misconceptions. So, the questions are "wrong". Who's in charge of the Christians? CHRIST. Who teaches us? THE HOLY SPIRIT. Do you need all the verses supporting this? As to "who should we follow", my answer, depending on EXACTLY what you mean is either A) JESUS CHRIST or B) NO ONE. This "following" business is what got us in trouble in the first place. I believe it was Confucius who said that a wise man does not concern himself with allegiances (loyalty, who to "follow"), but when he sees right, he ranges himself alongside it.

The real leader of God's people for our day and time? That's easy. It's JESUS CHRIST. Jesus Christ is THE man of God for our day and time. Jesus Christ is THE man of God for ALL TIME. Jesus Christ is THE spiritual leader. Jesus Christ is THE spiritual head- and anyone else claiming to be the spiritual head other than Jesus is a thief or a robber. And SHAME on you for forgetting that long enough to post this question. (For those of you non-Christians out there, I wasn't speaking for or about you-just Christians.)

Ok, here's the third draft of my timeline, with more tweaks, additions and improvements. (And mostly from publications OF TWI.) ========= Let's see. What did vpw AUTHORIZE to be revealed about himself..... victor paul wierwille was born to a large family of German descent. (Born December 31, 1916.) Each child had their own chores. Little Victor chose to neglect his chores, and would vanish for hours into the woods nearby. When he was young, he once told a minister that he wanted to be a man of God like him. Other than this statement, Little Victor showed no actual involvement in the church, no actual effort or work in the things of the church. So, this seems to suggest an interest-not in being a man of God- but in being the man the whole community turned out to see, to have their respect. As a teenager, young Vic continued to lack any qualities of a man of God. In fact, he went out of his way to earn a reputation going in the opposite direction. He was a bully, a showoff and a braggart. He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit. One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention. His demonstrated talents seemed to be limited to his quick wit and his ability to play a guitar, which he showed competency in. Old Man Wierwille was preparing to pass on the family farm to young Vic, as was the family tradition. Young Vic balked at this. He'd had plans to go to college. At first, he considered a few fields-business and so on- but by this time, he had decided upon the seminary. (This was before the time he referred to as "believing the Bible as the Word of God".) Old Man Wierwille was skeptical of this, and said that young Vic, having shown lack of hard work on simple manual labour on the farm, would never make a good preacher. Young Vic convinced him he would do better with books than with sweating out in the field. Young Vic went to school for the ministry. His community thought it was some kind of joke- everyone knew he lacked the proper character. (He never overcame that impression with them.) Victor had the option to study "Bible Languages" or other subjects requiring hard study. He instead chose to study Homiletics, the "softest" option he could have learned. (He never overcame his deficiency in study in Bible languages, church history, etc.-not even to the level of an informed layman as of 2004.) Victor was married July 2, 1937(Mr was 20, Mrs was 21). He graduated with a BA from Lakeland College in 1937. Donald was born in 1940. Victor graduated Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941, to earn his Masters in Practical Theology from Princeton Theological Seminary, also in 1941. He did his "trial sermons" in 1941 in Payne, Ohio for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. According to his memorial in 1985, he started his first pastorate July 1941, and was ordained July 29, 1941. (According to his account in TW:LIL, his first pastorate began in 1944 in Van Wert, Ohio, and continued until 1957.) Victor entered his first pastorate and wasted little time becoming a bully and a control freak AGAIN. He himself claims he started his job by immediately doing whatever the elders told him not to do- even though it hampered his ability to do his job properly. According to him, they confronted him on this, he mouthed off at them, and they just let him go about his business, and the local church prospered as a direct result of him. He was known for building a fairly interesting sermon, and getting people involved, including the youths. (This was STILL before the time when he claimed he believed the Bible was the Word of God.) He said the following year, (1942) he slowly became discouraged and was searching. He was still the man he had been, which is to say he was prideful, arrogant, boastful, liked attention, and viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling. (He could have been just as "called" as an accountant or actuary, say.) During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister. About a year later (Payne, 1942, August), he meets Rosal1nd R1nker. This woman fixed a great deal of attention on him, and had a forceful personality. She spent some time with him alone. It was of this time that he later claimed he asked forgiveness of God. He also credits her with DOGGING HIM "on the Bible being the Word of God", and she "got me STARTED on the right track". which, until this time, he hadn't believed, not even in all his years of school. During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister in August AND September. One month later (September 1942), an event happened that he later showed a habit of re-writing. As Victor told God he was getting ready to quit (again), He claimed that God spoke to him and said He (God) would teach him (Victor) His Word (God's Word) like it had not been known since the 1st century, if he (Victor) would teach it to others. (This is the famous 1942 promise.) Victor of course lacked the education in church history to contextualize this claim-since it was inaccurate as stated. This implies that this was a made-up story, or it came from a god lacking knowledge in history. Victor later added a second part to his story- a snowstorm. He said that he required PROOF of God, and asked God to let him see it snow. A moment later, he opened his eyes, and he saw a veritable blizzard out his window. The later addition to this story suggest that he felt it needed more support after using the initial story. Victor showed no marked improvement, neither in character, nor in behaviour, thru the rest of the 1940s (nearly the entire decade after this supposed promise), which strongly supports the rather direct assertion that he lied thru his teeth. October 3, 1942, vpw does his first radio broadcast. He continued to do a radio show under one name or another for several years- Vesper Chimes, aka Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. Its name changes to Chimes Hour Youth Caravan in 1947. Rhoda joined its staff in 1947. In 1948, vpw is issued a "Doctorate" from Pikes Peak Seminary, an organization lacking accreditation and formal classes (among other things.) At one point, Rufus Moseley attempts to minister Holy Spirit to vpw, but vpw demonstrates an inability to receive it. In 1951, he visits missionaries in Honduras. In 1951, vpw makes another claim he's ready to give up on the ministry (even after, supposedly a direct promise of God about really important stuff which promptly failed to materialize.) In November, 1951, vpw attends the Full Gospel Rally, in Tulsa, Oklahoma (a big Evangelical conference.) He made several claims of this conference. People at the conference OTHER than vpw supposedly had no difficulty beginning speaking in tongues. He claims he faked speaking in tongues in a clever way, and others were unable to tell. He is further disillusioned about working for God. He then claims a miraculous snowstorm blocked him into the city entirely, and ALL evidence there was that there WAS no blizzard (and there was a WEALTH of evidence-at the airports, Amtrak and bus depot, the hotel staff, the attendees, etc) was concealed by angels. vpw also, apparently, never approached a window, or they made an illusion at the window. Supposedly, a woman comes up to him and tells him that she knows a man who can help him- JE Stiles. He claims God told Stiles to attend the conference with the sole purpose of ministering the Spirit to vpw. vpw meets with Stiles, and makes a few chauvanistic observations to himself, before going off with Stiles. Stiles works with him for hours and hours, hammering across to vpw what the Bible says on speaking in tongues, and working over his doubts one by one for hour upon hour. Finally, vpw was able to speak in tongues. It was during the 1950s that vpw's behaviour was noted to finally improve, although he still did not stop including inappropriate words or concepts in his sermons. In 1953, vpw finds out about BG Leonard, and pushes his way into BG Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class, which Leonard permits. vpw takes this class twice, bringing several people with him the second time. vpw then went off for a few months by himself, then told Leonard that he'd like to run Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class locally for his congregation on a one-time basis. Seeing the benefit to other Christians, Leonard agrees. vpw then runs the first of "his" PFAL classes, and takes a photograph of that class. He tells the students that this is "his" class called PFAL, with NO mention of Leonard's class from which 100% of the content has been directly lifted. The students have no reason to think he's lying. vpw sends the photograph to Leonard and said tells Leonard that this is a photo of the class that took Leonard's class on a one-time basis that was run locally. Leonard takes vpw at his word, and has no idea that vpw continues to run Leonard's class with vpw's name on it, defrauding both Leonard AND the students. To this day, many students STILL think this was was vpw's class, even when evidence is introduced to the contrary. Later, vpw added the contents of JE Stiles' work on "Gifts of the Spirit" and Bullinger's work on the Holy Spirit as well as "How to Enjoy the Bible", and expanded the class into a class that was the sum of the 3 men's work-Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard-rather than just Leonard. vpw later makes a few offhand comments here and there that the material in the class is not original, but its compilation was. (However, as it was constructed, vpw could have been sued by copyright holders for Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard. Leonard found out but chose not to prosecute.) In 1953, vpw also takes JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit" book, changes a few words, and self-publishes it as the 1st Edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." (Later editions would include incorporation of material from Leonard and Bullinger, and would include more cosmetic changes in the order of the words and the specific words used in an attempt to make it look less like Stiles' book.) vpw runs "his" PFAL classes continually from 1953 onward, with some success. According to his published memorial, Bishop KC Pillai took PFAL in 1954, and began teaching a class on "Orientalisms of the Bible". (Pillai also wrote 3 small books: "Light Through an Eastern Window" and Volumes I and II of "Orientalisms of the Bible.") According to the memorial in 1985, 1955 was the year they officially chartered "the Way". In 1955, JP was born. 2 months later, VPW leaves JP with family for the next year or so, taking his wife and eldest son on a tour of the mission fields in India, on the Evangelical and Reformed Church's dime. (1955-1957) (Per TW:LIL) He is irritated that he's reminded he is not officially designated as a spokesman or investigator of theirs. According to his account in TW:LIL, there he meets Bishop KC Pillai, whom he later invites to teach. According to the memorial, this tour of the mission fields from 1955-1956, and includes stops in Great Britain, Europe, India, and "the Bible lands." According to the memorial, 1956 is when he wrote "the Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India." (According to TW:LIL) In 1957, vpw returns to Van Wert. He cuts his ties with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and takes "his" PFAL class with him. In 1957, he and Harry buy out their brothers and buy the family farm outright. Rather than take ownership themselves, they declare it the property of "the Way", a church organization (thus tax-exempt.) (Per TW:LIL, Harry said this was the time they chose the name "the Way".) Work begins on fixing up the farm. In 1959, he runs a Wisconsin Summer Camp. In 1960, he runs an Indiana Summer Camp. In 1961, he moves to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient for the move). Bishop Pillai arrives and teaches at the summer school. (Per TW:LIL.) In 1961, he runs a Miamisburg, Ohio Summer Camp. In 1962, he moves the summer school to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient to hold classes there in the new BRC.) In 1962, Lamsa teaches at the summer school. (Lamsa is another unconventional teacher who claims special knowledge of the Bible and special status as a man of God.) In 1963, vpw goes to Lima, Ohio and films the sessions called "the Teacher". (Despite this, success STILL has not taken off as vpw wished.) According to the memorial, 1967 is when "Are the Dead Alive Now?" (which is adapted from some of Bullinger's books) was published, and PFAL was filmed. According to TW:LIL In 1967, vpw reads about the Christians at the House of Acts. vpw goes there, impresses them, and convinces them he has extensive, EXCLUSIVE knowledge they lack. He then turns those he can from unorganized Christians into a recruitment arm for his class and organization. They agree to handle things on the East and West coasts, and many young Christians are impressed with THEM and join. According to the memorial, his trip to Haight-Ashbury/House of Acts was in 1968. As of 1969, sizeable numbers of young people had flocked to twi from both coasts as a result. Once there was sizeable membership in both coasts, vpw pushed out the Christians from the House of Acts and insisted authority would come FROM hq and tithes would go TO hq. No exceptions. At that point (1969), vpw made his first attempt at a Way Corps, which resulted in the famous "Zero Corps". In 1971, vpw began his WOW Ambassador program. This program underwent some changes, but primarily was a one-year committment to get sent out, support yourself, find housing, and run PFAL classes. According to his memorial, 1971 was when the Orange Book, "Power for Abundant Living" was first self-published. It contained mostly material from Leonard's class and from Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible". A number of pamphlets called "Studies in Abundant Living" accompanied the PFAL class from fairly early on (the filmed class names "Studies in Human Suffering", later renamed "Job:Victim to Victor".) In 1971, the first 3 volumes of "Studies in Abundant Living" are published. In 1974, Emporia College in Emporia, Kansas is bought. It is renamed "the Way College of Emporia". Despite an absence of accreditation, licensed professors, and a school "library" composed ENTIRELY of used textbooks donated by way members, it is put forth as if it is a normal, accredited college. In 1975, "Jesus Christ is Not God" is published. This is the last book-not counting Vol 4 of Studies in Abundant Living- that is actually put together by vpw. In 1976, campuses are purchased in Rome City, Indiana ("the College of Biblical Research) and Gunnison, Colorado (the Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison). In 1977, the PFAL '77 is done live at Ball State University. According to the memorial, in 1977, Howard Allen and "Uncle" Harry Wierwille were installed as Trustees on the Board of Trustees. In 1977, Volume 4 of Studies in Abundant Living was published. In 1978, the land for the LEAD Outdoor Academy was purchased in Tinnie, New Mexico. In 1979, Advanced Class '79 ran (live, I imagine.) In 1980, "Jesus Christ Our Passover" was published. This was the first book written by competent staff and researchers. According to the book itself, it is written "by Victor Paul Wierwille", with no mention of anyone else. It is a higher-caliber book than twi normally self-publishes. In 1982, twi celebrates its "Fortieth Anniversary" since the radio shows that weren't called "the Way". In 1982, vpw installed LCM as the new president of twi and vpw becomes "president emeritus". In 1982, "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was published. It also is written by staff, and says "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. It relies largely on the calculations of another writer as well. This book also saw the breakthrough of proper crediting, since it actually named the other writer (Martin) and his book. In 1984, a live PFAL class was taught at Camp Gunnison, and a manor house is purchased in Gartmore, Scotland. It is named the Way College of Biblical Research. (aka Gartmore House, or "the big house" to the villagers of Gartmore.) In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opens at the organizations hq on the farm. vpw dies May 20, 1985 at age 68. Volume 5 of Studies in Abundant Living is published posthumously. Its contents are from vpw, it is edited by Chr1$ Ge** ============ Ok, that's better still. I STILL need to put something better about Lamsa (I'm open to suggestions), and I'm missing the timeframe for Dr EE Higgins, his "fan" who called and visited all the time. Interesting how some of those dates conflict from source to source.

In 1985, vpw died of metastatic melanoma of the liver and ocular melanoma. In plain English, that's cancer of the liver and cancer of the eye. A physician or atheist would say this was obviously due to his continuous drinking of alcoholic beverages (which damaged his liver and weakened his immune system to a degree) and his continuous smoking of cigars and cigarettes (which exposed him to large amounts of KNOWN carcinogens over long periods of time.) vpw taught in his Advanced class that cancer was the direct result of demonic activity. His rationale for this was that cancer supposedly has a life of its own, so it must be the result of a separate life-form. vpw ALSO taught that people who did not receive deliverance from disease were FAILING in their believing, since they could receive deliverance at any time. Thus, people who contracted cancer had been the successful target of a "devil-spirit", and people who did not overcome cancer had failed in their believing. vpw put forth-and encouraged others to put forth- that he was some sort of super-believer, exceptional as a Christian and in his believing, in fact, in a category all by himself. (Well, him, Adam and Jesus.) Thus, he was "hoist on his own petard". Since, according to his own teachings, he had to be spiritually inferior to suffer from cancer, he could acknowledge he was teaching error- which would shatter his supposed infallibility as a mouthpiece for God- or admit he was spiritually inferior- which would shatter his supposed infallibility as a mouthpiece for God. As for himself, he seems to have convinced himself to a degree that his doctrines were actually right, and he also WAS a super-believer. He claimed in private that, before this, he'd never been sick a day in his ENTIRE LIFE, and, on his deathbed, he wondered what mistake he was making that was interfering with his believing to destroy the cancer. As for the organization, there were huge coverups of the problems. When he got cancer in his eye, he personally claimed-and had others claim- that it was NOT the result of his lengthy exposure to known carcinogens- but instead it was the result of the bright lights he used in the filming of PFAL. Bright lights, to this day, have NEVER been shown to have ANY ability to cause cells to become cancerous (except lengthy exposure to special ultraviolet "sun lamps", which he did NOT use.) His excuse (which lacks merit) allowed him to claim he was suffering for a "spiritual reason". He did NOT allow the word "cancer" to be spoken about it, just that his eye was destroyed by the lights so he could film PFAL. He used this as "proof" of his great committment and sacrifice to God. "I gave my EYE...what are YOU willing to give???" Even up to his death, he NEVER changed his teaching on cancer, which remained a teaching which caused others to suffer needlessly. The reason for his death was COMPLETELY covered up. It was claimed-by more than one person in leadership- that he "just stopped believing", or "believed to stop living" or "put his face to the wall" and that he could have changed his mind and chosen to live at any point. All these reasons were never called "spiritual suicide"-which, technically, they WERE. They were used to shift the blame for his death OFF his indulged vices of alcohol and tobacco, OFF his lack of self-control, OFF his fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and onto the PEOPLE- leadership or peons. "He would have chosen to live if you'd been faithful!" The fiction of VPW as a super-believer was so complete that even Howard Allen-who had "seen the man behind the curtain", who knew of the addictions to alcohol and tobacco- voluntarily accepted blame for VPW's death when he heard this. To this day, some people absolutely REFUSE to accept VPW died of cancer (although his death certificate is publically available and easy to find online), and some refuse to let go of the "he could have lived, had he wanted" doctrine as well.

For one, I still care. I'm slowly trying to compile WHAT happened, and WHEN it happened. So, anything with dates or details is appreciated. I'm given to understand a lot of people appreciate this stuff but don't say so as well. So, there's others also.

I'd like to request that you guys either move this thread to Doctrinal so you can more formally attack Mark, or start a NEW thread in Doctrinal so you can more formally attack Mark.

The answer IS "Stripes". In the second scene, his girlfriend's leaving him, and one of her complaints is that he sits around all day "listening to those stupid Tito Puente albums!" or something like that. John Winger's response was what I quoted. (To tell the truth, I forgot that scene was there until someone reminded me-someone who, for some reason, never heard of Tito Puente.) ======= I don't recognize your movie yet.

Ok, let's see.... Continuing on from vpw's death, between 1985-1988 there were a few events. -Schoenheit's Adultery paper -Passing of the Patriarch presented -a bunch of top guys- Ra1** Dub0v**y and J0hn Ly*n included- leave was this when the "fog years" happened? 1989- lcm draws his line in the sand, demanding allegiance. 80% of the current membership leaves, including much of the Limb leaders and Corps And what happened when in the 1990's?