WordWolf

Oh, that's easy! They taught BOTH at DIFFERENT TIMES! That way, an innocent hears the SECOND one, and says "they never taught women were to prostitute themselves to the mog" and hardcore apologists could say "Those of you who heard this and still thought they taught the other thing are lying or mistaken. How COULD they teach ONE thing and the OPPOSITE?" Worked pretty effectively, too. Some people are a decade out or more and still saying it.

*sets up the aluminum pole* I think we should go to the Feats of Strength, since we specialize in the Airing of Greivances already....

" 'Bah, humbug!' No, that's too strong 'Cause it is my favourite holiday But all this year's been a busy blur Don't think I have the energy." "Now the calendar's just one page And, of course, I am excited Tonight's the night, but I've set my mind Not to do too much about it. Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! But I think I'll miss this one this year."

"Sabrina". If memory serves, that was Harrison Ford and Greg Kinnear's characters sparring.

"Now the calendar's just one page And, of course, I am excited Tonight's the night, but I've set my mind Not to do too much about it."

That's "Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer". :) I heard they made a cartoon about that. That's just wrong....

I've heard she's doing quite well for herself, thank you. And appreciates the kind thoughts.

A lot of people don't know what's important about "The Integrity of your word". One answer is here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm

I feel a discussion of plagiarism of pfal is incomplete without this thread.....

There are some things we know for a fact. We DO know that there were several people who took BG Leonard's CTC class the FIRST time when vpw took it the SECOND time. We know that THREE MONTHS LATER, vpw taught what he told the new students was "his" "pfal" class which was 100% composed of Leonard's CTC class. The people who attended the CTC class HAD to know it was EXACTLY the same class they had just attended, being taught now. They HAD to know it was wrong for him to tell them it was "his" class. They HAD to know it was wrong for him to omit ALL references to Leonard and the REAL class. They didn't stop him. ===== That much, we KNOW. WHY did they not stop him? Was it fear? Greed? Pride? We can only speculate. If I were to speculate, I would say it was MISPLACED LOYALTY. They felt that, somehow, he was EXEMPT from the rules of Christian conduct, exempt from the laws of the US. They felt that he was ABOVE the law, that he was too important for the law to apply to him, that the stakes were high enough to justify criminal actions if he said so. ======== Further speculation- WHY would they have such misplaced loyalty to him? I would speculate that he used the SAME techniques THEN that he used LATER on a larger scale. vpw pretended that all the content of pfal, version 1.0 was his, when it was entirely Leonard's. Before THIS, vpw had encountered JE Stiles, who spent a few HOURS with him, preparing vpw to speak in tongues, and directing him through it. Stiles did a GREAT job. vpw's description, 20 years LATER, was very detailed and contained all the same elements vpw used later in sessions 10-12 of pfal. Stiles taught this no-strings-attached, then left. vpw's style was to attach this to pfal, thus charging money for it AND connecting pfal with it, and thus himself, whom HE called THE Teacher. Between the taped class and the CTC class, people gave him loyalty. Based on his techniques, and based on what we know of his character, and-based on the fact that he could recite the details of the Stiles incident in GREAT detail later- I'd say that he went thru this with each of THEM, and told EACH of them that this was from HIM, and not a transliteration of what he was told by STILES. I don't have PROOF-neither eyewitnesses nor a confession. However, it is a theory that does fit the facts AND his established behaviour. That's the best I can do short of one or the other.

Well, this was hardly a public, "official" statement. vpw carefully chose who he said this to. A number of the top people heard him, a smaller number was complicit in some degree, even fewer did it. Of course that "few people" was FAR too many. Rozilla herself was one of the people "complicit" in that she helped vpw get ahold of the women. How vpw acted on this HIMSELF was varied. The most basic way he did this was on-grounds. He had a home, he had an office, and he had a camper "office" set up for sleeping. He had arranged a place for sleeping when his house was RIGHT THERE. (AND he could have driven one of the golf carts around if he thought it was too far, and he considered one of the carts "MY STUFF.") vpw had all corps applicants submit an autobiographical (life-story) report called "from birth to the corps." Many people NOW think that he read these reports and singled out reports of women who had suffered sexual abuse in the past. They think this because it is known that previous sexual victims are often easier for other sexual predators to victimize later. They also think this because the results WERE that the women who reported this in their reports WERE consistently primary targets for his sexual predation. So, women were told they were on-grounds to be their best for God, and this man had a special connection to God (God spoke to him and gave him imaginary snow-twice and so on), and thus was a trustworthy Christian and NOT a sexual predator. Then, a number of "odd coincidences" would happen. A woman would be singled out coincidentally, and be called into vpw's camper. One of a number of things would happen then, but the ultimate goal was for vpw to rape them. A number showed reluctance or ran out. So, he refined his technique. He started serving drugged drinks to women, and they started passing out alone with him in the room, and waking up with that disgusting man doing disgusting things. There were other scenarios, but that was the MOST COMMON. When he was on the road, it was different. ======== Now then, he also had "cleanup crews." Some people existed on staff- or as Region or Limb leaders or their wives- who would look out for his victims, and stop them from talking. Those who seemed ready to talk despite that were kicked out of twi IMMEDIATELY-including off-grounds if they were ON grounds- and IMMEDIATELY her reputation was savaged. Everyone was told they were "possessed" and no one was to ever contact her or communicate with her in any way. That having been said, despite victims having come forth, and some people having witnessed the "cleanup crew" in operation in progress, there are STILL some people who will claim it's all a lie. Of course, this, in and of itself, does not affect his doctrine. HOWEVER, given his record of self-serving doctrine-- like "all the women in the kingdom belong to the king", "no condemnation", teaching AGAINST the tithe when he was in a denomination but teaching FOR the tithe when the money was coming to him, it DOES mean that each doctrine SHOULD be examined for self-interest. Further, the premeditated nature of what he did (he had to plan a lot to arrange it) indicates he lacks the proper character to serve in ANY capacity among Christians OR of trust of any kind. THAT doesn't affect his doctrine- but I don't respect conmen and rapists, and I don't heed their doctrine. I can't trust him when he opens his mouth. Sometimes he MIGHT speak truth, but I'd rather get truth from a RELIABLE source.

Hello, powerfilled and marypoppins. Since someone brought it up (and you missed it), here's a direct link to a thread that the staff felt was important enough to make into a "sticky"/"pinned" topic. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913 As you may know, when first encountering internet messageboards, it is a very good idea to read the "sticky"/"pinned" topics before ever making your first post. Those are marked as important enough to read FIRST.

Let me say it again slower. The brochure you showed said "A lifetime of CHRISTIAN SERVICE." skyrider said they never wrote "A lifetime of TWI SERVICE." You said the brochure saying a lifetime of "CHRISTIAN SERVICE" was proof they had printed brochures of a lifetime of "TWI SERVICE". They both have the words" "A lifetime of" and "service" in common. They differ critically in one word. The brochures said they serve GOD. The announcement skyrider got- which was on NONE of the written and legally-binding agreements- was for a "lifetime of TWI service." See, one says "God", one says "TWI", see? I pointed out any Christian can make a committment to serve GOD. Corps seemed to be trying to learn things from twi with the intention of serving GOD for a lifetime. One of them objected, months LATER, to hearing that he'd signed on to serve "TWI" for a LIFETIME. Not "serve God while IN twi", "SERVE TWI." See, that's a small, but critical difference. People have been killed over less critical differences. So, 100 brochures saying "a lifetime of Christian service" show a laudable goal to ALL Christians. "A lifetime of TWI service" does-and should- raise an eyebrow like a brochure saying "A lifetime of Roman Catholic service" would, or "A lifetime of CES service" or "A lifetime of CFF service" would. The phrase "TWI service" is not legally the same as "Christian service". If someone (as you seem to have done) CONFUSES one for the other, that STILL does not make them legally the same. I love you as my brother in Christ, but those 2 terms are not synonymous. twi wanted people to THINK they are synonymous, but twi, as you know, was wrong in many, many, many things.

(Responding to my note that the phrase "corps vet" coexisted with "wow vet" but was phased out.) I can tell you that Igotout and Simonzelotes are posters here who bought official "corps vet" t-shirts once they completed their tours of duty in the way corps. You'll have to ask THEM for specifics. Please ask them to POST about it, since I expect someone to later claim there WERE no such shirts.

Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Act I, Scene I. "How strange! You-Know-Who's dead body was found right next to little Harry Potter!" ============== Or Act I, Scene I. "What's all the celebrating about?" "Have you heard? You-Know-Who's dead! James Potter and Sirius Black caught him in a crossfire! The Ministry's still examining his body." ============== Not as short. "Fellowship of the Ring", at the Council in Rivendell of all the races on Middle-Earth. "What will we do with the ring?" "Gandalf will hitch a ride on Gwahir, the Wind Lord (that big bird.) He'll carry the thing in a sack, and release the sack once they're over Mount Doom!" "All right then! If all goes well, we can defeat Sauron before dinnertime!"

WhiteDove showed a brochure with a title about "A Lifetime of Christian Service." Seems someone needs to explain this again, and I'm in the mood. ================ "ONCE a Marine, ALWAYS a Marine." "Semper fidelis" ("Always Faithful.") Does that mean that a Marine spends the rest of his life being assigned battlefields by the US government? Of course NOT. He follows orders for his TOUR OF DUTY (or tourS of duty.) Then he is discharged and returns to civilian life. Is he still a Marine? Yes. But he's "retired" from "active duty". He is a VETERAN. He takes the training and experiences he learned in the Marines, and applies some of it to daily life, and he generally upholds their principles for much or all of his life. That's what "ONCE a Marine, ALWAYS a Marine" means. ===== Now, people entering the Way Corps were entering for a period of training, after which they would choose to accept assignents for a time, or not accept them. Their commitment to serving God would remain, and their training would remain. They would apply that in their everyday lives. That's why, for a time, the expression "corps vet" coexisted with "wow vet." A wow made a commitment to travel and speak for ONE year, and then he went home. He didn't move EVERY year. Corps entered the program with the intention and stated goal of learning things they would apply the rest of their lives. They never agreed-in writing or any other way-to lifelong servitude to twi. However, once they were in for several months, they were told that was what they had signed up for. (Skyrider mentioned that.) ====== In short, "a lifetime of Christian service" is one thing. ANY Christian can make such a commitment to God, ANYTIME. "A lifetime commitment to serve twi" is something else entirely...

[WordWolf in brackets/boldface.] ==================== That was fast. Mike couldn't even go 24 hours without trying to rewrite his post history. "Filibustering at its worst" and "In the US Senate they call it filibustering" were rewritten into "It's LIKE filibustering" and "simile." "To say that it IS filibustering is to use the stronger figure, metaphor." Either Mike can't tell that he's rewriting, which means he's out of touch with reality, OR Mike is deliberately lying thru his teeth, which means NOTHING he posts can be trusted, OR Mike lacks even a BASIC understanding of Figures of Speech. If Mike lacks even a BASIC understanding of Figures of Speech, he lacks a BASIC understanding of one of the most CRITICAL components of pfal- "Figures of Speech". If Mike lacks THAT, he has no business even PRETENDING he knows what's in the class/books. Readers may take their pick.....

His avatar is from "Star Wars Episode III-Revenge of the Sith". It's a pic of Darth Vader once he became a Sith Lord, but before he wore the famous black armour.

Ok, here's what I said. [twi was set up from the top bosses. The top bosses decided what to do. The top bosses set up a marketing scheme. The top boss himself ripped off quality work from others, slapped a new label on it, and claimed it was HIS work and it was the result of his special connection with God since he was so special. Based on THIS cornerstone deception, he built the organization of twi. He and a handful of others knew this was all wrong, and did it anyway. They were bad men doing bad things. Then genuine godly people like Heefner and Doop and many others came along. They were tricked into thinking he had a special connection with God and that all that was HIS work when it wasn't. So, they recruited people into his organization. Were they participants with less than perfect motives? NO, THEY had completely PURE motives. Does that mean everyone had pure motives? NO, the Lords over God's Heritage were bad men. THOSE men did not have good motives. Believers here and there tried to bless others. The ORGANIZATION tried to get their money. Was that simple enough? I'm insulting the tiny handful at the TOP who were involved for year and years, not the vast majority BELOW them...] ======== So, Oldiesman skipped most of what I said, and commented on this comment: [He and a handful of others knew this was all wrong, and did it anyway. They were bad men doing bad things.] Oldies' reply: "WordWolf, that is your distorted, corrupted, one-sided, evil-surmising, tunnel-vision view of things that I do not share with you. I guess you really must think that you are God, the Searcher of all hearts?" So, I reply to this... [No, Oldies, I still don't think I'm God nor the Searcher of all hearts. I AM able to tell what's in the heart of someone based on their ACTIONS, and it is their ACTIONS I judge. As to the long list of insults to my view of things, let's see who is tracking reality properly. I said "twi was set up from the top bosses. The top bosses decided what to do." That, I expect, is "by definition" and is not in dispute. "The top bosses set up a marketing scheme." pfal was specifically set up as a business. Everyone was expected to pay RETAIL for pfal and take it, live or later on tape. All twig members were expected to be graduates of all the classes within a reasonable time after they were 'made available'. All twig members were expected to own all the twi-produced books within a reasonable time after they were 'made available.' (And charged RETAIL for.) All twig members were expected to pay a MINIMUM of 10% of their income-the tithe- and later, to 'abundantly share' above that. Have you EVER heard of any OTHER group that even SUGGESTED giving them ALL your money beyond survival? twi had a NAME for it, which means they had a DOCTRINE for it. That they did this is now largely a matter of public record. That it is wrong is evident to most unbiased people. That they KNEW what they were doing should not really be under dispute. They were adults and made adult decisions regarding money, policy, and so on, and arranged policy to maximize MONEY. That this is WRONG should really not be news to a Christian. That THEY knew it was wrong should also not be news. They chose to do things they knew to be bad. Therefore, 'bad men doing bad things.] So far, looks like I have a case supporting my claims. So far, looks like Oldies has a tantrum and some insults "supporting" his claims. ========= I also said this: ["The top boss himself ripped off quality work from others, slapped a new label on it, and claimed it was HIS work and it was the result of his special connection with God since he was so special. Based on THIS cornerstone deception, he built the organization of twi."] Oldies replied: "Balderdash. Whether or not VP had a special connection with God, VP told us that his stuff was not original, so you are just blowing smoke again." ====== So, I reply again.... [vpw's "ministry" was totally unremarkable until he took BG Leonard's CTC class twice, the second time, with several other people taking it the first time. Three months later, vpw told BG Leonard he would be running his (BG Leonard's) class for his congregation once on a one-time basis, getting BG Leonard's permission to do so. vpw sent Leonard a photograph of the graduating class for his photo album. Meanwhile, that SAME class, he told the STUDENTS that this was his OWN class on "Power for Abundant Living." He NEVER announced "this is BG Leonard's class which I'm just reciting because videotapes haven't been invented yet." Its contents were 100% Leonard's class from 3 months ago. Over time, he added material from books by JE Stiles and EW Bullinger. At no point did he actually say "this material on the holy spirit field, it is a compilation of the work of Leonard, Stiles, and Bullinger, which I have done my best to improve upon." If he had said exactly that, I would have NO complaint of this type. Anyone reading the introduction/preface to the Orange or White Books would read an intro saying vpw found other Christians useless in his searches for knowledge, and he made these "discoveries" on his own. Compared to all of that, a few off-the-cuff comments that what he did wasn't original (rather than cite very SPECIFIC sourcebooks and one class) hardly counts. It SUGGESTS he picked up things here and there, not entire chapters and sessions from a very few number of sources. Since we've discussed the plagiarism issue for months and months, it is disingenuous-to say the least-to pretend ignorance of the SPECIFIC charges. Given that there are rather specific specifics, especially the "genesis" of the first pfal class (plagiarizing 100% of Leonard's class, changing only the teacher and class name), it should be obvious to most people (other than Oldies) that this is far more than "blowing smoke", it would have been an open-and-shut case if Leonard had exercised his legal options rather than letting it go. ============= Again, my comments on Heefner and Doop (and many, many others) were: "Then genuine, godly people like Heefner and Doop and many others came along. They were tricked into thinking he had a special connection with God and that all that was HIS work when it wasn't. So they recruited people into his organization. Were they participants with less than perfect motives? NO, THEY had completely PURE motives. Believers here and there tried to bless others."] Oldies reply to this? "Did it ever occur to you that maybe folks like Heefner and Doop and so many others who recruited folks into twi, did it not because of VP's perceived special connection with God, or because they thought VP was so great, or even because of VP AT ALL; but because they honestly wanted folks to be blessed and come to a greater knowledge of the truth, just like they had?" Now, anyone ELSE who read my comments should have no need of a reply. They "tried to bless others", they "had pure motives", they were "genuine, godly people." Obviously, the reason they fell for vp's deception WAS that they wanted to serve God the best they could. They were tricked into thinking that was with vpw's class. (DUUUUUUUUHHHH.)] Oldies continued: "Lots of ex-twi folks bear witness to the fact that they learned many truths in twi, and wanted to share them." [DUUUUHHH. Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger knew their stuff. If the CONTENT wasn't good, the deception would have fooled nobody.] "Nothing wrong with that..." [somebody said there WAS? THEY were fine. Might try reading my posts...] "It is an insult to the entire family of God, who wanted to move the Word over the world and bless folks with the word of God, whether they were on the BOT, or a leaf on the tree." [Actually, what's an insult to them is that you continually lump in those with godly intentions doing the best they can, with the handful who acted for filthy lucre's sake. THAT's a "universal blanket insult."] ================ Of course, all of the name-calling is to distract from this:

[since you brought up some of your previous statements, and "clearing up" what you meant, What DID you mean by "When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it." We know you were actually SERIOUS and not joking, because when someone asked "So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand?" you responded with "Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once." So, go ahead, "clear the air." What did you mean when you (totally) seriously said that "Christ in his glory will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it"? While we're at it, you might want to explain "Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL. He told me so." I figure the answer for one is probably related to the answer for the other. Rather than just presume that, I'll ask you outright-again-to speak plainly. So far, all good-faith attempts to get plain answers have been met with obfuscations and smokescreens, but you MIGHT give a straight answer. ]

[And it's STILL wrong.] [shame on you for distorting what I said.I never impugned the MOTIVES of the candidates, nor did Groucho. Shame on you for CONTINUING to distort what I said after I spelled out how you DISTORTED it AGAIN. Shame on you for taking attention off the ones who DID such things-running the programs- and slapping such a label on their well-meaning victims-the candidates.] BINGO. THERE we have it. THERE's the reason for the complete distortion of what was said. Oldies spent time in the wow program, Oldies spent time in twi, and was unwittingly engaged in their programs of deceit, MLM and money-grubbing. Oldies never MEANT to do anything other than glorify God, but twi deceived him and he ended up doing something else. Rather than blame THEM for their deceit, and living wiser and warier, Oldies refuses to admit there was ever any problem- which means Oldies NEVER did anything less than pristine. Bravo, Oldies! You've succeeded in keeping white gloves spotless while blood spattered on the others....] [And yet, when we DO speak of what we've seen, and discussed same, Oldies CAN'T leave that ALONE....]

[WordWolf in brackets again...]

Everything TWI did WAS for the money, or something to GET the money. (Unless it was for the horizontal-mambo for the mog, or alcohol or tobacco for him.) Exploitation has been demonstrated and explained. The bait-and-switch was also demonstrated and explained. He never said people got involved so they could shake people down. (You're not reading "what is written".) People joined with good intentions, and were indoctrinated and trained to shake people down for money. "Wholesale false accusations", right.... Don't you get tired of continually whitewashing the entire history of twi when people are discussing personal experience?

I noticed that you switched topics on us.... We were discussing how twi tought that people not born again are "spiritual empties", and not worth consideration. I noticed you skipped over my post on this. So, since you missed it, here it is again. (You're welcome.)