WordWolf

I'd like to request that you guys either move this thread to Doctrinal so you can more formally attack Mark, or start a NEW thread in Doctrinal so you can more formally attack Mark.

The answer IS "Stripes". In the second scene, his girlfriend's leaving him, and one of her complaints is that he sits around all day "listening to those stupid Tito Puente albums!" or something like that. John Winger's response was what I quoted. (To tell the truth, I forgot that scene was there until someone reminded me-someone who, for some reason, never heard of Tito Puente.) ======= I don't recognize your movie yet.

Ok, let's see.... Continuing on from vpw's death, between 1985-1988 there were a few events. -Schoenheit's Adultery paper -Passing of the Patriarch presented -a bunch of top guys- Ra1** Dub0v**y and J0hn Ly*n included- leave was this when the "fog years" happened? 1989- lcm draws his line in the sand, demanding allegiance. 80% of the current membership leaves, including much of the Limb leaders and Corps And what happened when in the 1990's?

shazdancer: From TWI's own memorial brochure, made available at the Rock of Ages, 1985: -Dec. 31, 1916 VPW born -July 2, 1937 Wierwille marries Dorothea Kipp (ages 20 and 21)<LI> BA from Lakeland College -1940 Donald born -1941 Bachelor of Theology from Lakeland; Masters from Princeton Theological; starts first pastorate (July); ordained (July 29) -1942 Karen born; "snow on the gas pumps" (early fall); first radio broadcast (Oct. 3) -1944 second pastorate; Mary Ellen born -1947 Chimes Hour Youth Caravan -1948 Pikes Peak "doctorate -1951 VPW visits missionaries in Honduras; VPW led into tongues by J. E. Stiles -1953 first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, first PFAL class -1954 Pillai takes PFAL, teaches Orientalisms -1955 JP born (July); ministry becomes The Way, Inc. September-April, -1955-56 Wierwilles (minus JP) travel to Great Britain, Europe, India, and the Bible Lands Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India published -1957 Sara born (July); VPW resigns from denomination ======= shazdancer': -1961 The Way, Inc. moves to the Wierwille farm -1962 first summer school in the new BRC -1967 Are the Dead Alive Now? published; PFAL filmed -1968 VPW goes to Haight-Ashbury -1969 first Way Corps -1971 WOW ambassador program begins; the PFAL book and Vols 1-3 are published -1974 Way C of E bought -1975 Jesus Christ is Not God published -1976 Rome City and Gunnison campuses bought -1977 Live PFAL taught at Ball State U.; HEW and HRA installed as new BOT; Vol. 4 published -1978 LEAD property bought -1979 Advanced Class '79 -1980 Jesus Christ our Passover published -1982 Fortieth Anniversary celebration; LCM installed as new president; Jesus Christ our Promised Seed published -1984 live PFAL in Gunnison; Gartmore dedicated -1985 WOW Auditorium opens; Vol. 5 published; VPW dies May 20, age 68 "Mike": An addendum to the above list: the item that reads "WOW ambassador program begins; the PFAL book and Vols 1-3 are published" occured in 1971. "shazdancer": I noticed a couple of things just from looking at the dates: 1.) Wierwille was only 24 years old when he started as a pastor. Then after only one year, he is disillusioned about not being able to help people (according to the pamphlet). He spends one whole summer studying the Bible after Rosalind Rinker's challenge, then sees snow on the gas pumps. Hmm... sounds more like lazy than revelation! 2.) Mrs. Wierwille had given birth just two months before VPW took her and the older children to India and elsewhere for a year. She should barely have recovered from the birth. They left JP with relatives for the baby's crucial first year of life. Not exactly a sterling example of Christian parenting. 3.) The 40th Anniversary celebration was not for the 40th year of The Way, nor of PFAL. It was 40 years since the snow on the gas pumps story supposedly happened. (Clarification by Catcup -- TWI counts its anniversary from the first Vesper Chimes Hour radio broadcast, also in 1942, also 11 years before the first PFAL Class. Thanks, Catcup!) Sure makes it sound like TWI was well-established to say it that way, though, huh? =========== Sites with some history of twi... http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm http://www.watchman.org/profile/waypro.htm http://www.excultworld.com/twi.htm

Ok, THIS was the thread I was looking for.

Hm. I didn't find the post I was LOOKING for...

Not to mention, if you tried that defense in court when sued on copyright violation, (name-dropping and casually mentioning people who influenced you), the case would be open-and-shut, and you'd SO lose. Our JUNIOR high school students know this. Our HIGH SCHOOL students know this. Our COLLEGE students know this. Our MASTERS candidates know this. Our DOCTORS candidates know this. vpw KNEW it was a crime. He learned that in high school, college, and when he went for his Masters. He chose to do this anyway, AND to promptly slap copyright notices on all "his" books, to complete the hypocrasy.

AFAIK, that began changing with Vatican II. I was raised Roman Catholic and served as an altar boy. I have NEVER attended a mass that was given in Latin. And I had an EXCELLENT attendance record as a kid. (52 Sundays of the year, plus High Holy Days, plus a few more here and there when parochial school classes attended together.) And yes, my religious education was much as described here, with form taught, but no education as to what and why. It was mechanical and sterile. If that was representative of ALL Roman Catholics I know, I'd be advocating for everyone I know to leave it posthaste.

Yes, that's how they announced it publicly. ==== I'll add a few comments to the already-fairly-complete picture. One poster here posted once that they interacted with vpw in the last 24 hours of his life, and that he seemed to be sincere when he was wondering something over and over. Supposedly, he was trying to figure out where he blew it in his life that he wasn't able to believe for healing. Either he was still putting on a show, or he honestly didn't think the lives he ruined would have any spiritual impact. (Probably BOTH.) I'd also like to mention the technical reasons for his early death. He had cancer in his eye and cancer in his liver. It's been claimed-by twi and by posters here- that he got cancer in his eye from the bright lights of pfal, so his death was our fault because he filmed it for us. Now, I'd believe that he sensitized his eyes in filming. However, we know what the most common carcinogens are (we know what you usually would get cancer from.) Bright lights don't cause cancer- unless you're using an ULTRAVIOLET spotlight. vpw COULD have used those lights until he was driven blind from their brightness, and he STILL would not have gotten cancer from them. What does cause cancer? The most common cancer-causing agent is TOBACCO-cigars, cigarettes. If you're around "second-hand smoke" enough, you can get lung cancer. Sigmund Freud needed surgery to his mouth to remove cancerous tissue that resulted from HIS cigars. vpw smoked cigars. vpw smoked cigarettes. vpw smoked cigars and cigarettes. vpw smoked cigars and cigarettes A LOT. To call the man a chain-smoker is to understate the amount of smoking he did. The eye is a fantastic organ, but it has very sensitive tissues. It's vulnerable to more than most external tissue. So, if it's continually exposed to carcinogens in the air, it should be no surprise it got cancer. It also should not surprise anyone that one eye got more cancer. That's because exposure will not be uniform. People exhale smoke in a particular direction. It would not have to say anything about the eye that caught the cancer. Supposedly, he got cancer in his eye, and it spread to his liver, and then he degenerated and died pretty young. This ALSO makes sense. vpw drank alcoholic beverages. vpw drank alcoholic beverages a LOT. vpw was usually seen with either a cigar/cigarette in his hand or mouth, or a drink in his hand, or both. vpw would often start drinking VERY EARLY in the day (his "coffee mug" didn't hold "coffee", or at least, ONLY coffee.) He would KEEP drinking. Drambuie seemed to be his most common drink. Now, frequent, persistent drinking damages the liver. So, the entire time he was drinking, he was injuring his liver, weakening it. So, when it was exposed to cancer, it had NO ability to fight it off. So, his vices of alcohol and tobacco slowly poisoned and weakened his body, eventually killing him. Please note that vpw was VERY vocal about people having "discipline" and self-control, and the entire time, he was addicted to tobacco and alcohol. (Which, of course, shows a lack of SELF-discipline.) So, his vices slowly killed him, as I see it.

If I miss any more like that last one, I'll have to hand in my membership card... And I'm sure this one isn't the Alan Parsons Project, since he wouldnt include the title in the clue.

"We're Americans. With a capital 'A', huh? And do you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts. See? His nose is cold."

Ok. We took a look at vpw's own "speaking in tongues" experience in the "Way:Living in Wonderland" thread. I think it wasn't so much to help their believing, but to do something Stiles NEVER did with him. Stiles built his believing and walked him through speaking in tongues, then left and let vpw get on with his life. I think vpw had a special experience with God (speaking in tongues), and decided he'd try to slap a product label on it. Where others would lead Christians to speak in tongues, vpw would tie speaking in tongues to his organization, so you'd have to be on your way "in" to speak in tongues. People were actively discouraged from speaking in tongues before Session 12. They HAD TO connect speaking in tongues with PFAL, they HAD to. That made them dependent upon PFAL, and the organization that ran PFAL. I was back in the other thread. :) Right the first time, Roy! vpw wanted to be thought of as THE leader, which means he had to be seen as THE Teacher, THE Christian, the Most Special Christian. 'All other churches are doo-doo, only this one is good!' He also had to isolate the young and impressionable from OTHER Christians, so they could never see that some were quite good. To the STUDENT, yes.But vpw didn't really care about the individual STUDENT, so long as he had MOST of them. They were interchangeable and DISPOSABLE, even in the Way Corps. So, he got what he wanted. You've got it. Sadly, I think we all did.It's normal for someone to get excited and accidentally push, but vpw WANTED us to push. vpw HATED the Roman Catholic Church (as did lcm). He was sometimes vicious with their stuff back when he was with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and he didn't "lighten up" when he ran his own show. Yes, and that was his PLAN. He WANTED it that way. I learned a lot, myself, in our examination of "his" book, "the Way:Living in Love."

Is Rita Skeeter in there, or were all her scenes left out of the script?

Statutory rape, as defined in "the Legal Dictionary": "sexual intercourse with a female below the legal age of consent, but above the age of a child, even if the female gave her consent, did not resist and/or mutually participated." Yep-sex with multiple 14 and 15 year olds is statutory rape. The only possible way to avoid this being a felony is to escape ONE count of this crime by obtaining PRIOR JUDICIAL PERMISSION and MARRYING that ONE minor. Sex between two individuals who have obtained a legal marriage license is not a crime. If he tried to escape ALL counts of STATUTORY RAPE, he would need PRIOR JUDICIAL CONSENT to marry EACH girl. As we know, judicial consent is not granted for the comission of a crime, and marrying more than one spouse is not legal in the US. Koresh did NOT obtain PRIOR JUDICIAL PERMISSION, so he committed multiple acts of STATUTORY RAPE. STATUTORY RAPE all by itself is a felony.Koresh had sex with more than one girl aged 14-15. Each such act was STATUTORY RAPE. Amazing how you're unable to comprehend this. The boiling point of water is 212 degrees Farenheit. So what? We're not talking about the FBI,we're talking about a MULTIPLE ACCOUNT RAPIST. Only YOU keep bringing up a supposed justification to commit murder. Then again, you refuse to call statutory rape what it is. That's not from any of our posts. Please do not invent straw men when supposedly discussing with us. You're ineligible for a marriage license at the age of 14 or 15, unless the COURT has reviewed your situation, and agreed you're a special exemption and can give informed consent, despite being legally a minor. Ever try entering into a legal contract with a minor? It won't work. Contract law specifies minors are legally unable to enter into contracts, or give informed consent to enter into contracts. (A contract is also voided if any of the parties are insane, since the insane are unable to give informed consent. That's in every contract-that's the sanity clause.) They DON'T allow that.The County Clerk of ANY county would disallow it. He would NOT issue a license, which is the legally-binding portion of a marriage. I posted a link to the County Clerk of Dallas' website, where this is spelled out. I posted a link to a judgement by the Texas Attorney General-the state's highest law officer, where he EXPLAINS all this. I recommend actually reading the linked sites and trying to understand them.

They did not BELIEVE it was sick. That made it no less sick, no less wrong, no less illegal. The guys in NAMBLA who want to have sex with little boys, they don't WANT to "break the law", they just want to have sex with little boys. They've constructed a sub-culture where it is permissible and acceptable to have sex with little boys. According to NAMBLA, the little boys would not be harmed if the adult males had sex with them. According to NAMBLA, they have no ill will towards the little boys and wish only good things for them. So, according to YOUR logic, a NAMBLA guy with "no criminal intent" who has sex with a little boy can't be charged with a crime. He claims he has not harmed the little boy, he has no "criminal intent", he claims the little boy has BENEFITTED from the experience and consented and so on. By YOUR logic, this makes what he did fine. By the laws of ALL 50 United States, that NAMBLA guy committed a felony, and will go to jail. (Where he will face other criminals who view child molestors as the lowest of the low-even to THEM they are reprehensible.) When he comes out of jail, entire communities would have to be notified of his whereabouts, in order to alert the parents that their little boys face an imminent danger. If John Law catches you in Texas having sex with a little boy, you WILL go to jail, you WILL be charged with a felony, and you WILL serve a sentence behind bars. If John Law catches you in Texas having sex with 2 15-year old females (the minimum possible scenario with Koresh), you WILL go to jail, and you WILL be charged with a felony, and you WILL serve a sentence behind bars. We're still discussing the STATUTORY RAPE COMMITTED by Koresh when he had sex with 14 and 15 year olds.

Nice site. It's NOT a an official site of the government of the state of Texas. As that site's disclaimer says, it is "not a substitute for personal legal advice from an attorney." According to their "Conditions of Use" disclaimer, "FreeAdvice is a legal publisher, and neither a law firm, nor a substitute for an attorney's advice, nor a legal referral service. By using FreeAdvice...you are agreeing that under no circumstances will the Company, its affiliates, or any lawyer listed on either site be responsible for (1) any information contained on or omitted from the site (2) any person's reliance on any such information, whether or not the information is correct, current or complete (3) the consequences of any action you or any other person takes or fails to take, whether or not based on information provided by or as a result of the use of the sites." In short, they're not legal experts and offer no guarantee ANY of their site's contents are accurate. But THIS is the site you picked to document your side. I used several. If you look, you'll see that I cited the official site for the Dallas County Clerk's Office. That's an official county in Texas. Marriages are not legal or recognized without a marriage license. I linked the page giving the requirements for obtaining a marriage license in Dallas County, which is bound by ALL the same requirements as the rest of the state. (Each county does NOT have different license requirements.) What are the license requirements? "JUDICIAL APPROVAL IS REQUIRED FOR ANY MARRIAGE UNDER 16. INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE 16 AND 17 MUST HAVE JUDICIAL APPROVAL OR PARENTAL CONSENT." In other words, an AUTHORITATIVE site said you were wrong, and an UNauthoritative site said you were right. (There's no DISCLAIMER on the site of the County Clerk's office.) So, marriages of a man to a 14 or 15-year old in Texas without PRIOR JUDICIAL APPROVAL are invalid, and they're unable to get married. Sex between an adult and a 14- or 15-year old minor in Texas with whom they are not married is STATUTORY RAPE. STATUTORY RAPE is the same as RAPE in regards to laws and sentencing. Furthermore, Koresh would be unable to legally obtain a marriage license for all of his sex partners. The state of Texas would issue ONE license at MOST. (It would not issue one for him and a 14-year old without PRIOR JUDICIAL APPROVAL.) Therefore, by definition, if he had sex with 2 or more girls of age 14 or 15, it would be impossible under ANY provision under Texas law (even if he DID get judicial approval for ONE) to avoid the charge of STATUTORY RAPE. It was immoral of him to exploit the office of leader to trick his congregation's women into having sex with him. Based on violations of fiduciary trust, some of the adults may have sued him in civil court, and may have won. It was both IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL for Koresh to have sex with 14-and 15-year olds. In the eyes of the law, a 14 or 15-year old is unable to give INFORMED CONSENT, which is why any exceptions would need prior review and approval by a judge (who is both a legal expert and holds the office of an executor of the law.) The state does acknowledge that it is possible that someone may find an exception where this may apply. It's obvious you were unable to understand the explanation given by the TEXAS STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL- which I linked- which explained WHY this is set up in this fashion. This is no surprise. If the sheriff is unaware Koresh is having sex with 14-year olds, he can't claim KoreshIS. Since the parents were hoodwinked, and the teens had diminished capacity due to age, no one had filed a report of STATUTORY RAPE. With no report filed, I don't expect the sheriff to just somehow know Koresh COMMITTED STATUTORY RAPE. The lack of a filed report does not mean that a crime has not occurred- just that an investigation has not begun since you can't investigate a crime you've never heard was committed, nor suspect happened. If you are murdered and no one ever finds the body (you just disappear), the murdered STILL committed a murder, which is a felony. If you are raped and never report it, you were still the victim of a felony. I don't need to watch a film to know that an adult male having sex with 14 or 15 year oldS in Texas is COMMITTING STATUTORY RAPE. Why did you not even suspect this, and why do you even question this? Fine. You're a supposedly healthy person, who is claiming that a felony was not a crime, and minors who were the victims of felonies were not victims of a crime, and you've claimed that sex with underage partners is not a crime in Texas. You've stopped short of literally ADVOCATING it as far as I see. Was that a lapse, or did I miss it, or would you like to claim 'adults SHOULD have sex with minors in Texas' and get this over with? For a supposedly-healthy person, you're already advocating FOR someone who committed statutory rape. If you had sex with a 14-year old in the US with whom you were not married, who was 1/2 your age, and she gave full consent in WRITING and VIDEO ahead of time, you'd still go to JAIL for "STATUTORY RAPE". That's a CRIME in the US. Don't you know what the term "jailbait" is? The "culture" of the Branch Davidians was the US culture. Waco is in TEXAS. That's in the US. They get tv and radio-the same channels as the rest of us. Etc, etc. Further, if you married someone, then had sex with a minor with whom you are not married, that's "STATUTORY RAPE" and ILLEGAL in this country. Further, if you married more than one minor, that's "BIGAMY" and ILLEGAL in this country. David Koresh broke the LETTER of the law with his boinking the women of "his congregation", no matter WHAT justification he gave. You may have forgotten, but "freedom of religion" does not allow you to commit crimes as defined in the Laws of the US. That was reiterated in the court documents presented to twi in one of their cases. People have the right to believe as they wish, and teach as they wish, but they may not commit crimes, nor incite to commit crimes, nor conspire to commit crimes. === Besides it being ILLEGAL, it was also IMMORAL. "David Koresh" abused his office when he defined procedure and said all the women were supposed to have sex with him. Even if "everyone knew about it and approved", you're still ignoring that when an authority figure REDEFINES things for you, and establishes social structures that REINFORCE that, it doesn't steal all freewill from the person, but it means they are no longer thinking in a fair and objective fashion. (Perhaps you still don't see that, ever.) So, it is wrong for a religious leader to take a woman (or man), arrange things in his favour, pressure him/her to have sex with him, and claim it's perfectly fine. WHETHER OR NOT HE DRUGS HIM OR HER. It's wrong no matter WHO does it.

The organization calling itself "The Way International" (also known as "the Way Ministry") claims its founding was in 1942. The old radio programs of vpw supposedly started that year -Vesper Chimes, Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. "The Way" was incorporated OFFICIALLY in 1957. vpw was an Evangelical and Reformed minister until 1957. That was the year he and "Uncle Harry" bought out the other brothers, and set up the corporation. Since it was supposedly a non-profit corporation (churches don't pay taxes) and doing so that year meant they didn't have to pay any taxes on the farm. The classes didn't begin until 1953, when vpw sat through BG Leonard's class twice, then began teaching BG Leonard's class and calling it "HIS" class-PFAL. The ministry didn't really experience growth until 1969, when vpw "hijacked the hippies"- tricking legitimate Christian youths into becoming his sales force for pfal, producing explosive growth in New York and California. So, what year it started in depends on where you're counting from. Counting from 1942, to say the least, is deceptive. ======== At the moment, they're claiming people in a lot of other countries. That includes military temporarily stationed in a country, and other ways to claim you have people in a country when it's really one or two people in an entire country. Notice they never give how MANY people they have-either WORLDWIDE or per country. At the moment, twi, for all practical purposes, exists ONLY in the United States. For that matter, their existence in the United States is a tiny, almost insignificant thing. There are perhaps 2000 adults currently in the entire organization. There are some LOCAL churches that are much bigger than that in ONE location, and most that have multiple "branches" in a city can equal or best that for their city alone. So, TWI is "small potatoes"- except for the people whose lives they ruin.

I keeps reminding me of a similar line in "Only the Good Die Young".

Texas law... Without consent of a parent or legal guardian, the age is 18. (At which point you have achieved your majority.) WITH consent of parent, the limit is 16, UNLESS YOU HAVE A COURT ORDER. http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm http://www.weddingvendors.com/marriage-lic...d-states/texas/ http://www.dallascounty.org/html/citizen-s...ge-license.html It was a crime, you sicko. Koresh had sex with 14-year olds. He did not have court orders saying he was married to them. Therefore, EACH sex act with a 14-year old or a 15-year old was an act of STATUTORY RAPE, which is equivalent to RAPE in the eyes of the State of Texas. It's obvious you have no idea WHY there's an age limit. Here's the Office of the State Attorney General of Texas, the leading LAW OFFICER's office for Texas, explaining the rationale. http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/op47mattox/jm-0359.htm Judge Mattox communicates in plain English. Thus, I expect everyone ELSE to see the WHY of it when reading this.

He MISrepresented a large amount of material, giving ZERO attribution. ZERO attribution for the work of others is a crime. He said that of PFAL,and the first PFAL classes were transliterations of Leonard. The only thing he "put together" there was HIS name and Leonard's work. Then he added Bullinger, Kenyon and Stiles, AGAIN giving NO attribution. That's 3 more crimes. Amazing how you STILL don't "understand" what plagiarism is. You are UNWILLING to comprehend it. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm Your "definition" of plagiarism falls FAR SHORT of the legal definition, both in practice and theory. Wrong. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm

Just curious- were those trips like Donna and Rozilla took, with the one suite with the single bed, or just normal extravagant trips? Or was it unclear which?