Oakspear

Galen: TWI maintained that all twigs were "self supporting, self governing, and self propogating". (I know it was a crock, but that's what they said. When you make the statement that you were in a "self supporting" twig, are you making a distinction between them and other types of twigs? Interesting about the marriage thing. I knew of several non-ordained or non-Way Corps who performed Way weddings. Our Limb Coordinator in Nebraska in the mid-nineties did one wedding that I know of; when in New York in the late 70's, a the twig leader of an Hispanic twig did a wedding as well. I had never heard of anyone refusing to marry non-Corps, except for your story. Jumpo through hoops and "counselling", yes, but outright refusal, no. Goes to show you how things often would vary depending on what area you were in and who your "leaders" were. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

WN: You've come a long way, baby! Life is great, ain't it? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I'll be in lower NY sometime next summer, but it won't be a surprise, so maybe I can hook up wit' some a youse N'Yawkahs :D--> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

We had a surprise birthday party for my mom today...she was really surprised since her birthday is actually December 25th! But it was one of those birthdays that end in zero (I won't be more specific in case mom wants to lie about her age)and this was the only weekend we could get everybody here! All mom's children, most of her grandchildren and nieces and nephews made it, as did her sister and several friends. Several of us had to be hidden at relatives houses Friday so as not to give it away; I couldn't even post that I was in New York because Mom reads the forums! So I'm back in my native land until Monday afternoon. Sorry I couldn't meet with any NY GSers, but everything was top secret! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Isn't the follow up "Okay, you can owe me", by Rodney Dangerfield's character? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

"Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son" Dean Wurmer to "Flounder" in Animal House In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

"I think you misundahstood him" Julia to Satch in Frequency after Satch relays Julia's husband's story of talking to their thirty-years-in-the-future son on a ham radio In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

"I'm here to kick @$$ and chew bubble gum...and I'm all out of bubble gum" Roddy Piper in They Live In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Whoa... I usually don't agree with Oldies on anything, but don't you think he is getting a bum rap here? He's not saying that God will excuse or forgive anything that TWI did, just that God will take care of an individual who was hurt deeply by them. It's a statement about God, not TWI! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Actually Martindale was in FCA when in college. I believe he was a big wheel in KU's FCA chapter, perhaps the president. Did FCA use the athlete of the spirit as a metaphor for a Christian? Or did they use the popularity of athletes to further the Christian message? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

When we are discussing Wierwille's plagerism, supporters of the godliness and "accuracy" of PFAL itself often chime in with "reminders" that Wierwille's plagerism does not affect the content of the class itself. That isn't the issue. The supposeded accuracy and godly worth of PFAL isn't what is being addressed when allegations of plagerism come up. The point of spotlighting plagerism by Wierwille is to show how this reflects on his character, not his self-proclaimed research skills. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

As I recall, JCING was footnoted, crediting authors such as Hislop, who wrote The Two babylons. Some chapters were published before being included in JCING, such as the pamphlet One God which became the chapter on John chapter one, after having been included in The Word's Way. I concur with the remarks about a "research team". Compare the writing style of the early collaterals to JCING, Jesus Christ Our Passover and Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I enjoyed Matrix I, once I willingly suspended disbelief regarding the "humans as a power source" plot device, it was actually quite enjoyable and pretty much internally consistant. It is a big hole to ignore though, it requires one to assume that nuclear, solar and fossil fuel power are no longer available. The machines seem able to build and drill, so why not? They never really address reproduction either. When people meet, marry and reproduce in the matrix, do the machines extract genetic material from each to start a new human? Matrix II was so confusing that I left the theater twice not sure what it was all about. The addition of apparently benevolent programs like The Oracle and The Keymaker, and independent programs like the Merovingian and his spook and vampire cronies, made things a bit interesting, but the whole conversation at the end of Reloaded with the Architect had me saying "huh?". In Matrix III at least we found out who Bane was. Although I must have missed any explanation as to how the Smith program (was he actually a virus?) "possessed" Bane. I also must have missed any explanation as to how Neo could stop the sentinels and "see" after being blinded. Superhuman feats made sense in the matrix, since they were, after all, just the manipulation of perceptions, but what explained the suspension of the laws of physics in the "real" world. At the end of Matrix II I thought maybe that they were actually still in the matrix, fooled into thinking they were in the real world. A third thing I must have slept through was any mention of a "machine city" prior to Neo's announcing that he was going there. What was that face formed from the swarming sentinels? Was that the Architect? Some things that I did like: The scene where the sentinels are flying in formation through the breaches in Zions roof; the fire and gloomy lighting was evocative of demons swarming through hell. The whole concept of Smith taking over the matrix one being at a time, absorbing both programs and people. The tableau just before the final fight where Neo and Smith approach each other in the pouring rain. It was interesting how the only way to defeat the machines was to unite against a common enemy; but the machines still retain the upper hand. When Neo was blinded, yet could still "see", was I the only one who remembered Herbert's Dune Messiah? Muad'Dib!!!!! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Always enjoy the Christian vs. Agnostic sparring...missed ya at the Weenie Roast In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I'm having a rough week :(--> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

What? The story of how Wierwille did a hostile takeover of the Way East and the Way West has never been posted here before? Heefner and Doop were heading up independent corporations using the PFAL class and running fellowships in California and New York respectively. They had a separate set of Trustees or Directors. I don't remember all the details, but Wierwille managed to set things up so that he was in control of both organizations, folding them into the Way International. He saw how others were having sucess using his stuff...if he was that much of a control freak, does anyone think that he would have stood still if unauthorized people were printing copies of PFAL, or even just parts of it and putting their own names on it? Of course not! The remarks about plagerizing from Karl were supposed to be humorous!!!! --> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

that was the initial reason...now I'm just being contrary. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Nah, I don't want to plagerize Karl K. :D--> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

It is not arguable that large parts of Mr. Wierwille's early work was identical or nearly so to the works of other authors. Okay, it now looks like there is no argument about whether Mr. Wierwille actually read the works of others before compiling his own works. It certainly is a documented fact that Wierwille and a few others attended Leonard's class in Canada. There doesn't seem to be an argument about whether or not Wierwille's actions meet the legal definition of plagerism. The only argument that I can discern is whether it was important or not. Whether Wierwille should or should not be held to the same standards as everyone else. Whether Wierwille's wholesale copying of others' works was done at the behest of God, or in order to line his own pockets. When's one's unshakeable premise is that PFAL is the new Word of God, and that virtually everything done to bring it forth was justified, then nothing else matters. When one has a somewhat open mind, one can more easily accept that things may not have been as they appear. Roy brought up a good point: If someone had taken Wierwille's work and repackaged it under a different name, how would Wierwille have responded? Never mind hypotheticals, look how he did respond to independent groups (the Way East, the Way West and the Way of Australia) running classes that he had no direct control over? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Sam is "out" and is registered here on GreaseSpotCafe as Scoburn. Another GSer noticed his name is the "blue box" one night while we werre in chat. I have emailed back and forth with him a few times. His profile shows that he is in Independence, Missouri. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Nicely put, Laleo. Any objective reading of JPW's website and Platig's letter should reveal who's being sincere and who's trying to muddy the waters. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

...but I was mainly thinking of it as a rebuttal point to what Platig said. If you have in writing Harve's assertion that their actions were taken with family approval and it turns out that it was bull...., that would be pretty hard for any remaining "innies" to rationalize away...hmmm, maybe not! In the grand scheme of things...even in the SMALL scheme of things, it makes no difference to me, just like to see TWI choke on their own words...because they insisted on publishing! Even if one of the sisters had power-of-attorney for their mom, was she given any kind of true choice? "Mrs. _________, this is Harve Platig, the doctors say that your mother needs around-the-clock care in an Alzheimer's Unit due to her deteriorating condition. We will not under any circumstances be providing any care here at her home other than someone to cook for her and hold her hand. Sorry, the lawyers say we can't do it...laws, ya know. What is your decision Mrs. __________?" I can empathize with JPW's frustration. Prevented from visiting his mother in her own home, at least consoled by the fact that she is being taken care of physically...oops, she's sick...you take care of her...she's your mother. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Just from reading JPW's letter, the beef does not seem to be that the nursing home was the option, but TWI's dishonesty through it all. JPW disputes TWI's assertion that the family was in on the decision He implies that she was not receiving proper care before being sent to the nursing home. From the written corresponance it does not appear that JPW is seeking to return his mother to her home, or to remove her from the nursing home. According to him, a decision regarding his mother's care was made without consent of her children it was apprently made, at least in part, to be convenient for TWI TWI should have found a way to be financially responsible for her care I don't see where Wierwille is demanding anything of substance from TWI, it looks like he is trying to set the record straight. In order for us to be able to see the picture more clearly, we will need to hear from the unnamed sister who allegedly has the power-of-attorney (or all three of them for that matter) to confirm or deny the competing versions of this story. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Nothing to re-claim, it was the pagans' to start with! The folks who started the observance didn't believe in a devil anyway, so it not a "devil's holiday". The Christians tried to claim it centuries ago by turning it into All Saints Day. That went over well, didn't it? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

About two years ago I was thrown out of TWI primarily for posting on Grease Spot Cafe. Will I be getting an invitation to return d'ya think? :D--> Here are a few of my thoughts on Mr. Platig's letter to JPW. Points A, B, & C following are taken from Mr. Platig's intro: A. It is unprecedented for TWI to respond to attacks posted on the internet - they are responding because Mrs. W is so important and the nature of the innacuracies.Mr.Platig laso claims that the "household" was not informed of the nursing home move because it was a family matter. Does this mean that the threads about VPW being an abuser of women and a research hack aren't innaccurate? Or maybe as inaccurate? This is the worst thing that GS has ever put out? What's really going on here? And since when is anything regarding TWI top leadership "just a family matter"? A high-profile person like Mrs. W. goes into a nursing home and they decide not to tell anyone? B. Accuses JPW of putting his personal agenda over his mother's health. This, of course, is Harve (reader-of-teachings)'s personal opinion, and classic TWI tactics. Confuse the issue by questioning the person's motives. C. TWI claims that Wanda informed JPW's sister, who got the agreement of other siblings, JPW claims that it was done without their knowledge. "He said/She said" until this unnamed sister weighs in with additional evidence. Points 1- 4 are from Mr. Platig's supposed "rebuttals" to JP accusations and implications: 1. Harve argues about what JP disagrees "without equivocation" with. It is obvious from his letter that he disagrees with the assertion by the BOD that the action was taken with his and his sisters' consent. Harve plays word games to make it look like JP disagrees with medical advice, or with his mother getting the best care. How many times I saw this in TWI, confuse the issue by taking what the person said and twisting it just slightly. This is good ol' TWI leadership at it's best. Confuse the issue, blame the victim, make it look like the person with the complaint is saying something that they are not really saying. Classic. Mr. Platig mentions that the care is better than that which Wanda Wierwille can provide. He does not address JPW's actual point, which is not that an individual, Wanda Wierwille, can duplicate the care in a nursing home, but that a huge corporation can. Harve suggests that there is nothing to prevent JP from taking Mrs. W into his (JP's) home. Nowhere is JPW suggesting that being in a nursing home is bad, nor do I think that JP, or his sisters taking over Mrs. W's care is comparable to an international organization with millions in assets doing the same. JPW is not suggesting that she go to his home, but that TWI has the resources to make her comfortable in her own home. Mr.Platig claims that JPW states that the nursing home care is better than what is available at TWI; what he actual says is that the care at the nursing home is better than what was received at TWI. 2. Platig claims that TWI is meeting it's ethical obligations to Mrs. W. Whatever "assets" Mrs. Wierwille has are supposedly covering the expenses, and if that fails, "government programs" will take over. Harve accuses JPW of saying that TWI has abandoned his mother. Apparently TWI is meeting its "legal" obligations, but there sure is disagreement over what "ethical" means. They can't pay for an old lady's nursing care, but they can pay for 24-hour servants for the BOD. How many GS folks had as their Corps assignment "The Wierwille home" or "the Allen Home", or ironing Martindang's clothes? How many staff members are mowing the lawn and cooking meal's over at Rosalie's place? And if there is a shortfall, why no problem... welfare can take over! 3. Harve disputes JP's implication that Mrs. W's care was substandard, suggesting that JP could have brought her into his home at any time and reiterating the claim that JP's unnamed sister had power of attorney and was legally the only one who could make those decisions. Harve claims that JP failed to respond to letters suggesting care options. Another case of He said-She said. However, this claim that JP could have brought her into his home at any time is a distraction. Why should she not have remained in her own home. Does JP Wierwille have access to millions in "Abundant Sharing"? The Wierwille's barely were given time to pay their respects to their brother when he died, since they were barred from the property for all but the smallest period of time. 4. Platig denies that Wanda Wierwille was portrayed as a family spokeperson. Oh geez, just read the friggin' letter that she sent out! While she is never overtly called "family spokesperson" Wanda Wierwille, she is the one who communicates on their behalf. Platig closes by stating that he will not retract anything, but that JPW should. I for one would like to know which sister is the unnamed holder of power-of-attorney. I would like to see JP Wierwille's response to all this. Mr. Platig wants GS to provide a forum for his views, I would like to have equal time on THEIR web site! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear [This message was edited by Oakspear on October 26, 2003 at 21:22.]