Oakspear

Far be it for me to say whether someone's experience was or wasn't a miracle. The reference to the book of Acts as a standard for miracles has been brought up a few times. Maybe the question can include, why don't we see those big time miracles that you see in the bible? Assuming that the averted car crash, the potential suicide climbing down just in time to get someone through traffic, and the apparent healings are genuine miracles, why do all the miracles that happen nowadays seem to be the type that require the participant to say "I just know it was God". It was pretty plain that Lazarus and Dorcas were dead, and just as plain that they weren't after Jesus and Peter got God involved. Jesus and Peter walked on the water, people who really were blind were able to see. Fire came down from heaven and wacked all those Baal worshippin' priests and prophets. Why don't we see miracles of that caliber any more? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

The Rohirrim joining the battle shouting "Death, death, death" was awesome. The look on the faces of the Orcs when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli jump off the pirate ship, then the LOOK on their faces when the dead army materializes. Merry wounding the Nazgul and Eowyn killing him. (the Nazgul, not Merry!)Quite a few women in the audience cheered when she exclaims "I am no man" The depiction of Denethor's insanity was scary. The look on Frodo's face when he claims the ring just before putting it on at Mount Doom shows more than a little insanity in his eyes. Gollum's look just before he lands in the lava is priceless. There were parts of the movie where I literally cried, others when I cheered. I was on the edge of my seat despite having read the book at least a dozen times. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I would say that most of the changes from the book to the movie were in the category of details. There were very few changes that were in any way major. For instance the Paths of The Dead change that Zix mentions. Elladan and Elrohir (Elrond's sons) play such a small part in the book, and do not appear "on stage" until this scene, that introducing them (as well as Aragorn's fellow Dunedain rangers) would only confuse by adding to an already large cast of "main" characters. Other changes were in the manner of compressing or alluding to things that are not fully developed. Like the above mentioned Faramir-Eowyn romance. The whole Houses of Healing chapter would have, IMHO, bogged the movie down at a critical point, the meaningful glances they give each other at the coronation tell the tale. The change that I saw that was most significant was the decision to not include "The Scouring of the Shire", and the connected fate of Saruman. For those who didn't read the book, the returning Hobbits, as well as Gandalph run into Saruman and Grima Wormtongue on the way to Rivendell. Treebeard got soft-hearted and couldn't bear to keep him caged up. By the time the hobbits return to The Shire, they find that a group of ruffians have taken over. Pippin and Merry organize a rebellion and take back their country. The leader is revealed to be Saruman. Frodo spares Saruman's life, but Wormtongue knifes Saruman in the back after Saruman kicks him. Hobbit archers kill Wormtongue. There have been arguments raging on LOTR web sites for over a year about this ommission. I would have liked to see the book adhered to in this case, but it did not detracy from the spirit of the book, and things still were tied up nicely. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I was going to wait until Christmas day to see it, but was taking a stroll this evening and poked my head into the theatre to see if there were any seats left. 20 minutes earlier there was a line of at least a hundred people waiting, now there was no line and it was over two hours to show time. When I asked about available seats the two theatre employees looked at each other and said "Sure, we have one ticket left! (maybe this should be in the "miracles" thread!) See you in the spoiler thread! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Actually, I think it was 1993. Not surprised that it would have happened more than once, but I do remember that the question and answer parts were discontinued after that in 94 and 95. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Roy: You're equating science with wizards and sorcerers? Contrary to your opinion, science is not a fixed set of beliefs, but is updated when new facts come to light. Assuming that the bible is true (which I don't) one should always hold out the possibility that one's understanding of the bible is incomplete before trashing science. If the bible is the Word of God, wouldn't it necessarily agree with true science? I guess it's more comfortable to unthinkingly and uncritically adhere to one's beliefs despite any evidence that they might be wrong, rather than actually THINK In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Gloin and Balin both appear in The Hobbitt In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I believe that any miracles and healings that may have been happening were eventually stifled by the legalism of the leadership. In my experience I never saw anything that absolutely could not have been explained by the laws of nature, or by coincidence, or even by fantasizing or wishful thinking, HOWEVER there were plenty of times when a desired result came to pass after someone prayed. Maybe it was random chance, or even lowered expectations, maybe not. The point is that people believed that the supernatural could happen. Little by little restrictions were put on believing. Any revelation had to agree with what leadership said, or even that only leadership would receive revelation. You wouldn't see miracles if you weren't giving significantly above the tithe, if you were in debt, if you weren't "salted". People who previously experienced signs, miracles and wonders no longer did because they were talked out of it. This wasn't because of a sudden burst of agnosticism among wayfers, or a teaching that the supernatural wasn't available, just that it was taught that there were so many restrictions, so many hoops to go through, so many requirements, that even thinking about the supernatural became unusual. Heck, I've seen more miracles in the last six months, by non-Christians than I did in my last six years in TWI. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

As wannabe "leaders" frequently imitated Wierwille and later Martindale, many started saying "I'm running this meeting" whenever there was any dissent, or if the reproved one disagreed with the assessment of the almighty miniMOG. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Good point Evan and ex10 about Wierwille squelching arguments as well. From very early on TWI was an organization that did not tolerate dissent. Wierwille usually wasn't as vulgar about it (although I dare say some might dispute that), the incident at the ROA Twig Coordinators meeting was a natural outgrowth of an attitude that had been there for years if nor decades. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Good point about the yelling once being reserved for Way Corps. Yeah, it did turn into everybody getting yelled at in the mid 90's. Seems like when I got "in" in the late 70's more was expected of Corps folks. In 1994 I remember or Branch Coordinator telling us that we were wrong for thinking that only the Way Corps had made a committment, we all had by showing up to his living room and listening to him teach. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I haven't seen the movie yet Rafael, but in the book, Eowyn and Faramir are both recovering from their nazgul wounds in the House of His Healing Presence...er...Houses of Healing :D--> Eowyn is in love with Aragorn, Faramir falls for Eowyn, who eventually returns his love. They marry after Theoden is buried in Rohan. That's not in the movie???!!! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Anybody have any from before 1993? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I was at that meeting also. The pattern that it set, at least in my area, was that whoever was running a meeting could do or say whatever they wanted. Martindale said that whoever was running the meeting (in that case, him) had free reign. I saw "leaders" take this attitude often, especially in "confrontation" meetings. Martindale...he should have been a diplomat :D --> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear <!--graemlin::cool:--> [This message was edited by Oakspear on December 19, 2003 at 18:41.]

Check your private topics please In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

The 2000 lawsuit was the catalyst that caused me to seriously question. Before that I questioned practices in my mind, but rarely doctrine. I rationalized away the abuses. Seeing how the so-called MOG was so "out to lunch" got me questioning in sucession Martindale's ability to lead, his ability to teach, the substance of actual Martindale teachings, and then even some of Wierwille's teachings. I took well over a year to methodically work through things. It was clear that a great many things could not in any way be suported by the bible. I worked my way up the Way Tree, getting no answers and finally spoke on the phone to one of the Trustees. He told me to take my concerns to my region coordinator, since that region coordinator had painstakingly "worked the Word" to prepare for a live teaching of WayAP in my area. The RC told me that he hadn't "worked the Word" regarding Martindale's class because the Trustees backed up what was taught in it and that was good enough for him. It was at that moment that, in my heart, I was "out". They threw me out a few months later after finding out that I posted here. I guess that the "reliable source" was myself. I used the "keys to the Word's interpretation" that TWI had taught me, I didn't take anyone else's word for it. I had no one to talk to face to face, but I did have a few folks from GS who helped me through the worst of times In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Forgiving, in my opinion is a multi-level type o' thing. There's the forgiveness where you decide that you are not going carry around hate anymore, because it's harmful to you, where you decide that you are not going to let some a$$hole who hurt you continue to hurt you through your own memories. Then there's the type of forgiveness where you decide unilaterally that the person who wronged you gets a pass. Kind of like when Jesus said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". They didn't ask for forgiveness. Like "forgiving" a debt. The person who wronged you is absolved from the consequenses of his actions. Those two don't necessarily involve any repentance on the part of the one who wronged you. How about when a person comes to you, repents of their offense, and makes restitution? Or expresses sorry, but restitution isn't possible? Another type of forgiveness involves accepting the "sorry", apology, restitution, whatever, and accpting that person back into full fellowship with you. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Roy: I would guess (not being a lawyer, nor playing one on teevee) that it would depend on several things, including what "paperwork" was filled out. Was your business incorporated or otherwise operating "legally", or were you operating on a cash under the table basis? When you sold the business were there legal documents drawn up? Was there a bill of sale of any kind for the tools? Was the 10% in perpetuity, or for a limited time? I would imagine that if you didn't establish the paper trail, pay the right fees and taxes, etc, then there is no legal obligation to do anything. Moral and ethical is another matter. I'm glad that the love makes up for the money. I'd prefer both :D--> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Ditto what Tom Strange said How do you know that what TWI has is "The Truth"? Despite Wierwille's claims that he would teach us the keys to "the Word's" interpretation and how we could work the Word ourselves, we really just sat in awed wonder at what we were taught. Any "research" was done only to back up what was already taught. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Someone mentioned about thinking that some of those passing around information on the crap were "possesed". For some, the source of the information could taint how it was received. Since I was not involved from 1983-1990, I missed the uproar that accompanied Chris Geer's pronouncements, Lynn and Dubosfsky's paper, John Schoenheit's firing and all the rest. In late 1990, I was thinking of getting back involved so that my kids could take PFAL. Despite being "out" for seven years, we had not moved away from Wierwille's teachings. My "outie" sources for information were not in my mind very reliable. One was a woman I had known since my WOW year who couldn't think her way out of a paper bag, whose opinion was usually formed by the last person she had talked to. She and her husband didn't have enough brain cells between them to register on a postal scale. Another was my old WOW coordinator who I had little respect for because of his own abuses during our WOW year. Others were similarly unreliable in my mind. So I was left mainly with the company line: Martindale's "Galatians Tapes", aka "Leaders Tapes I & II", which I took shortly after getting back "in". The twig coordinators who were left in Nebraska were seemingly intelligent, and I was fooled by what I heard and saw. I did not know any of the other folks who had left, so I couldn't talk to them. Of course it was verboten to discuss any of this stuff with "the believers" at that point. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Rascal: Good point. I think your experience was more a function of the time that you got out. From what you and others who got out when you did have told me, the reasons were primarily practical error, rather than doctrinal. The meltdown following POP, Martindale's demand that everybody line up behind him, right or wrong, so many other things. Those of us who stayed in (or first got involved) after the mass exodus in the late 80's either didn't know about the practical error and abuses, didn't care, or rationalized them away somehow. So, if we got out, it was more likely to involve doctrinal questioning as well as questioning Martindale's behavior that led to the lawsuit. (This is all from my perspective and personal observation only!) The M&A class of 2001 had access to the internet and read about abuses going back years, and werea ble to view or participate in threads questioning the doctrinal basis of many of the Way's beliefs In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

We were at a live "Rise & Expansion" class taught by T*m M*llins. At lunch we all ate together in one of the hotel dining rooms. T*m was at the head table, and shortly after he finished his meal, lit up a smoke. Smokers all over the room looked to their table hosts and hostesses (I was one) for guidance on smoking availability. I figured (as did others) that if Reverand Grand Poobah M*llins was puffing, so could we, so we asked the waiter for some ashtrays and fired 'em up. Before we could say "Winston tastes good...like a cigarette should" we were getting yelled at for smoking. Grand exalted Region Coordinator could smoke, because he was the man of God and had the privelege of doing whatever he needed to do to be his best for teaching the Word. WE shouldn't have lit up. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Happy Birthday bro' See ya at next year's Roast In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

My branch coordinator who wondered aloud if the words diamond and daimon were related. Same branch coordinator who berated my son (then in his early 20's) for being in debt because he had to pay in to the IRS rather than receiving a refund. I was asked to instruct some of the younger wayfers on voting procedures (some would be voting for the first time). Some of the things that I discussed were who could vote in the primaries and the meaning of several propositions and referenda. As I was explaining the language in Proposition #4, my ex-wife interrupts with "...and we all know what the number four means, don't we?", and went off on an explanation of the biblical significance of "four". In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I got "in" in 1978. In early 1983 I got in several arguments with the Limb Coordinator and his wife and stopped going for about seven years. Got back "in" in 1990. Almost left again in the late 90's after the Branch Coordinator yelled at my wife and I yelled at him. My wife made it clear that she would not back me up and that she wanted to stay "in" no matter what. Was put on probation for six months in 1999. Got back "in" in late 1999. Started questioning practice and then doctrine after the lawsuit was announced in 2000. I started drifting away over the next year and a half. My wife would not listen to my concerns and stayed in when I was finally trhrown out in August 2001. Even though I was thrown out, and did not leave under my own steam, it was not all that traumatic, since in my heart I had been out for a long time. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear