Oakspear

Yup...I think we have a winner!

WordWold & WhiteDove: Good work gentlemen. The word translated faith/believe isn't nearly so complicated or convoluted as Mr. Wierwille made it. But that was part of the attraction was it not? The "secret", "special" knowldge that "the world" didn't know. :ph34r: Wierwille's teachings on believing resembled very closely books like "The Secret" and the early 20th century writer Florence Scovell Schinn, where stating intention in a positive fashion equalled receipt of whatever it was you wanted.

Bramble: Doubtless the author knows little and cares less what modern pagans believe and sees the world through a Christian lens. That's his privelege, right or wrong. What he's contrasting Christianity with is, including his assertion that charity was unlnown among pagans, Roman state paganism. Just as mainstream Christianity is the 800 pound gorilla in the room of our culture, "official" Roman paganism was in 1st century culture. Just as modern pagans in the U.S. have to contend with the assumption that everybody's a Christian, Christians in Corinth had to contend with the expectation that everybody would conform to to pagan customs. In the context, his comments make sense, even his ridiculous assertion that religions that predated Abraham were a parody, weak or otherwise of a relatively new faith.

Geez, this needs to go to Politics & tacks IMHO

Senator Chanbers is one of ours; he's the only black member of the one-house Nebraska legislature. He's term-limited out after this term. Ernie is a master a parliamentary procedure, and has been able to tie up the unicameral in knots when it suited him.

I don't think this was one of the things he plagriarized or learned from someone else, I believe that this is one of Wierwille's "unique" doctrines. If this was taught in "the denominations" (as if TWI wasn't a denomination) then it would have reached a heck of lot more people than Wierwille ever did Only if you accept Wierwille's false distinction between "believing" and "faith" as true. Wierwille drew a contrast between two words, that although dissimilar in English, are translated from the same word in Greek. He also outlined 5 supposed kinds of believing, but never really defined them from the bible; I would venture to say that most wayfers and ex-wayfers would admit confusion as to what Wierwille actually taught about the other 4 types of believing. <_< Even if it's a manifestation...where's the definition?

I've always found "oh my God" a bit thoughtless, if not offensive like "God d*mn". "Luann", a syndicated comic, frequently has the title character using the phrase "ohmygaw".

DWBH: In general I agree with what you're saying. In addition, not being a Christian I feel no compulsion to follow Jesus' (or anyone else's in the bible) example of forgiveness. But your characterization of yourself as a "man who knew too much" suggests that you were in a position of leadership yourself. Have you any forgveness to seek?

Gee, when you put it that way, it all makes sense!

To each his or her own of course, but my wife and I made $850 in three hours reading those devilish tarot cards for a local company's employee appreciation day Although I disagree with your friend's conclusions, it makes sense within the context of their beliefs. From a certain mindset it makes sense to eschew books like Harry Potter which do indeed promote a belief in magic, especially if you believe that magic is not from your god. same with fairies, if their not angels, then what are they? I think that these folks are wrong, but they're consistant.

Still haven't seen biblically or logically how one can improve by practicing something that is already perfect (perfect prayer, wonderful works of God etc). Now if by "fluent", Wierwille really meant "comfortable", now that's another thing. If someone is shy or unsure, wouldn't the words still be perfect, while the delivery is shaky?

Establishes and maintains a positive attitude Established and maintained denial makes life meaningful Made life center around a corrupt organization Overcomes worry and fear Encouraged worry and fear of leadership and of not believing Promotes prosperity and health I've had more of both since leaving TWI Explains apparent bible contradictions At best gave semi-plausible possible explanations of bible contradictions Develops more harmony in the home Not for me Enables you to seperate truth from error Enabled me to separate Wierwille's opinions from other people's opinions Disciplines the mind by believing Whatever that means Teaches how to pray effectively. Prayer had about the same effectiveness before, during and after PFAL.

Relish in bashing? Does that go well on hot dogs?

WW, I think the quote from Wierwille's dad about school was in TW:LIL - something about sending him to Lakland/Mission House because that's the school whose missionary program they supported.

The article does say that The Way had always been against homosexuality, it was the way that the TWI position became a "purge" that was Martindale's.

Understandable, I often take the atheists' side in these discussions. Well, that's one way to look at it. I think another way to look at it is that even an atheist has heard of God, or the concept of God, so that even if he or she doesn't believe that there is a God, the response to the question is in the context of the asker's question. Yes, the question presumes the existance of God, but answering it doesn't necessarily assume the same thing.

Amazingly enough, I have a life outside of Grease Spot Cafe! I don't consider myself an atheist, but understand the atheist point of view. I consider myself an agnostic: I don't see the existance of God or gods as established, but I don't rule it out either. I don't think that an atheists "needs" God I've got laundry to do and a family at home today, so maybe I'll check in later.

Part of why it cycles around so often is that most of us, either while still invoved in TWI or after, modified our own understanding of what "believing" was and projected that onto what was taught in PFAL. Wierwille said some pretty specific things about his "Law o' Believing" in PFAL, but it wasn't always practiced that way nor always taught that way. Sooner or later these believing threads become arguments about how "believing" is godly, biblical, and how it works, yet what is decribed isn't what Wierwille taught in PFAL.

I don't think that there is a "most". Folks go where they find what they want. That might range from a TWI clone to the church of their youth to a coven to...nothing.

But is tradition correct?

What's that?

Sorry sky...you're just not making any sense to me...perhaps because it's a Friday night and have not had any beer But thank you, yes, I did get married.

Perhaps God is not who we or the bible think he is. There are evil things happening in this world every day, it's cold comfort to hear that God has an unfathomable plan when the evil happening to you.

T-Bone: While I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of trinitarian vs. unitarian theology, but many unitarians, either through ignorance or obstinance don't understand that trinitarians don't see The Father and The Son (or for that matter, the Holy Spirit) as identical, but as different personas, or aspects of one God. Many (not all) of the arguments that unitarians use focus on differences between The Father and The Son, assuming that it translates into a difference between God and Jesus.

My first wife and I received absolutely no counselling, we were told flat out that he would not marry us. The prime reason was that I had dropped out of the Corps Apprentice program (couldn't get my money together) which was considered prima facae evidence that we shouldn't get married. We had a judge do the honors.