johniam

quote: (I think that JAL stops just shy of saying what johniam was talking about, that his organization just teaches the Bible, and has nothing in place to formally cope with those in need.) I've posted before that I have 2 sons with autism. No TWI style fellowship we've gone to had anything in place to accomodate us. We attended a church for a year or so that had Sunday school for them, but there were 3 ex way families in that church. The leaders of John Hendricks' fellowships here don't invade into our personal lives at all but the 2 sons, although they don't disrupt the fellowships, they don't benefit from them either so we don't take them there. It's nice that today our cultural emphasis on diversity includes Christian fellowships, but nothing will accomodate EVERYBODY. Christ can, but no man made religious organization can.

Goey: quote: BTW the "form" of TWI that I am complaining about is their blatant rejection of the Words of Jesus Christ in regards to helping people with their physical/emotional needs, errantly believing and teaching that a class or a tape that teaches "The Word" is the solution to all human needs. I don't think TWI necessarily taught that their package was the solution to all human needs. Perhaps it evolved into that but VPW never said anything like that in PFAL. Consider George Meuller. He didn't try to do it all. With his education he could have done many more self serving things and made more money. He "specialized" in ministering to orphans. I'm just saying that just because TWI/Ces etc. have marketing in their system doesn't mean they never truly helped anyone in a Christian way.

I read somewhere that Billy Graham wouldn't even ride in an elevator alone with a woman; if he was alone on an elevator and it stopped at a floor where a woman alone got on it, he'd get off and walk the rest of the way up. True, he's a celebrity, not just a pastor, but he must've felt he couldn't be too careful.

Song: Check this out. Standing on the moon I got no cobweb on my shoe Standing on the moon I'm feeling so alone and blue I see the Gulf of Mexico As tiny as a tear The coast of California Must be somewhere over here - over here Standing on the moon I see the battle rage below Standing on the moon I see the soldiers come and go There's a metal flag beside me Someone planted long ago Old Glory standing stiffly Crimson, white and indigo - indigo I see all of Southeast Asia I can see El Salvador I hear the cries of children And the other songs of war It's like a mighty melody That rings down from the sky Standing here upon the moon I watch it all roll by - all roll by Standing on the moon With nothing else to do A lovely view of heaven But I'd rather be with you Standing on the moon I see a shadow on the sun Standing on the moon The stars go fading one by one I hear a cry of victory And another of defeat A scrap of age old lullaby Down some forgotten street Standing on the moon Where talk is cheap and vision true Standing on the moon But I would rather be with you Somewhere in San Francisco On a back porch in July Just looking up to heaven At this crescent in the sky Standing on the moon With nothing left to do A lovely view of heaven But I'd rather be with you - be with you

Song: quote: The view of earth is quite different when observing from the moon's point of view. You're on the moon?

Goey: quote: What are the folks associated with CES "DOING"? Is the "doing" just getting people into the "Word" according to CES so they can buy tape and classes so they can get others into the word according to CES and buy tapes and classes? Or is there a higher purpose? - Like actually helping folks in need? Nobody can do it all. Even Jesus had time constraints. One major complaint here about TWI is that they taught us to disrespect traditional Christianity and its forms. But aren't you basically doing the same thing when your knee jerk reaction is to attack anyone who appears to praise any "form" of TWI. What's wrong with having a "package of biblical truth" in class form? JAL's right! Thousands of people WERE helped by TWI. Nothing wrong with what Mother Teresa did as far as I know but Jesus never said that widows, poor, and needy are the only ones who need God's word.

Goey: quote: How many widows did TWI attend to? How many poor/needy did they cloth and feed? So how many people did Mother Teresa lead into speaking in tongues?

Danny: quote:many wars have resulted from words like you have exspresed. Which wars?

Satori: quote:If any faith is represented as "truth," we need to ask, "What makes this 'truth' different from every other faith, which makes the same claim?" We need to ask with the commitment to discover the truth about our "Truth." That's the same argument put forth in Jesus Christ Superstar. What makes truth truth is God. Either He's real or He ain't. True, I can't prove that the God I believe in exists, but neither can you prove He doesn't.

Danny: quote:i didn't take his post like that at all. if u read mine you might come to the same conculion but i do have a profound belief system. it's just not we have been taught cut and dried. is it so very plain in the bible? I would say not. why is there a different brand on every corner? if god really wanted us to know don't you think he could put it in english? I think God wants people to act on His word. What good does it do God for people to sit around and argue about what his word might mean rather than DO SOMETHING! Nobody knows it all, but sooner or later you gotta make a decision. Otherwise you become like the person with one talent in the parable of the talents in Matt. 25 who buried it in the ground.

Satori: Sounds like you're trying to avoid admitting that you don't believe in God. I mean, if there is no God, then what you say is true, but if there IS...

Saw the Dead 3 weeks ago for $52.50 per ticket (top price). When Paul McCartney was here a year or so ago top tickets were $250 and nose bleed were $130. My first concert was Frankie Valle and the Four Seasons in April of '67 for $2.50. Saw Alice Cooper at a skating rink for $2.00 in '70. Saw a 12 hour show in Detroit in May of '71 for $5.00 which included Johnny Winter And, Edgar Winter with White Trash, Allman Bros. with everybody still alive, J. Geils Band, Bob Seger, Mitch Ryder, Boz Skaggs, and a few others. Was at closing week of Fillmore West in June/July of '71 (5 shows in 5 nights, each cost $3.50). Thought it was a ripoff to pay $7.00 to see the Who on the Quadrophenia tour (Nov. '73). I pretty much stopped going to concerts altogether during my TWI years. Wayfernot, I did see the Monsters of Rock tour with Van Halen, Scorpions, etc. in '88 in Detroit. That show cost me $25.00 per ticket. Seeing how much rock and roll is still in demand today makes me glad I went to all the shows I did back in the day, though.

Has anybody noticed that in the 3 gospels where Jesus said some would not taste of death until they saw the kingdom of God etc. the very next thing that happens is James John and Peter accompany Jesus to the mount of transfiguration where they SEE a vision of Jesus in his glory? In JAL's post he said the adversary saw that VP put together a package of biblical truth that worked for people or something like that. That's a good point. These people who have to know what every theologian on earth says about every scripture never get around to actually DOING anything with the word.

Simon: Maxville was a shortstop and Shannon was originally a right fielder, but when Ken Boyer retired after the '66 season Roger Maris came and played right field while Shannon was moved to 3rd base. Now that you mention it, the Cubs must've had a good team in the late 60s early 70s: Banks at 1st, Beckert and Kessinger and Ron Santo to fill out the infield, Billy Williams and Jim Hickman in the OF. Fergie Jenkins is the only starter I can remember. Pirates must've had a good bullpen. I remember the '65 series (Twins/Dodgers) how the Twins were the consumate offensive team with Killebrew, Allison, Oliva, etc. and the Dodgers were the pitching team with Koufax, Drysdale, Perranoski, etc. One stat used to illustrate this was that Twins leadoff hitter SS Zoilo Versailes had 77 RBI for the season while the team leader for the Dodgers OF Ron Fairly only had 70. Dodgers won game 7 2-0 in Minnesota with Koufax pitching. Guess it comes down to one game at a time. Cards bullpen this year is good plus their starting 5 pitchers collectively have only missed one start all year. That's gotta help.

Simon: Don't forget Glenn Beckert and Don Kessinger.(can't remember which one played second base and which one played shortstop)

quote: Well. we know they have icewater in their veins, so I guess they must .... out ice-chunks...must be painful. Icewater??? I thought it was sawdust. Must be the "fast of the Lord".

There's still a lot of baseball to be played in the majors. Seattle won 116 games in what? 2001? Didn't even make it to the world series. Anything could happen.

If GSC ever changes its name it oughta be called Mars Hill. Satori: Yes, it is a privilege to be here isn't it? Welcome back, by the way. IDan: I agree, JAL's a big boy; he is equal to anything here. From a senses point of view, he isn't likely to get many bites for his group if he won't answer posts, but maybe he thinks God told him to post here. JT: quote: Maybe I'm being naive but I think most people here are pretty decent. Who knows what a little effort on JLs part might do? I totally agree. WW: quote: If he did, I would give him a fair shake. Neither giving him a "free ride" nor attacking him. That's the cool thing about GSC. We don't have to respect persons. JAL's come this far; he really ought to indulge some of us.

I haven't jumped in here, because I don't know John personally and I haven't had any real exposure to CES, but I'm wondering something. On the one hand, yes, JAL should make more of an effort to get to know us and drop the MOG persona some, yet if he did this, would we let him? If he was to, say, post on Just Thinking's new thread about way homes, not as the MOG, but just like the rest of us, (like someone who understands TWI terminology). Let's say he posts on that thread and says, "Whoa! Way homes? Now that's something I haven't thought of for awhile. I used to like this one way home in Indianapolis; God were those people goofy...etc." If he really did try to relate to us on our level, would we let him do it, or would 50 people gang up on him like mosquitoes and post stuff like, "Oh yeah! Way homes! Whoopie! I was in a way home once. Scarred me for life! Glad to hear you enjoyed YOUR way home, JOHN!!!" Are we really giving him much of a reason to pursue communication here?

Wow! Suneisis' post makes me wonder if LCM wasn't already pimping out his girls to limb and region cordos and they wanted to make sure the goodies kept on coming.

Yeah, LCM taught that the devil would not exist anymore and neither would devil spirits, seed boys, or those who didn't have eternal life, whether pre-pentecost who were condemned by the law, or post-pentecost who just never got born again. It always seemed kind of disproportionate to me for one lifetime of sin to yield eternal torment.

I was never in the corps, yet I heard many rumors: 1) girl I knew in the 11th corps said during her 1st block in res. (fall of '80) they were asked to vote. She said she voted for Vince F. but never heard another thing. 2) that Craig was picked because he was married to Donna the superbelieverwoman (?) 3) revelation to VP 4) Because Walter was too old (he's 4 yrs older than Craig?????!!!!!) 5) Craig's believing; he wasn't going to settle for anything less than the top spot Hopefully somebody knows for sure.

Sky: VPs approach on this was purely logical: if God is truly the author of the bible, then the words must be perfect or God is not perfect. Consider that right before Peter wrote "no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" he called it a "more sure word of prophecy" than having hung out with Jesus. The problem that evolved in TWI was that out of one side of their mouth they say "no private interpretation/the word interprets itself" but then they put their own 'seal of approval' on a particular application of scripture and say "we got this nailed down/ this is the right dividing of the word/ don't bother to think about it any more/ just move with it". I don't think that is good. People need to digest whatever they believe as truth. Sure, God is perfect, but we're not. So if God authored the bible to us, He did so knowing we'd only be able to take it so far. Far enough to have a relationship with Him, but not far enough to know everything. 2 Peter 1:20 is good for stuff like the trinity or 'dead alive now'. Anyone who believes either of those has to at some point decide that they can interpret scripture any way they feel like it. For that matter, so does anyone who believes adultery is OK if they're spiritual enough to handle it. My view is: what good is it to even have a bible if it has no godly authority?

Sky: quote:II Peter 2:20 provides one of the corner stones on which Victor Paul hung his hat. You know the one, " Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." From this he taught that the Bible interprets itself . Clearly this is not what this scripture says. In no place does this scripture say that the Bible self interprets. What does the scripture say then about itself and understanding it? How about doing what Philip did with the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 and begin at the same scripture. If 2 Peter 1:20 doesn't mean the bible interprets itself, then what DOES it mean? VP said either there's no interpretation possible, or it interprets itself. Sounds logical to me. By the way, TWI aren't the only ones who believe that: when I was a WOW (77/78) I over heard a Christian bookstore worker tell a young couple that the bible interprets itself. quote:It says a lot. I Corinthians 2:13 says " Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual with spiritual." Alas , the Holy Ghost is the teacher. Neither do we have to be concerned with excesses of words, because by definition the Holy Ghost teaches us what these words mean. If that's all there is to it; that the holy ghost teaches us what the words mean, then why have a written bible in the first place? Surely the holy ghost doesn't need a written standard to teach us anything does it? Of course then there's that pesky old problem of 3000 different denominations all claiming to be Christian and all claiming to have the "proper" understanding of the bible. Maybe Colin Ferguson was right when he claimed that God spoke in an audible voice instructing him to kill those people on that subway 10 years or so ago. And maybe Nat Turner was also right when he claimed it was God's will for him and his slave buddies to kill 60 or so white people using OT scriptures to justify it. So if you could, I'd like to know what 2 Peter 1:20 means if it doesn't mean that the bible interprets itself. Thanx.

That whole thing made me think about the law of believing. Do some people in the Cubs organization believe they're "cursed"? They have a good team. It seems kinda desperate to put so much importance on a 2 game series in July. In retrospect, it also seems inappropriate for Moises Alou to come unglued just because of the Bartman play last year. That affected all the fans. There was a Cardinal fan at that game sitting 6 rows in front of Bartman next to his Cub fan buddy who called a STL sports talk radio station and said that after the Bartman thing happened, him and his friend got doused with beer thrown by people in the upper deck. There was no need for an all out panic like that. Their psyche is still fragile. True, Cardinal fans have a long habit of making fun of the Cubs. There's a billboard here with the Hardees angus beef thick burger and it says little burgers are for Cub fans, plus Sammy Sosa gets his share of grief from the right field fans every time the Cubs play here (calling him Corky and stuff), but the Cardinals have a ton of respect for the Cubs current team. They lost a lot of starts for Prior and Wood yet they are still competitive. The events of this week may play out to be only a burp by the end of the season. I think Dusty Baker flies off the handle a bit too easily, but his impact on the team's collective attitude is obvious. Cardinal announcers are all unanimous in support of Ron Santo getting into the Hall of Fame, too. But that pesky law of believing, though....I don't know if it's so much the players, but somebody connected with the team thinks they really are cursed, IMO.