Watered Garden

Probably give their babies fig pep soaked in beet juice. and have wilted mustard greens for dinner.

Oddly enough, there was an incident in FWC 20 that should have alerted me that something even weirder was going on. However, it was not considered "okay." There were these two young, attractive couples in FWC 19 who appeared to be best friends. They were all attractive, but this one girl was a knockout. Not too long before we left, I was working in some room or other and one couple comes walking through, slowly, not looking at each other, and very somber. I wondered if there had been a death in the family, it was that bad. Later, the other couple comes along, equally somber. It turned out that there had been something "going on" between the knockout girl and the other husband. Not apparently overtly sexual, but she was depending on him and leaning on him instead of her own husband, according to W C*a*p the FWC coordinator at that time. I did hall patrol when the little ones were napping and had observed one or the other of them rushing down a hallway late for a meeting or work of what-have-you, but thought nothing of it. Both couples were dismissed; one couple separated for a time and eventually, both couples went back and graduated from the same FWC (I forget which one). With its rabbit warren of hallways, stairways and unused areas, Rome City was undoubtedly an adulterer's dream.

To add to Waysider's excellent though chilling account of dinner time at Fellow Laborers, you also had to eat the food that was set before you. Our first year there, a bumper crop of endive and mustard greens had been produced and it was served frequently, not as a side dish but as THE meal, after which we had to work in the garden, participate in the fun and games of the never-ending cleaning projects, etc. About 9:45 PM or so on a work night, we would be rounded up, tools cleaned and replaced, and we would head back to our apartments about 10 miles or so away for twig. By 11:00-11:30 PM we were ready to fall into bed until 5:00 AM when we had morning fellowship, announcements and ran "to the big tree and back" to arrive back at our apartments for a delicious breakfast of healthful, nutritious, homemade familia. I think for some of us the only decent meal we got was lunch on our own. There were few who had weight problems, and those who entered the program with overweight soon became skinny FLO-bots on a diet of familia and wilted greens. When available some of us would congregate at restaurants and fast food joints still open in the wee hours to get some real nourishment to prepare for the next round of exciting FLO-adventures. To this day, the sight of mustard greens or endive makes me sick. And don't even mention Swiss chard!

Well, I just have to say... "I'm proud to be an AMERICAN, where at least I know I'm free And I won't forget the men who died to give that right to me (and a few of us came across the Atlantic to participate in Operation Overlord as I recall) And I'll gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today 'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land... GOD BLESS THE U.S.A.!" Twinky, let our sorry-azz imperialist selves know the next time you feel threatened by Germany or whoever - we'll scurry across the Atlantic to save your tea and crumpets any day! Watered Garden

Waysider, I think you have to be on facebook. If you are, you just go to your profile and click on groups and then go to search and type in Victor Paul Wierwille. If you get this you will be shocked at a couple names/faces from those good old days of yesteryear; you'll want to barf up your Swiss chard! WG

Well, I went and looked at all the members. That little stroll down memory lane has given me a bowel complaint. :( Saw one girl who attends the high school my son graduated from (don't know her, he graduated in 2001), a couple of fellow fellowlaborers, couple of former limb leaders and whoopy-do important people, etc. Saw a boatload of folks stuck on stupid. I will never again get myself into a situation where a human being is placed above Christ in veneration and attention. THANK YOU GOD for getting me out of that freakin' mess!

I did know there was somewhere under a building where they stored onions and potatoes, but I never knew about all the tunnels. How awful and strange. I was creeped out by the cameras mounted about the balcony aimed at the stage where the head honcho could watch the goings on; I thought that was pretty voyeuristic. Little did I know then... Gives me cold chills to think about it... WG

I had read before about people seeing visions of the Virgin Mary on the grounds. "Our Lady of America?" Didn't see any apparitions or purple mist or anything my two unhappy all nighters as a bless patrol victim, just some owls and bats and such. But it is a very spooky place, especially out around uncle Harry hill. Any screams in the basement and dark corners were probably just the children of the FWC getting their daily thrashings. That happened a lot. The number on the door to Sister Mary's oil-bleeding room is 240; does anyone remember where that was? I thought they used every room on the 2nd and 3rd floors of the main building for dorm rooms when we were there. WG

Trained a foster kid to do his own laundry by keeping his allowance a time or two. With own child found multicolored crayons, after they made it through the dryer and ruined husband's shirts. Love notes from girls, mostly. Notifications from teachers/guidance counselors/principal which never reached the parents Note from future first wife when he was in jail promising to steal and sell his Jeep so they could run away and live happily ever after. Other various notes, including some very sexually explicit ones from a girlfriend, complete with illustrations. Thank God those days are over! WG

Cynic, Thank you for correcting my reference. I was a little hazy on this being part of the Times article or from somewhere else. I'm not going to argue with you over whether it is a satire, as the subject of this thread is not the Reverend Mr. Driscoll himself but "Men in the Church." I wasn't at the conference (no women were allowed, probably not even to fix lunch) and so I don't know if Mr. Driscoll actually did this or not. You and I have clashed before regarding Mr. Driscoll; please let's don't spoil Erkjohn's thread by doing it again. If I offend you so much you can't be civil, I will just not post on this thread again. Watered Garden

I guess it's not just calling women "chicks" so much as it is the way he uses it. Geisha if you called me "chick" or "babe" or "chica" I probably wouldn't get the impression it was a demeaning nickname. With Driscoll, it seems to be, especially when he refers to men who exercise on elliptical trainers as "chickified" or"sissy boys." I would like to see him do 45 minutes on an elliptical; believe me, it isn't all that effeminate. And I hope, in spite of the fear he may have of appearing feminine, that he flosses (and brushes) regularly; chicks don't like to suck the green stuff off the dude's teeth, dude! :P I don't want to digress any more about Mark Driscoll, though, as much as I would like to see what others think of Men and the Church as Erkjohn started this thread, but I just had to say something about the floss (again).

"Mandatory volunteering" is an oxymoron. Sounds like the Way Corps to me. We were called "volunteers" but we were voluntary slaves. But I don't think it's illegal if they can get away with it. The employers can always manufacture another reason to get rid of those who choose to object to their "volunteerism." WG

Erkjohn, this is very well written indeed! I have lots of typing to do but if you look starting about p. 12 on the doctrinal forum on the thread "Is Calvinism a Cult?" which is back there a ways on the forum, there is a lot more about Driscoll. I copied this from a post Waysider kindly looked up for me: I think it's from a NY Times article of 2009. Mark Driscoll, Pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, took a dramatic stand against girly men at a Pastor’s Conference in Houston last week. The conference, called “re:tool and re:load,” previously billed as “jesus 2.0,” featured speakers from around the country with the stated focus of “Making the Gospel and Missionlogy Relevant to Post Modern Culture.” Speaking at the last session of the conference, Driscoll focused his three-and-a-half-hour talk on the need for pastors to be more alpha. “The problem with our churches today is that the lead pastor is some sissy boy who wears cardigan sweaters, has The Carpenters dialed in on his iPod, gets his hair cut at a salon instead of a barber shop, hasn’t been to an Ultimate Fighting match, works out on an elliptical machine instead of going to isolated regions of Russia like in Rocky IV in order to harvest lumber with his teeth, and generally swishes around like Jack from Three’s Company whenever Mr. Roper was around.” “At last year’s Converging Conference, Driscoll talked about standing up when you .... and I got really excited. We started a men’s-only Bible Accountability Group. It was a combination of scripture study and Muy Thai Stick Fighting. It was great for a few weeks, until my worship pastor lost an eye. I had to make a tough call then and there: no more Muy Thai Stick Fighting at Kiona Community without protective face gear. I still think it might have been a spiritual compromise.” In Houston, Driscoll was intent on making absolutely clear that he is in favor of masculinity. At the 2 hour, 15 minute mark, he invited five pastors from the audience to take the stage, put his hands behind his back, stuck out his chin, and said, “Hit me with your best shot. Go on. I won’t hit you back. I want to show everyone what this is all about.” When none of the five took a swing, Driscoll had them escorted from the building and proceeded to hit himself five times. “This is what being a pastor is about, guys. If you can’t handle it, go back to teaching yoga or playing My Little Pony with the other girls.” The rest of the session followed the same general tone, with Driscoll ridiculing insulated coffee cups, haiku and dental floss as feminine while extolling athletic cups, tobacco spit and broken load-bearing bones as being “essential for a pastor.” As you may recall we attended an Acts 29 church plant for a couple of years. The young pastor there was fixated on Driscoll. It was scary; deja vue all over again, reminded me of the young branch leader we knew once who had the exact attitude about LCM. I do strongly believe that men should lead; I'm sure you realize I've had no problem with leadership in my own home. But, I think Mr. Driscoll has a very narrow view of masculinity and a lot of opinions on stuff that's none of his business. How is dental floss feminine? Are bad breath and rotten teeth excellent characteristics of a "dude?" IMO he misses the point. Lead but lead with love. The kind of alpha male he idealizes might also be inclined to take a swing at a wife he felt was not sufficiently submissive; someone with that kind of attitude would scare the hell out of me. And anyone who called a woman "chick" would probably lose that woman's respect. And you are so right about the emotional baggage so many men carry. It is difficult for men to express themselves when they can't show any emotion like hurt, sorrow, fear, uncertainty. I've seen Mr. Garden tear up a few times and he is a better man than Driscoll will ever be. Anyway, this might help the discussion. I'm a female (NOT A "chick") and maybe this discussion would be better if men participated in it, but I've had some secondary experience with Driscoll via the church plant we attended, and I can say with all honesty that Mr. Garden, a real man, did not like it one bit, either. WG

Well, I can personally attest that although I am still using an insulin pump, in spite of their dire predictions - I AM HEALED! I was forbidden to speak of my diabetes the last three years we were there. We were under surveillance as if we were suspected spies, criticized, complained about, and talked about. No one ever offered to help us with anything. These people were and are blind guides and false prophets. I am healed of fear and self-loathing. I am healed of false pride of being a member of the Household of Heaven's Holiest, which is one of the most evil, devilish places around. I am healed of thinking God must hate me. I am healed of being a follower of TWI. Praise be to God! WG

The author of the e-mail which caused Shellon to start this complaint is, as best I understand, presently standing forth boldly and fearlessly with the NEW Way Ministry? I will believe these people have changed when B**B L**ly, D****d Mil**n, the R***os and a few others crawl on their hands and knees up my driveway and beg my forgiveness. However, I do recognize that this is America and people have a right to worship as they please.

I got sick while I was "in" and it was because I was not sufficiently submissive to my husband. My kid had ADHD and was in rebellion and it was because he was possessed. I knew of those who died. It was because they disobeyed their husband, or their leadership, or left TWI, or stopped believing to live. Those guys have an excuse for everything and every one of their excuses is a lame lie. WG

One of the saddest, yet most despicable doctrines of devils TWI has ever come up with is to blame someone or their parents or spouse or whatever for being sick. When I was diagnosed, at least a dozen friends most of the WC grads came to see me in the hospital. Do you know how many of them offered to pray for/with me? You guessed it; not a damn one. No one! When we went back to where we lived, I asked the LC's wife about prayer and healing and she looked at me as if I were a cockroach on her kitchen counter. The snotty little bustard BL stated that anyone who left the household would die spiritually on the spot and "shortly thereafter their physical body will die also." Where do they get this stuff? I own two concordances and about five different versions of the Bible and I can't find it anywhere. Shellon, I do agree with the individual who suggested sending the nasty-gram to Rosie & Co. Perhaps if they don't want their vitriol spewed all over the internet for the world to see, they'd like to gently suggest to the writer(s) of such drivel to shut their traps! WG (((((((((Shellon & Kelly))))))))

I sure admire your attitude about all this. I'd be ready to shed someone's blood for this. NOTE TO TWI: THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL! JESUS DID NOT ADVOCATE THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOR AND HE IS OUR TUPOS, IN CASE YOU HADN'T NOTICED! Oh, yeah, I forgot: I'm supposed to be dead, too and here I am ornery as ever! WG

I can't help you then; I last saw her when she was on staff at HQ and not since. Certainly hope she's having a great life, though. WG

That's rated pretty high on the disgust-o-meter. WG

Was it Paula Burkey? I think she was divorced from Randy Burkey, though. Perhaps she remarried. WG

This absolutely amazes me. My husband teaches in high school and if there is the slightest hint of such goings-on, he addresses it with vigor, usually scaring the hell out of any potential bullying miscreant he comes across. That the school officials knew this was going on and did little if anything to stop it blows my mind. I would fire the entire school board, the superintendent, the principal and anyone else who turned a blind eye, likely because these chickies came from wealthy, socially prominent, politically influential families. "Know the whole story" the mom says. The girl is dead. That is the whole story. She's dead. Your kid helped drive her to her death. WG

I didn't know about the proposed ban on truckers smoking in their cabs. I think that's invasion of privacy, but then I think mandatory seat belt laws are invasion of privacy. I have no problem with people smoking if they want to; at the cancer hospital we used to offer to save them a bed. I am probably something of a reformed sinner when it comes to smoking. Working at the cancer hospital was one of the scariest experiences of my life. I had been an ex-smoker for years by then but still, the suffering caused by an addiction to anything is pretty bad. I worked at a hospital in the South where smokers were forced outside, and nonsmokers objected because the smokers were getting a break to go smoke while they weren't allowed breaks for any reason other than a 30 minute lunch (illegal, but true).

I quit smoking before we went in FWC but I missed it for a while in times of stress. Then I worked for 8 years at a cancer hospital. Listen to someone whose lungs are filled with tumors, blood, and fluid try to breathe and you will definitely think again. I think a private company has the right to decide based on cost controls. Smoking is one of the biggies when it comes to health care costs. I don't think it is discrimination; you cannot control the color of your skin, but you make the decision to smoke or not. The hospital where I worked offered free smoking cessation programs to its employees, but some of them smoked anyway. Then the hospital system decided to build a nice garden atrium for smokers and invited the cancer hospital to pay for part of it. Needless to say, they refused. Now the entire campus is allegedly smoke-free, though of course there are still people who stand around in their hospital gowns, holding onto their IV poles for balance, while sucking on a cigarette.

The last place we lived when we were in, the young BL barely remembered VPW, just some "old guy" who was seen from time to time. His main experience and his WC training were all under LCM, and he absolutely worshipped the man! His wife was a former "Personal Assistant to the President of The Way," he mimicked the speech patterns, postures, and attitudes of LCM, and they both gave a vague impression of being close personal friends of the LCMs, though I doubt they really were. I think this was in many ways attributable to his age (under 30)and what seemed to me personally to be somewhat of a predisposition to the same kind of cruelty and mind games and desire for power over others. He also lied and twisted facts with ease, but this may have just been SOP for leadership at that point in time. The leadership in the area that was of our age group, especially WC grads, leaped passionately upon the bandwagon of the "present truth," mostly it seemed to me out of fear of being dropped from the WC/TWI, which of course meant they leaped upon the rest of us peons like wolves on the flock. I do wonder if I ever ran across any of them, if they ever recognized their mistake in following this lunatic. I doubt it, though. wG