TheHighWay

I know that it got harder and harder for them to portray a "full auditorium" as time went on, (it became especially evident on big event weekends... they went from filling up the break-out rooms, to not opening those rooms, to not opening all of the balcony, to not allowing anyone to sit inthe balcony...) but does anyone know for sure if they ever had a hard time filling up the auditorium to begin with? I thought most of the sheep (er... faithful followers) were excited to attend SNS in the new digs? (But I was a total newbie then, so I didn't pay that much attention to such things.)

Bishop, You say those people "look" happy. Have you ever had the chance to talk to them? I have. I used to practice with them and perform with them. Yes, many of those VERY people, and on that VERY stage. They smile for two reasons: they are drilled to do so, and performing is one of the few things they get to do with their time and lives that they are good at and genuinely enjoy on a personal level. Most of them work jobs on campus they would never have chosen for themselves, and have very little say-so in their own lives. But to say any of this was brought about by Rosalie Rivenbark is a joke. They have been doing this same stuff for decades now. Nothing of any substance changed when Martindale left and she took over. Nothing. THW

Linda, I don't remember the date of the name change either but I distinctly remember Craig telling us that he wanted Vic's name added. And that while he knew VPW asked that the auditorium not bear his name, Craiggers thought it was an appropriate post-death tribute, so it was done.

Twinky... wow, you pretty much encapsulated my years of in-rez corps training! Although we did have some (minimal) training on people-handling skills, it was all based on the Dale Carnegie materials which were more about getting people to talk to you and about making a sale. NOT about how to genuinely listen to a person's problems and counsel them! And I do believe we also received a brief overview on how TWI felt we should conduct a wedding, funeral, baby dedication, etc. Not really much help when it came time to actually perform one of these important ceremonies!! I guess I should consider myself fortunate in that I also did the College Program when it was in full swing at Emporia. We did have classes on OT History, NT History, Early Church History, One God, Orientalisms, Counseling, etc. And even though the instructors were Way Corps many of them were not necessarily twi-flunkies. They came in off the field with a lot of energy and many of them were genuinely good teachers. We read a LOT of materials, wrote a LOT of papers, took a LOT of tests, and did a LOT of discussion activities. Obviously there was also a lot of twi indoctrination happening on campus and in class but the College Program was aimed at the non-corps crowd so it had a whole different feel to it. A lot less pressure to conform. A lot more fun. And of course, we were allowed to come and go on campus as we pleased. Since I went in the corps during the last half of the fog years, our training was a mixed up jumble of "keep everything the same" and "fall back on what Vic did" the first year, and "purge the household" and "don't put new wine into old wineskins" the last year. But while the "feel" was very very different between those two years, the basic curriculum was exactly as you have described it. I remember thinking a few times that I was expecting a lot more "in depth" training than I was getting, and trying to make myself focus on the "spiritual" side of the things we were doing. Like, how did the leadership know when to push us and when to let up and throw a dance? Yeah, I really thought they were walking by the spirit and I was going to somehow learn how to do that by paying close attention. Man, what a profound waste of time, money, energy, youth, and enthusiasm that all was!!!!!! (edited for typos)

Wow... I'm loving those numbers! Here's hoping most of those teens will shake loose once they hit college or a little older... TWI will never completely go away but it is good to see the steady decline.

Well, isn't this the first slogan (urr... um, theme) they've had in almost twenty years that hasn't had the word "PREVAILING" in it? How about, "Prevailing the Word's Way : God is our Sufficiency" --- that sounds so much more appropriately wayspeak to my ears, lol.

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO... this cannot be right... I don't see the word "Prevailing" anywhere!!!! Bolshevik... LOVE the reference!! :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Oh, well... that's just what I was waiting for... sign me up.

My "unbelievable" was rhetorical, really... ANYTHING is believable and done in Wayworld!! -- RIDICULOUS!!! was more my intent.

Oh, if I had a nickel for every time someone said that to me/hubby throughout the 90's... !!! Leadership LOVED to say that whenever they couldn't get the husband to do what they wanted, ESPECIALLY if the husband was allowing the wife to speak out or if he was deferring to her expertise or wisdom. Just like they would tell the wife she was being spiritually rebellious if she disagreed with her husband or the leadership over anything. Their other favorite phrase was to tell me that I needed to stop trying to wear the pants in the family. I think the first time I was told that was in 1987, about a month into in-rez training, and the last time I was told that was a few days before I was booted from twi in 2000. The funny thing is, usually the leadership agreed with whatever it was that I was doing, they just hated the fact that I was the one doing it and not my husband. That's when he would get the "grow a pair" speech, and I would get the "wearing the pants" speech. Unbelievable.

Yeah... I think a lot of us had those kinds of things in our twi-history-books. I know I have eaten a lot of crow and made a LOT of apologies since leaving their clutches. One good thing is that I'm a lot more understanding of other peoples' faults and foibles, knowing the stupid, selfish, and hurtful things I've done in my lifetime. Bravo to you for simply picking up the phone and apologizing. That alone will heal most hurts.

Ditto recollection here... nothing about cows in pfal... just something like "I don't care how you got there, I just want to see the baby!" I wonder if you are thinking about the "Johnny Lingo" movie that got played a lot... Johnny is the handsomest, most desirable man on a Polynesian island and he ignores all the pretty girls and wants to marry the girl who everyone (including her father) thinks is ugly and unruly. He pays more for her hand in marriage (10 cows, as opposed to 2 or 3) than any man has ever paid for any woman in their history, and sails away with her. When he returns she has transformed into a beautiful woman because he has made her feel special and significant by paying so much. Nice little message, put out by some Christian organization back in the sixties, I believe. But it wasn't uncommon for the corps guys to refer to women by how many cows they thought they were worth. And of course, there's the old Bible quote from Samson, "If you had not plowed with my heifer, you would not have solved my riddle," indicating that he knew they had gotten Delilah to reveal the secret. But there is no question that VP had little or no regard for women and had no problem at all degrading his wife and others in public. Or that his followers imitated him in this like they did in everything else... His references in pfal and in "The Way Living in Love" about never trusting a woman, and about how his respect for a certain gentleman went way up when he saw him berate his wife. Should have been clues to us all, like so many other clues we ignored. Oh, and there's always my personal favorite: when Vic spoke of his wife and said, "Sharp as a meatball and twice as juicy." -- This was in the context of the "Bedside Manners" seminar he was teaching to the corps so you can decide for yourself what he meant. [sorry... didn't mean to derail the thread...]

... classic enabler and co-dependent ... Agreed. But by definition you have to consider how cowed and deeply in denial an enabler is, which is how I see Dotsie. I don't believe it gives her a free pass, just a lot more sympathy than the original purpetrators. Most of us here are willing to forgive her simply because she didn't instigate, she just enabled. It is easier to see how she was a victim, like many of us were victims and are ashamed of what we did under twi's thrall. Could Vic have done it all without her being by his side? Perhaps but she gave the man and his operation a huge amount of legitimacy because of the way she conducted herself. And she certainly gave Martindale legitimacy at a time when many of us would have bolted for the door if she had shown the slightest indication that Craig was off the mark. Clearly there is no question that her enabling caused harm. But I've known women who were cowed by men who threatened, beat, and cheated on them. And they wouldn't leave them. They defended them. They blamed themselves and their own shortcomings. And we know twi did that same thing to all of us... if something is wrong, blame yourself first... a lot of us fell into that mentality and some still struggle with it today. In my opinion it takes outside validation and information (a LOT of it) to break out of the enabling pattern. And it takes a lot of inner strength. You have to be willing to go through h*!! to get out of the h*!! you are in, and some victims just never find their way out. That's why a lot of us are more lenient toward Mrs. VPW... not because she is blameless, but because that she is a lot more understandable and pathetic.

I actually know of a couple of situations where one spouse left twi, forcing a divorce. But when the second spouse eventually left twi too, the couple ended up back together. (( So there!!)) In my case, I found out (in no uncertain terms) as my marriage was ending, that my spouse had definitely married twi, not me. Over and over again he showed that he would be faithful to their dictates no matter how it cut across our marriage vows. I think his perspective was that since our marriage vows had taken place within the context of our vows to twi, his vow to twi would naturally trump any other. I know he has regrets (for instance, he deeply regrets that I copped out and filed for a divorce instead of holding fast to the Word and sticking it out no matter what he said or did). Unfortunately, that he stayed with twi is not one of them.

I never went LEAD but they were still having the corps hitch-hike to Light-Bearers through my last year in-rez (1990). We also hitch-hiked to Gunnison (a two day trip) to staff Family Camps that summer. It was during that little outing that I experienced the "ride from h*!!" and was glad to have made it off the dude's truck in one piece!! From what I heard they only cancelled hitch-hiking because the laws about no pedestrians on highways were being more strictly enforced (unlike the 70s when 'everybody' hitch-hiked).

"Little acts of courage and rebellion" -- I know I witnessed a few of these over the years and silently cheered. When LCM tried to blame a group of us for showing up late to a Way-Pub rehearsal, and one of my fellows stood up and commented that we had tried to confirm the rehearsal time (being a special weekend we assumed the SNS scheduled might be modified but couldn't find a soul to tell us if it was/wasn't or what the new times were so we all showed up at the regular time and were, as a result, late) -- that he had, in fact, called several clergy and stage personnel and left messages to get an answer, none of whom got back with him. Man, that took COURAGE in my opinion; to stand up to Martindale, in front of others, and to point the finger at leadership. Of course, he got his face melted in return and told that he had simply been too stuck in worldly ways to realize that by asking if the schedule was changed, it was really God trying to tell him to show up early and he didn't listen. (huh???) The guy sat down and shut up but I knew him well enough to know that he really saw Craig for the blow-hard he was that day. And so did I. There were a few times, after I had already mentally left twi but was still trying to get my spouse to see the light, that my local leadership got all over me about something I did that really ticked him off, and I stood toe-to-toe with the guy (who was a full foot taller and hundred pounds heavier than I) and defended myself. He would turn all red in the face and buggy-eyed, and the calmer I stayed the more p-o'd he'd get. Until I'd finally back down just to keep him from getting too suspicious of me or from throwing me out before I was ready to leave. He always made sure these confrontations were in private or well out of earshot of other believers but in hindsight I wish I'd made sure at least one of them was done in public, just to show folks that you 'could' stand up to the pompous jerk and survive. (this is the same dude I thanked when he told me I was mark-and-avoid, lol) Ahhh... happy memories!

Oh, man... if I started tallying the cost of all the classes, subscriptions, travel, obligatory moves, and lost pay for delaying my upward career mobility for 20 years... holy crap it would just be too scary to contemplate.

Now that you mention it... yes, I did have dreams about local leadership and about Martindale for about the first year after leaving. I had forgotten about it until now. I never really dreamed about these folks before I got booted but in the turmoil of trying to figure out my life afterward, yeah... they kept rearing their ugly heads. The good news is that once most of the junk was resolved for me in the real (conscious) world, the dreams also subsided. I almost never dream now which, I think, means I don't leave a lot of unfinished business hanging over my head most days. Hope your WayMares stop soon!

Well Oaks, you fooled them longer than I did... the night they announced the Allen lawsuit I, too, surfed the net and found WayDale. More importantly I found contact information for some well-placed former twi leadership that I trusted, and I started asking them specific questions. The answers I got blew me away. Between their answers, what I was reading on WayDale, and what my own gut had been telling me for a long time, I knew it was over. But, like you, I tried to "play the game" long enough to get my spouse to see what I was seeing and understand my point of view. HAH!! Since he was the 'head' and never listened to anything I had to say anyway I don't know why I thought he'd listen to "anti-way stuff" but, oh well... I did try. Not realizing that the WayGB was out there reading all our posts I detailed a few too many meeting details and altercations with leadership than I should have. Within a couple of months they had me outed and booted. Next month marks nine years. Wow, time flies when you're having fun!! (well, when you aren't giving all your time and all your money and all your energy to someone who doesn't appreciate it) Cangratulations to you, and to every one of us who has made our escape!!!

You know, when my local leadership sat me down to waggle his finger in my face and tell me I was "Mark and Avoid" and no longer welcome at any WAY function, I thanked him. (you should have seen the look on his face) Now I realize I should have followed that up with, "Oh, and can you put that in writing, please? I want to frame it." I can just imagine the smoke that would have been coming out of his ears, lol!!!!!!

Now, THAT's something worth getting a certificate for!!

Well, if they were still doling those out in 2006, I'm guessing they still are today. Lifers being rare is kinda the point... somehow they think by handing me a certificate I'm going to feel all tingley and special, and that will make me keep drinking the cool-aid for another 20 years. It doesn't get much more lame than this, folks.

YOU SAID: It's a constant battle for approval from them and I don't feel like any of my efforts matter. I always have to be on my best behavior so they can see why she fell for a guy like me. It's the same with her friends. I have to second what Tzaia said! What can be so wonderful and remarkable about this girl that makes you put up with being treated like this? This isn't the first incident. This isn't a mis-understanding. This is an active campaign by this girl's friends and family to drive a wedge between the two of you and SHE is LETTING THEM do it. Sorry, but if this is how she is behaving now, it ain't gonna get any better!

Caleb, Let me say I am really glad that you are here. It is obvious you have strong feelings for your group and your beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that. But frankly, if you are one of the students in the SOWERS group I am guessing you are pretty young and your life's experience is pretty limited. You know only what you have been exposed to by your parents and those they allowed around you. I can only hope that when you are older, you do not look back on your experiences and realize that you wasted prime years of your life giving your focus, energy, love, and best efforts to a man or a group that was as self-serving and down-right evil as they come, which is what happened to most of us on this forum. Now, to address some specifics: Not favorable toward TWI and DocVic, agreed (for the most part) Not favorable toward the Word in general, mmmm... really? I think you will find a great many practicing Christians here. The only "word" they are unfavorable towards is the bolloxed-up mess that was taught as "the word" in twi. Yeah... that's polite and respectful. You come to an OPEN forum and demand WE play nice, then YOU make threats. Is this the example set by your leadership? Or is this just the heavy-handed tactic you think will work best with a bunch of cop-outs? Perhaps the acorn really doesn't fall very far from the tree. First, I am not aware of anyone on this forum "accusing" V2P2 of anything, except of following a format of teaching and doctrine that is eerily close to his grandad's. And that's not an accusation, that's a fact. The rest of the comments are simply speculation; rude and rough at times, I'll grant you, but nothing like an actual accusation. No, we don't know the up-close-and-personal content of what is being taught at SOWERS, that is true. But after spending years of our lives being told "black is white" and "white is black" most of us now think "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it sure as heck isn't an elephant"! So, understand, while you say your humble leader is loving and gentle and kind and "knows his stuff" well, we know where a lot of his "stuff" came from so we have a really hard time believing you. --- Let me clarify: we believe you THINK these things and are genuine in your own personal assessment, we just think we have more long-term experience and understanding of the whole picture than you do, so it's hard to put much faith in what you are saying. Well, this may indeed be the whole measure of the man. But many of us could have said (and DID say) the same of DocVic only to later discover how misled we were and how two-faced he was and how much damage he was doing to our brothers and sisters in Christ behind the scenes. I can only hope you are correct in your assessment of Vic the grandson. But many of us here have to ask: if he is such a Godly man, why the heck is he imitating methods and programs set up by his very unGodly grandfather?

Cindy, I hate to say it but I agree with the other posters... pay was not guaranteed when the leave time was given, according to current law. If the boss offered the time off, and the employee assumed it was paid, it really is unfortunate but unless the boss made it clear the time off was WITH pay, there is probably nothing that can be done about it.