Lifted Up

I remember doing what was supposed to be the second hardest of five climbs in NM. It was really harder than number one, except for an inverted ledge on that number one climb. As I struggles up number two, I heard the climber on number one yell up triumphantly, "I've made it to THE LEDGE>" ... after which came bsck the call from above, "Well make it OVER the ledge."

I know years ago that mass had to be given in Latin, right? As one uninformed who doesn't go, is that still done much or at all?

I know TWI used to be more active in several other countries, as it also used to be more active in the U.S. I remember hearing about fellowships from fellow 8th corps who came from Germany and Austrailia, as well as from the 9th corps Brit whose nice warm hat I lost on LEAD in 1979. More recently, I have communicated with a Russian who remembered a TWI fellowship...and that does not include my old first corps roomie who had connections there...BTW Jardinero, if you are around, found anything yet?

Back again to the original post...Linda, you mentioned only two people whom you knew...at least one of whom you knew only years ago...as reasons that changed your mind. I am curious; did not the well known (or so I thought) anonymous "Marsha" account influence your thinking?

It probably will be. Another cold front may be approaching by then...but it doesnt look too strng right now as far as being a rain producer. It may however bring the coldest air of the young winter season so far to climes further north...probably not a lot of snow except maybe a ton in some of the lake effect areas. Most of Floriday should be pretty nice though.

Gamma is forecast to remain well below hurricane strength because of significant wind shear...that is, fairly strong upper level winds, not an unusual happening down there this late in the fall. Those winds typically prevent the storm from developing its own deep circulation to a great extent, and prevent the individual storms from merging around the center. Also, neither the sea water nor the air will be as warm as they were a month or two ago. Sometimes such a storm can strengthen significantly if it merges with a strong non tropical storm, or with a cold front, such as may be approaching Florida in a few days. However, it is extremely unlikely that Gamma would strengthen into a major hurricane, or the non trpoical equivalent thereof. Such a merger of a tropical storm and a non tropical system produced the storm years ago that was the basis for The Perfect Storm. This of course occured well out over the ocean.

It's official........GAMMA!

I wouldn't knock Grant and Lee, unless you want to knock everyone else who believes the Bible and is not a pacifist. And, maybe you would...I don't know. Either way, here is a quote from another principal player in the same bloodletting you refer to, upon being presented with a Bible... "In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book." Abraham Lincoln

Here are some more...I like particularly John Wesley's logic. It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” George Washington “I am sorry for men who do not read the Bible every day. I wonder why they deprive themselves of the strength and pleasure.” Woodrow Wilson “Hold fast to the Bible as the sheet anchor of your liberties, write its precepts on your hearts and practice them in your lives.” Ulysses S. Grant “The Bible is a book in comparison with which all others are of minor importance, and which in all my perplexities and distresses has never failed to give me light and strength.” Robert E. Lee “If we will not be governed by God, then we will be ruled by tyrants.” William Penn “The more profoundly we study this wonderful book [the Bible], and the more closely we observe its divine precepts, the better citizens we will become and the higher will be our destiny as a nation.” William McKinley “Education is useless without the Bible.” Daniel Webster “A thorough understanding of the Bible is better than a college education.” Theodore Roosevelt “That Book (the Bible) is the rock on which our Republic rests.” Andrew Jackson “It is necessary for the welfare of the nation that men's lives be based on the principles of the Bible. No man, educated or uneducated, can afford to be ignorant of the Bible.” Theodore Roosevelt “If there is anything in my thoughts or style to commend, the credit is due to my parents for instilling in me an early love of the Scriptures. If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity.” Daniel Webster “I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily.” Sir Isaac Newton “Those who sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety are not deserving of either liberty or safety.” Ben Franklin “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people...so great is my veneration of the Bible that the earlier my children begin to read, the more confident will be my hope that they will prove useful citizens in their country and respectful members of society.” John Adams “It is impossible to mentally or socially enslave a Bible reading people. The principles of the Bible are the groundwork of human freedom.” Horace Greeley “Believe me, sir, never a night goes by, be I ever so tired, but I read the Word of God before I go to bed.” Douglas MacArthur Scriptures.” Sir Ambrose Flemming “To the influence of this Book we are indebted for the progress made in civilization, and to this we must look as our guide in the future.” Ulysses S. Grant “England has two books; the Bible and Shakespeare. England made Shakespeare, but the Bible made England.” Victor Hugo “No lawyer can afford to be ignorant of the Bible.” Rufus Choate “It has been my custom for many years to read the Bible in its entirety once a year“ John Quincy Adams “Of the many influences that have shaped the United States into a distinctive nation and people, none may be said to be more fundamental and enduring than the Bible.” Ronald Reagan “I believe that the Bible is to be understood and received in the plain and obvious meaning of its passages; for I cannot persuade myself that a book intended for the instruction and conversion of the whole world should cover its true meaning in any such mystery and doubt that none but critics and philosophers can discover it.” Daniel Webster “This book had to be written by one of three people: good men, bad men or God. It couldn’t have been written by good men because they said it was inspired by the revelation of God. Good men don’t lie and deceive. It couldn’t have been written by bad men because bad men would not write something that would condemn themselves. It leaves only one conclusion. It was given by divine inspiration of God.” John Wesley “People say that the Bible is a boring book…but they don’t say that about Shakespeare, because the people who teach Shakespeare are zealous for Shakespeare.” Malcolm Muggeridge “Almost every man who has by his lifework added to the sum of human achievement . . . has based his life-work largely upon the teachings of the Bible.” Theodore Roosevelt “All Scripture is God-breathed and He doesn’t waste His breath.” Jim McCotter “Tell your prince that this book is the secret of England's success.” Queen Elizabeth “The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state.” Harry S. Truman “There is no other book so various as the Bible, nor one so full of concentrated wisdom. Whether it be of law, business, morals, etc.... He who seeks for guidance ... may look inside its covers and find illumination.” Herbert Hoover “A single line in the Bible has consoled me more than all the books I ever read besides.” Immanuel Kant “I have known ninety-five of the world's great men in my time, and of these eighty-seven were followers of the Bible.” W. E. Gladstone

Hey, Bluesunday, are you anywhere in this universe?????

Hey Peruser, where does that leave us umpires???

Whatever Dale is on to...if anything...he is saying, almost it seems in answer to this thread, that it IS a big deal. And I really didn't see anything too new here.

There must be a time limit on editing one's own post. No big deal. I meant to add, maybe the subtitle of this thread can just as easily be stated, "Is your faith in question if Jesus is not really God after all?"

Okay, Oak. The reason I asked was that I was wondering if some believed what was taught in TWI, it wasn't only because VPW or LCM or someone else said it was true, but because everyone around us was accepting what was said as well. That is, if everyone says it is true, it must be. Kind of like the per pressure you mentioned, but when you used that term Iguess I thought it more as not necessarily believing it, but not speaking up for fear of being ostracized (sp?). Not a lot of difference probably. But if we were taught rightly in TWI, it' still the wrong reason to believe something IMO. And it (most people believing something because everyone else talks about it as if it were established fact) can happen in other realms, such as GS, or American public opinion, etc.

I know there is a lot of hair raising on both sides when someone asserts their beliefs in the subject. despite being raised in the Methodist Church, I never believed that Jesus Christ was God. Maybe it was partly because of it...indoctrination on lower levels was never too big, and Sunday School classes were more, well, light than anything else, even when the Bible was taught. But the senior pastor at the Methodist Church I went to for a while after TWI in the early 80s didn't believe it either. When I found out, of course I never pressed the issue with anyone else that he didn't believe it. He let it slip quietly during a membership class. I don't think anyone else in the class cared, for the same reason...indoctrination on that level didnt happen. But I can imagine how that would have shaken up the higher ups. At that point, it is possible that he didnt care as much if people found out, as he was near retirement.

Hey Cat, I wonder if TheEvan went down there twice? I vaguely recalll a mooning incident on my trip, but it couldnt have been the same one from your description. besides, I think this one was on the road to the place, well before we got there. But I dont remember who did it. Come back and maybe I'll find some tuna for ya....

There's some minor excitement around Jackrabbit land with now division I SDSU (South Dakota State) getting to travel to play Illinois next week. I guess it is Illinois' opener but not for SDSU as they get to be creamed by kentucky first (This Sunday). These creamings are just a price that has to be paid to step up I guess. My school...the men's basketball (not football) doormat of the Big Ten...will get their turn to be smashed by Illinois once during the winter. I suppose they will have to make up for the horrendous damage we inflicted on them during the football season. Anyway I dont see any threads for Illini footbal, heh heh.

Oak, if I adjusted that statement slightly to say that you won't believe something only because everyone around you says it is true, would that be a fair change, or not? In any event, that could apply to a lot of subjects besides religion. As a corollary, I suppose there are people who will disbelieve something only because someone says it is tru, at least in certain cases.

One thing I have not really seen knocked about the government regarding the historic hurricane barrage this year...and rightly IMHO...was the performance of the forecasting from the tropical Prediction center/National Hurricane Center. Other than the fine tuning in the 10 to 30 or so mile range, they pretty much had the major storms tabbed several days ahead. As a relative oldie (relative??!!), I remember back in the 60s when hurricanes appeared in the southern Gulf of Mexico, and even more so in the Carribean, how all of the Gulf Coast was put on alert until the storm was fairly close and its path obvious. Even in those cases, Hurricane warnings and watches were often issued for much wider areas than they are today, for possible last minute major changes in direction. In contrast, they had Katrina very well pegged to move across the Florda straits and into the Gulf, then make its northward curve, from the time it started. After a day of projecting the storm into the western Florida panhandle, the forecast was slightly adjusted to target the area just east of and very close to new Orleans, and this forecast was on the button. A mass evacuation of New Orleans was able to be planned several days ahead of time. The handling of [/i]that is beyond the scope of my post, but can anyone imagine the screaming that would have been going on had New orleans been evacuated and Katrina had hit, say, the south texas Coast. While the cost and inconvenience of this evacuation pale compared to the cost and damage done by this historic event, I guarantee that had nothing happened, there would have been a lot of screaming and finger pointing. Thirty ot forty years ago this could not have been done with such advance notice. Likewise Rita, from its beginning, was forecast accurately to move southwest into the Gulf of Mexico, then curve northwest to hit the north texas or Western Louisiana coast. And Wilma, from the start, was forecast to hit Yucatan, weaken briefly, then move north and northeast, strengthen again over the Gulf, and hit south Florida. This is exactly what it did. I guess many consider this a routine thing...like, we pay our taxes, they had better get it right. But 40 years ago, the resources were just not there...in the form of satellites, computer models, knowledge of hurricanes, and several other factors, to do more than put the whole region on alert. And obviously it was impractical to evacuate Galveston, New orleans, Mobile, Tampa, and Miami at one lick just because it was uncertain which of these areas, if any, a hurricane would hit.

Another thing on the work and resulting appetites it produced. On one lunch break there were three extra sandwiches. As soon as it was announced that they would go to the first three pairs who sang for them, I grabbed my old Indy and lightbearters buddy Pxxx (General Patton) Cxxxxx, and we sang a duet of his Irish Jig version of "Family of God", and split one of the sandwiches.

Obviously he had various crops...you remember onions but there were nothing but peppers on my trip. I remember pepper fights....mostly with large rotten red bells. I also remember someone proving themselves by chewing openly on a mouthful of the hottest peppers in TX...dont rememebr which ones but they made jalapenos seem dead. Come to think of it, I never have liked spicy food too much, but i sure downed that genuine TX chili with the peppers in it, because the work was making me hungrier than you know what. Getting up to go to the porta john in the middle of the night was an adventure. Once I founf the wrong one. It was empty when I went in, but soon I got the door opened on me. Anyway, thanks. I remember TWI didnt actually own it, but I couldnt remember if whoever did was associated with TWI at all or not. So, do you or does anyone know how long this association lasted?

As I remember it was not far from Hale center, which is a little north of Lubbock. As in residence 8th corps, we got to go there for a week and (on my visit) pick peppers.

I don't remember, if I ever knew in the first place...what exactly was it's association with TWI and how long did that last, beyond my in residence visit there in October 1977? And, did anyone besides me have any interesting experiences there? I will share mine if this thread doesn't die quickly (I rarely start a thread), but first I am interested in that first question. If I have missed a discussion of this due to the occasional nature of my posting, please refer me to the appropriate thread.

Well, South America and Africa aren't the only places. For some reason we have been flooded with "Austrailian Naval Oranges" for some time. One of my sons likes fresh oranges, but he didn't like these. He like the California ones much better...and he did not know where either came from before he ate them. Maybe he inherited some of my California blood (I was borh there)...but I don't really think it was that.

Exactly. And I can only repeat what I posted earlier, on the post where I posted the link... And as long as I mentioned that link, here is another one, as there has been a fair amount of info posted on this story. I will not comment on the defense itself...post traumatic stress disorder rooted in desert Storm...because I do not know much about that. But it doesn't make any difference to the victims, does it? There is a note in this story about there having been domestic problems, but "there was never any physical violence". Three things about this statement: The story also notes that he kept her isolated, so can they know that there was NEVER any physical violence? Secondly, (admitted speculation here) can we trust such a statement coming from those who would lose much if it were learned there were violence and little was done? Thirdly, the scars of abuse that is not physical, though less evident to the eyes, can be as great as physical violence or a precurser to it. I guess I shouldnt say as great without exception. Obviously in this case there will be no recovery from the physical violence for the victim. Well, enough babbling I guess. Here's the link.