Lifted Up

They are making a movie (again, "The Producers" was originally a movie) using almost all of the Broadway cast. It begins filming the last day in February or in March.

Okay. Well my deprogrammers took delight in trying to detail just monetarily what TWI cost me...throwing in not just the relatively small sum I gave, but what I would have had if I had not gone into TWI, the corps, etc. Ignoring of course what I would have spent and given through other means had I not been in TWI. I wont go into my views on that right now, but I will point out that even if you took their (the deprogrammers') figures, it was a paltry thing copared to what some have lost for their faith...such as my wife's family. Or Paul for that matter.

So are we dealing with what faith in Christ has cost us, or TWI, or both, or what? I have my own ideas of what I personally gained or lost from TWI, and I have plenty of personal witnesses around me whose faith (unassociated with TWI) has cost them, in line with dmiller's comments about persecution.

Would Elisha have been a good example to compare to VPW, since it was under his (Elisha's) "ministry" than Naaman was healed?Gehazi and his screw-ups fit the mold better, but he was not really involved in the healing.

Gehazi was simply the servant of Elisha, under whose ministry, if you would call it that, Naaman was healed. Gehazi, as far as I can tell, was not even involved indirectly in ministering the healing, but came into the picture after the event. Elisha at one point sent "a messenger" to Naaman with the instructions to dip in the Jordan seven times. Then, after Naaman followed those instructions (needing prodding from his own servants), he was healed and returned to Elisha. After Elisha sent Naaman on his way, then Gehazi takes off after Naaman to grab what he thinks is his chunk of the pie. What could have raised eyebrows is Elisha's message to the King of Israel...after the King of Syria had sent the message asking the King of Israel to heal Naaman...saying "Let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel." Here is someone claiming to be the man of God. But he backed it up pretty well. I do think it was Naaman's faith that got him the healing; after his own servants set him straight at least. But Elisha's ministering sure didn't hurt.

This just now happened to me...Got a notice about an overdue bill. Because I got this notice, I'd better pay up. Or, in other words, if you have an overdue ballance on your account...??? If you get a notice, pay the bill. Does it follow... If you don't get a notice, pay the bill if you want to. ????

I have a problem with Luke 17...or more likely with my following it...any help? Seriously, I try to put myself in the place of having someone wrong me, and apologizing, and I forgiving them, then having that same person wrong me again and again and again...to 7 times...and each time coming back and saying "I'm sorry." Quite honestly, I would have trouble believing that repentance. Anyone see where I am coming from? But Jesus said forgive. Maybe I am not the judge of his/her true repentence (or lack thereof), even if I am the one who has been wronged? When does anyone DESERVE forgiveness? We of course dont deserve God's. I think forgiveness may be a gift. I am told to forgive, but I don't know if the person has really repented or not. Maybe the person is forgiven if he/she accepts the gift by repenting, even though there may be no way for me to know if he/she has REALLY repented. That is, whether I or someone else has been wronged, I don't know their heart...only God knows.

Right RG. I think that some took your question asking as a rhetorical thing...that is, that you were implying what the answer should be. I didnt see it that way.

Oh, and RG, I may take violin lessons so I can play for you. I'll see your 12 to 17 hour days and raise you four teenagers in the house (true in 20 days).

RG, I think I realize the tone of your original thread, and tell me if I am wrong. It wasn't from the viewpoint of being required to forgive, resulting in the debate as to whether people have deserved or earned forgiveness. It was about the idea of freely forgiving, because it will benefit the forgiver. In other words...there is so much talk about whether or not we are required to forgive...but why not try it anyway even if you are not required, whether or not the person has earned it, because, again, it will help you. I don't think we should tell people they have to forgive no matter what the hurt, but I dont think you were doing that.

agreed JT.

"dried up and was gone" is a straightforward description, not leaving any room for becoming "less noticeable". Now, if Ex10 were a lover of VPW who believed he never did any wrong, then it would be easy to accuse her of lying, or even remembering what she wanted to remember. But I think she would have her own words for such a description of her. Now, if by perception you mean the assumed reason that the sore was healed completely in a couple of hours after several days of stressing over it, have at it. Just nature, I guess. Linda's description is just as straightforward...though I really suppose you think she turned a little scratch into a nasty, deep facial cut for her post.

BTW Mo, could you check your PT?

Of course the healing was real. And of course God did the healing, whether VPW or one of us or anyone ministered it.

As I mentioned, I was referring to the testimonies by Linda and Ex10 which were just before your original post. Do you not believe their accounts? I do, because it is their first hand testimony...neither is talking about what someone else saw, or what bad or good thing happened to someone else...yes, we have a lot of that happening on GS. But each witnessed the healing, one being healed herself. And I guarantee you that neither closes her eyes to wrongs that happened in TWI, including the faults of VPW.

I made no reference to the number of VPW healings because I do not know. I suppose trying other forums or sources would help to get an idea. My point was not the significance of the healings testified to on this thread, or that they testified to VPW's character; it was that some, such as George, who posted after these testimonies were given, do not want to acknowledge that any real healings occurred. It is as if the thought is alien or impossible to swallow that ANY occurred. Note your original question (Did ANYONE witness...?) seemed to make this tone; that is, you were asking if it ever happened at all...your question wasnt how many. About the hard to swallow part...I noticed that cough of yours. These testimonies of VPW healings would not disprove in the least any reliable testimony of TWI hurt. In fact, testimonies of hurt or anything else are much more believable coming from those who dont ignore(pretend they didnt see) testimony or anything else they see just because it doesnt fit their good ot bad ideal of VPW or TWI.

I guess it is hard for someone who will never acknowledge anything good, even incidental, in TWI to acknowledge Linda's and EX10's accounts as not lies, just as it is hard for someone who worships TWI to acknowledge any accounts of the bad. Well , you are now "aware" of these accounts. OF COURSE it doesnt change or invalidate in the least accounts of the bad in TWI, but it did happen (IMO anyway because I believe Linda's and Ex10's accounts) , and for some it seems hard to accept, even though they could minimize the significance of these accounts as they wished.

But I didn't say I would stop there, did I?

I put the 8th corps thread on top in answer to someone's question on that thread, so I could be a sport and put the 9th back on top...

Oka, but it will be a haphazard listing... Phil Colvin, Paul Brooks, Lonnie Nelson (went to 9th later), David Wilensky, Beatrice Chamberlain, Vini Roccosalvo, Peg Kelley, Helen Gallego, Wolfgang Schneider, Karen DeVincent, Rene Cole, Patrice Blessing, Steve Roberts, Cindy Roberts, Steve Morrison, ZBrad & Christine Thorpe... I can think of more right now but don't feel like going overboard, plus not sure it's a great idea to try to give even a small partial roster. My name isnt in there; anyone can find it out, preferably while revealing theirs also, by e-mailing me at... smile092850@hotmail.com

I gotta make at ;east one post today, and it may as well be on this thread. Let Washington get the Expos. It would probably be better than getting the Rangers back.

That's why I'm an umpire...doesn't that make me a high priest of this religion?

Some of us don't have much to talk about here anymore. The kid's season is LONG over here, the Indians' season has been over since the day I came in here spouting off about how well they were playing because they were about to play the Twins to go to a ties for first, and I couldn't care less if baseball moves the Expos to Washington to replace my long lost Senators whom Bob Short hijacked to TX in the early '70s.

Repeat from two posts above.

I think the 5th corps had 87. The 6th went above 300 with Emporia avaiable, the 7th was also above 300. The 8th was down a little at 250 or 260 I think, then the 9th and 10th were back up. After that, ?????