Lifted Up

Good work both of you! Dunno if I'll be able to make it with my brood. Unless maybe it will be in Lincoln the weekend of my sons' regional Magic tournament in late June. But as specific plans apparently have not been made, I suppose it will be further down the road.

Can smiles make up for not finding the words? :)--> :)--> :)--> :)--> :)--> :)--> :)--> :)--> :)--> :)-->

There you are. Bluesunday, you were always ingenious (that skit was totally your idea), but just in case, do you know how to send the private topic that WG requested?

If the snow happened, and if it were a miracle of God for VPW, then it could have happened in July. But let's get to some meteorological aspects of this... Actually, there have been rare but recorded instances of snow falling in the middle of summer...outside of the mountaintops. What happens is that in a thunderstorm, a strong downdraft is cooled by precipitation, so that the melting process of the snow that starts ten or fifteen thousand feet up is slowed dramatically, and the snow reaches the ground as such. Extremely rare, with any frozen precipitation almost always in the form of hail, which takes much longer to melt, but snow has reached the surface in those rare cases. (Interestingly enough, a DRY thunderstorm downdraft can warm dramatically, producing a heat burst at the surface, where the temperature warms to above 100 degrees even in the middle of the night. This happened in Pierre, SD 20 or so years ago, but has happened several other times as well.) As for the snow VPW described, it fits the description of your common snow shower or squall, in which the visibility drops suddenly to near zero in blinding snow, but the event passes often in less than five minutes. Any snow accumulations are light due to the very brief nature of the event, and can also be very very localized...not occurring anywhere close to a weather observing station perhaps. I remember a couple of those at HQ in late fall of 1979; once while I was out running. It was almost like a solid wall approaching and hitting. In September in Ohio it would, meteorologically speaking, be very hard for this kind of event to occur, but I wouldnt say impossible. Perhaps somewhat harder than it would be to get an inch of snow on my September birthday (1985) because that happened in South Dakota. IF it were a message from God to VPW, then why couldn't it have happened? And, while God knows His business better than I do (ha ha ha ha on the understatement), I wouldnt think that a sudden snow shower in January would carry the same message. If it werent from God, and/or VPW made it up, then it doesn't matter how meteorologically impossible it was.

One very notable thing about 1975-77 Indy was the hordes of medwows, partly inspired I guess by Dr. W. (not Wierwille)

So do I. That is why I would like to see it. The person who said that he'd love to hear from people who went through it (deprogramming), then ignored the subject when he found out that I considered it a terrible experience, did not go through the experience himself.

At Emporia a groups composed of some of us 8th corps and some C. of E. students spent lots of spare time learning and rehearsing a song and dance routine to "Joyfulness" over a month or so , but we never fully completed or performed it. One of the problems is that we four men were getting our steps down pat quickly, but the women were having lots of problems. Maybe I ought to try one of those step dance machines.

Wow, you all let the eighth corps thread stay at the top continuously for over 44 hours...must be a record.

Another key phrase Belle used was "because nothing else has worked". Well, in my case, nothing else was tried...too much Jim Jones fear flying around. But I bring this up because time was evidently not considered when deprogrammings were done or attempted...that is, trusting an adult to make his/her own decisions, even if it is not what the family members or others consider a desirable decision. Of course, many were allowed to make their own decisions, and many eventually decided to leave TWI on their own without being yanked out. They decided such often, to be sure, because of bad things going on. But the idea behind the deprogrammings was that nobody could or would ever decide to leave on their own, no matter how bad things got, because we were completely controlled. Thus, time was not given a chance because the Lifton doctrine said it would never work. What I would like to see is someone pitching in who went through a deprogramming and did/does NOT view it as a terrible thing. IMO that does not justify deprogramming such as I went through in the least, but we could have an interesting discussion. Actually, I had some of thoise discussions, to some extent anyway, with someone who was around the forums a few years ago.

24 hours at the top for a non 9th corps thread??? What is GS coming to?

Well it be good news if such a discussion really is the "final step". Unfortunately for me, it wasn't in my time. That amount you quoted does indeed seem "astronomical" to me. The key words being, plus expenses. If you have to bring several people in, as was done in my deprogramming, expenses can run up. In the "discussion" that you describe, it wouldnt be quite so bad. But 5 to 8 grand a day BEYOND expenses, even if it were split between four or so people (which I doubt, since you said YOU were lining up the other people) does seem more like a get rich quick scheme. Especially when someone may be "willing to pay whatever he would have charged".

...and that looks like a branch picture. Maybe from the ones that were done and which became part of the corps gift which I later saw at HQ. I was an unperson because I was at the TX farm when they were done and never got into a retake.

Of course the voluntary part is much better in principle, because you are not being physically forced to listen. I would be interested in the nature of Mr. Hassan's "sit down and listen", specifically how many people are involved in such a discussion. Even in a voluntary event, if you are sitting in a circle with four or five people primed to counter any argument i favor of staying in TWI, I would have been inclined to close it all out for that reason; whereas if he can get someone involved in an honest one on one discussion, then I think I might have been more inclined to listen. But then, I am someone who had no choice but to face the small army of deprogrammers ready to throw anything back at me. As for the money the deprogrammers get, strangely enough, I don't think that receiving compensation beyond expenses by itself destroys their presumed motive of helping people, just like teachers are entitled to be paid a decent wage. The problem here is that what they did to me was not help. And, if that compensation is , as in Belle's word, astronomical, then my eyebrows just might be raised.

Hey, Blue Sunday, are you around??? I was really looking forward to hearing more about your WOW year misadventures, because I remember how gung ho you were when you set off for that year.

Basically, you seem to be saying that the existence of first hand testimony lends credibility to all the accounts of abuse suffered by others...that is, not by the person giving the account. And, of course, for someone who has suffered abuse, it is easy as you say to believe accounts of abuse to others, even if those accounts are given by others. But this, IMO, is like the proverbial preaching to the choir. To provide real information to those outside the circle of abuse, it is the testimony of real people...that is, not anonymous and not someone talking about someone else's experience...that can convince others. Others, such as those outside the TWI fold, those considering TWI involvement (the original subject of this thread), and even those such as me who had the TWI experience, but did not experience the worst of what people keep talking about. Or, when I hear something talked about time and again, as though it were established fact, but can never get the least bit of first had testimony, I am naturally going to be skeptical. Especially when I am told, as noted earlier, that I will have to keep listening to all the non-first-hand accounts and accept them because if I didn't believe them I wouldnt believe the first hand account, then my skepticism changes to doubt. Second and third and nth hand testimony given by HUNDREDS can be just more people talking about the subject and agreeing among themselves. I will not deny someone's first hand account of any horors he/she may have gone through. And, once I have gotten that far, it is much easier to put myself in that person's shoes and imagine just how horrible their experience was. I think you are that kind of person; and I'll never forget the understanding and support you (among some others) gave me when I told of my deprogramming experience several years ago...as I mentioned on the current deprogramming thread. Anyway, maybe it IS because of the climate at GS, that so many are "like-minded" if you will, that it is at times felt that personal testimony isn't needed. If there is some of that around in the first place.

...and to answer a question posed in the initial post of this thread, yes, I think they had my best interests at heart. That is a great thing to have, but it is also what the fear that Oak mentioned plays on. The problem is that he fear installed is so great, they are convinced that your bests interests cannot be served by letting you decide.

These two factors were direct reasons for my deprogramming, which took place in December 1979, in the shadown of Jim Jones. As for the doctrine thing, the "Jesus Christ is not God" thing had its own share of the fear factor.

I must include Garth in the above list of those appreciated.

Exactly. I was told by my deprogrammers that the reason it had to be done that way...forceful grabbing and holding against my will...was that neither I or anyone else ever would or could leave on my/their own, because we were under complete mind control...a la Lifton...and were not capable of deciding to leave, no matter how bad things got. I've always appreciated people like Oak, and back in Waydale days Groucho Marx Jr., people not shy (understatement) in their descriptions of wrongs in TWI, but knowing that the deprogramming "solution" was in the same nature of wrongs. They make up for another individual who, after saying that he'd love to hear fromthose who went through it, ignored me when I described the experience as, well, not beneficial.

Nope, my flying experience is limited to a very few rides given by pilots who are grateful (I hope) for all the weather information we have provided to them over the years.

Look who's talking about someone else tripping...heh heh.

I missed this one somehow the first time around. This says it exactly. Cat caps the "TO YOU", even though it is obvious...if you talk about what happened to someone else, it is not first hand testimony. And especially, in the web world of GS ( and any other web group) where we don't really know each other at all if we have not had further personal contact, the attitude that you have to accept what people say about others as the gospel without question, leads to disbelief of what some like to headline with WE KNOW, or These are the FACTS. Phrases like that raise red flags, just as they do with many regarding TWI doctrine and policy.

I do a lot of weather briefings for our local balloon pilots, who can get pretty active when the weather is right. Of course, they need pretty light winds, so that is usually the critical factor. That is, if it is raining or snowing or foggy, they usually don't need us to tell them, although often in planning ahead we do let them know if their planned time has potential. About four years ago, I got first hand experience on the wind factor. One of our pilots gave me a ride, along with two others, on a flight in which he led a big balloon race. The idea is that he set the mark, and the others would vie to see who could land closest to him. The weather was clear on a march morning that was cool at the surface ( about freezing) but warm a couple thousand feet up (in the 50s). The balmy effect is accentuated by the fact that, as you go up, you of course dont feel the wind much...you are riding with it. You just feel an occasional breeze as the wind shifts with altitude. However, that morning, the winds in the cool air at the surface were picking up stronger than I expected, and we had to land in about a 15 mph wind...strong enough to scratch the flight had we known about it beforehand. Fortunately, it was a dry March, and we had lots od dry and relatively bare cornfields to choose from on landing. The only problems were avoiding the power lines on landing...and obviously the landing speed. My pilot friend put us two guys in the front (windward) so when we landed, and dragged some distance upon landing before the friction stopped us, the two of us were on the bottom in the tipped over gondola, with the two women on top of us. Kind of fun, but not something most balloon pilots want to repeat routinely.

Sounds like something that might be from "The Longest Yard", but I know that movie pretty well, and I don't remember that quote. So I am not even gonna make it an official guess.

It wasn't that bad to me, but then I am somewhat of a cold weather friend. Also, there was plenty of hay in the barn. Besides the chicken dinners, which I may have to recount (again) if Shell keeps bugging me --> , on that trip I took a sacrificial wet foot for my group. It was this exercise where everyone held onto a long rope as we hiked around a "hazardous" path. If one person let the rope touch the ground (or water), the whole group had to start over. I slipped on a rock crossing a small stream, and instead of using my arms to steady myself, I kept my grip on my part of the rope and let my foot slip down into the stream. I guess that was supposed to show how dependent we were on each other. And then there was the "appreciate freedom" exercise, in which we were subject to the whims of our dictator, "Lord Dave" B. in my case.