Sorry. I am talking about his last teaching recorded in the KJV, after the ascension, given to and recorded by some John dude on an island.
Whether or not it was the last teaching appearance he has made since the first century is another subject, quite outside the bounds of your thread topic.
But the subject might make enlightening discussion. I'll leave that up to you. ;)-->
I finally realized, that if one is gonna brag about writings that are to usher in the next administration, one should also be able to explain those now-obsolete writings that already claim to do the job.
Master 5 senses before spiritual revelation, and all that. ;)-->
But I?ll keep this short, seeing as how you are limited on time. I hope you see how it pertains to your thread.
---
Towards the end of the first century, John writes that Jesus Christ himself sent him a spiritual message (angel).
Yes, this would make it the last recorded teaching of Jesus Christ in the KJV. (Although I doubt it is the last thing he has ever taught or done since. Thief in the night, blessings beyond Israel, and all that.)
The book is written with the strongest style of symbolism and figures of speech.
Remember how important those are? God uses them to emphasize a point, right? These points must be big then.
John is describing images (And I recall that Ezekial studied the shapes of his vision for a full month before he got the words for it).
And heerz an important biblical research principle at work somehow:
?The time is at hand,? is a condition set forth by John in the third verse of the whole book.
To John, that must mean "now," right?
Then, the revelation expresses the condition of and wisdom for the seven churches in Christ?s hand.
7 churches in HIS hand? Not just 1 church?
Then, the book expresses a heavenly view of Christ?s ascension. Looking backward in time, I guess. And there?s a real pantheon of critters present. Elders (not angels)? Beasts at the foot of the throne? I swear, one must represent a monkey or something (a beast with a face like a man?). :P-->
Then there is a NEW song sung in heaven.
Then some never-before broken seals are broken immediately after the ascension.
So, we might assume that they have been broken ever since? Or has the universe frozen on REV 6:1 for 2k years?
Anyway, it goes on and on with signs, seasons, days and years.
A treasure of fun symbolism to track down and ponder.
Great applications for life.
Great historical insight.
---
But...
Why would God and Jesus go through all the trouble of delivering this complex angelic message about 1900 years ago if none of it applies?
Hasn?t PFAL got to jive with the book of Revelation to supercede it, or even exist in harmony with it?
Did not Jesus Christ himself sent this one, 1900 or so years ago, AFTER his ascension, AFTER he appeared personally to Paul, and AFTER the first century church had run its course?
Does not this personal message from Jesus Christ supercedes Paul?s personal message from Christ? Did VPW get such a personal message from Christ?
Why does PFAL, like most schools of thought, seem to flat out ignore it, and ever explain it away as mere future?
(I do guess its better than flipping out over it like others do. You know what I mean?)
Each book in the Bible accomplishes exactly what it was designed to accomplish. Much like the Words of Christ.
We would not be able to make as much sense out of the Epistles without the Gospels. To assign a higher value (or treasure) to one or the other is a bit irrelevant. They were designed for different purposes. And yes revelation does change, that doesn't change my point.
Using the logic expressed by both you Mike and you def one could easily say that The Book of Acts should be valued (or treasured) above all others for the express reason that it has the ascension and pentecost detailed in it's pages. Imagine what the scriptures would be without Acts. No, this is not the issue. It's either all God's Word or none of it is. He had his purposes for laying it out the way he did.
The key with regard to the epistles is realizing that within those pages we know who we are in Christ, what we have been delivered from, where we are going, etc. It's not an issue of being more important, it's just a key section of the Word for the born again ones.
We can argue about whether the gospels are written to us, I guess. But no one can logically argue whether Paul's Epistles are written to us.
You wrote: ?I finally realized, that if one is gonna brag about writings that are to usher in the next administration, one should also be able to explain those now-obsolete writings that already claim to do the job.?
I?m doing the best I can. Remember, I?m a student too. I?m just passing on what I?ve learned and am learning, both of which are exciting adventures. I don?t think I?m required to have finished my mastery, before I can show that Dr wanted us all to master it. I?ve been working to master for 5 years now, so that does qualify me to share SOME few things that I have already learned.
****
As for the book of Revelation, one primary way I?d approach it is to read all the places in the written PFAL record where Dr teaches out of the book of Revelation.
I just did a quick statistical survey of the scripture index for Dr?s books. There are about 150 places where Dr quotes from this book.
The following chapters are well represented, meaning over three references: 1,2,3,4,5,8,9,11,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22.
Some of these chapters have way more than three references.
The following chapters are minimally represented:
6,7,10.
I didn?t do a magazine survey because that index seems to cover all authors, not just Dr. There were a total of about 120 references from 1976-85. I just don?t have the time to see how many were Dr?s.
The reason I want to see what Dr says about it is because for centuries thousands of different opinions have spewed forth about this book. I have no intention of adding my spit to that ocean. I have no reason to think my reading of the KJV is going to be any better an opinion than anybody else?s.
I choose to follow God?s lead and see how much a priority God put into directing our attention to John?s Revelation in the 40 year project He had with Dr. The insights God gave to Dr and Dr put into written form about this book are the only solid ground I recognize from which to view it. Winging it with the KJV I already did on a few occasions during the previous three decades, and now it?s in a low time attention priority mode for me.
Every now and then I run across one of those couple hundred times Dr ventures there. They can be electrifying!
*****
You wrote: ?Why would God and Jesus go through all the trouble of delivering this complex angelic message about 1900 years ago if none of it applies??
It can apply to a different group of people AND/OR it can apply to a different time.
*****
You wrote: ?Hasn?t PFAL got to jive with the book of Revelation to supercede it, or even exist in harmony with it??
We don?t know what the book says exactly, therefore we can?t judge the jive or no jive it has with PFAL. We don?t even know PFAL yet. Maybe after we obey God?s revelation and master PFAl we?ll be led into God?s understanding of John?s book of Revelation.
******
You wrote: ?Did not Jesus Christ himself sent this one, 1900 or so years ago, AFTER his ascension, AFTER he appeared personally to Paul, and AFTER the first century church had run its course??
From what I see, we need to identify with Jesus Christ himself. When we see Jesus Christ doing something in the future, we need to see US in there doing it with him, AS him, as we become him, as we adopt the mind of Christ in all its fullness.
****
You wrote: ?Does not this personal message from Jesus Christ supercedes Paul?s personal message from Christ??
You?re looking at chronology of when each piece is written to decide supercession, but the chronology of each piece?s application may be different than the chronology of its writing. Plus to WHOM it?s addressed may eliminate any need to compare chronological supercession.
****
You wrote: ?Did VPW get such a personal message from Christ??
In the introduction to JCNG he says that Jesus Christ appointed him a spokesman of God?s accurate Word.
****
You wrote: ?Why does PFAL, like most schools of thought, seem to flat out ignore it, and ever explain it away as mere future??
Like I pointed out up above, PFAL does not in fact flat out ignore it.
The reason it SEEMS to ignore it is because you?re really not looking at PFAL when you report your perception of flat-out-ignoredness. Instead, you?re looking at the TVT and thinking that it?s PFAL.
I?m pretty sure in one of Dr?s post ?82 tapes he mentions that the Book of Revelation will be much more clear when it?s really happening.
Are you saying your flat-out-ignoredness should have had supercession over your rounded-in-interestedness?
Mike,
If memory serves, what VP said of prophecy concerning future times (he was speaking of the times of the book of Revelation) was that the closer one gets to the time which the prophecy is about, the clearer the meaning becomes.
quote:When I see Dr put his name on an article of text, I see that NOT as him taking credit for it?s contents.
That's very nice Mike. Ignorant and wrong, but nice.
And one more time, there's a difference between teaching the same thing and plagiarism, but your conscience is so seared on this topic that it's not worth arguing any further.
I am thankful that the information was given in TWI but it would have taken little effort to insure that references were given to those who had already done much of the research.
VPW used the titles (masters, doctors degrees) he earned from academia. He should have been bound by the standards of education that gave him the titles. Namely referencing his sources. Argue all you want about the ThD but the Masters degrees were earned legitimately.
He could not have gotten a degree that high without being trained in the proper methods of writing professional books and documents.
Conscience is mental habit patterns without reference to the origin of the patterns. If the patterns are lined up according to God, then the conscience is godly. If the conscience is lined up according to the standards of this world, then a good searing may be in order.
I?m glad that Dr had the non-worldly wisdom to EXCLUDE references in his books. Here?s why. When I was a younger PFAL student, back in the 70?s, I?d have probably been more inclined to look up Dr?s references, thinking that I could learn more. Unfortunately, such a strategy would have brought to me all the error that these men had in their teachings.
Dr sheltered me as a young student from such dead end references, and many more students as well. Dr had, by God?s revelation, already extracted all the juice from these teachers he had so that we need not go through the arduous filtering process he had to go through to separate truth from error.
you think he did the right thing to shelter you and teach you while being wrong and corrupt.
he said the same crap to ex from what I read from her posts .
today ex deals with it as a strong , vital woman able to see right from wrong and love herself and others.
you mike refuse to realize how damaged was done(denial) and repeat the cycle of your abuser and justify the abuse done .
when a person is abused by another damage is done, the choices are to go into denial and repeat the same in your life constantly searching for a reason to make it ok... or to realize something evil has happened to you an innocent person , come to grips with it honestly , face it as a truth and live a life the best way you can in truth and recovery from the truama.
A great deal of abusers have been abused and we often wonder why they would indeed do the very same acts that caused them so much pain and torment in life . Because denial allows them to continue to enjoy the learned behaviour .
They have learned abuse is love. To break free you must acknowledge a great deal of pain and helplessness in a situation , you must recognize the one you may have loved the very most hurt you on purpose for their own selfish gain. Without a sense of self worth and support recovery is not possible . The behaviour must continue for you to continue your search for love and acceptence.
Mike I believe Ex can help you understand a way to a peaceful life , she is living with the pain of believing vpw to the point of abuse also , yet she can now see truth and lies clearly within her own life and still help and care about herself and others.
you need to break free from vpw spell on you and realize you are ok without him , you deserve so much better.. geez anyone does.
Ex
I apologize if I used your story in reference and you do not want me to, I am trying to express my pride and respect for all that you have accomplished by posting here on Gs and to show Mike the contrast in dealing with truth or not in his own life.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
sirguessalot
Mike,
Sorry. I am talking about his last teaching recorded in the KJV, after the ascension, given to and recorded by some John dude on an island.
Whether or not it was the last teaching appearance he has made since the first century is another subject, quite outside the bounds of your thread topic.
But the subject might make enlightening discussion. I'll leave that up to you.
;)-->
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Mike
Want to give me the exact verses you mean?
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sirguessalot
The whole book, Mike.
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Mike
Sure! But let's wait a bit until a block of free time, say a few months unscheduled with responsibilities, rolls it's way by us.
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Mike
Speakin of sponsibilities, I gotta go do some things. Bye for now.
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sirguessalot
Ok, I?ll write while yer gone to save time.
---
I finally realized, that if one is gonna brag about writings that are to usher in the next administration, one should also be able to explain those now-obsolete writings that already claim to do the job.
Master 5 senses before spiritual revelation, and all that.
;)-->
But I?ll keep this short, seeing as how you are limited on time. I hope you see how it pertains to your thread.
---
Towards the end of the first century, John writes that Jesus Christ himself sent him a spiritual message (angel).
Yes, this would make it the last recorded teaching of Jesus Christ in the KJV. (Although I doubt it is the last thing he has ever taught or done since. Thief in the night, blessings beyond Israel, and all that.)
The book is written with the strongest style of symbolism and figures of speech.
Remember how important those are? God uses them to emphasize a point, right? These points must be big then.
John is describing images (And I recall that Ezekial studied the shapes of his vision for a full month before he got the words for it).
And heerz an important biblical research principle at work somehow:
?The time is at hand,? is a condition set forth by John in the third verse of the whole book.
To John, that must mean "now," right?
Then, the revelation expresses the condition of and wisdom for the seven churches in Christ?s hand.
7 churches in HIS hand? Not just 1 church?
Then, the book expresses a heavenly view of Christ?s ascension. Looking backward in time, I guess. And there?s a real pantheon of critters present. Elders (not angels)? Beasts at the foot of the throne? I swear, one must represent a monkey or something (a beast with a face like a man?).
:P-->
Then there is a NEW song sung in heaven.
Then some never-before broken seals are broken immediately after the ascension.
So, we might assume that they have been broken ever since? Or has the universe frozen on REV 6:1 for 2k years?
Anyway, it goes on and on with signs, seasons, days and years.
Bowls, Trumpets, beasts, ten-headed dragons, spirits likes frogs, virgins, whores, miracles, floods, bizaare locusts, and social, political, environmental changes, etc?
A treasure of fun symbolism to track down and ponder.
Great applications for life.
Great historical insight.
---
But...
Why would God and Jesus go through all the trouble of delivering this complex angelic message about 1900 years ago if none of it applies?
Hasn?t PFAL got to jive with the book of Revelation to supercede it, or even exist in harmony with it?
Did not Jesus Christ himself sent this one, 1900 or so years ago, AFTER his ascension, AFTER he appeared personally to Paul, and AFTER the first century church had run its course?
Does not this personal message from Jesus Christ supercedes Paul?s personal message from Christ? Did VPW get such a personal message from Christ?
Why does PFAL, like most schools of thought, seem to flat out ignore it, and ever explain it away as mere future?
(I do guess its better than flipping out over it like others do. You know what I mean?)
Todd
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dizzydog
Each book in the Bible accomplishes exactly what it was designed to accomplish. Much like the Words of Christ.
We would not be able to make as much sense out of the Epistles without the Gospels. To assign a higher value (or treasure) to one or the other is a bit irrelevant. They were designed for different purposes. And yes revelation does change, that doesn't change my point.
Using the logic expressed by both you Mike and you def one could easily say that The Book of Acts should be valued (or treasured) above all others for the express reason that it has the ascension and pentecost detailed in it's pages. Imagine what the scriptures would be without Acts. No, this is not the issue. It's either all God's Word or none of it is. He had his purposes for laying it out the way he did.
The key with regard to the epistles is realizing that within those pages we know who we are in Christ, what we have been delivered from, where we are going, etc. It's not an issue of being more important, it's just a key section of the Word for the born again ones.
We can argue about whether the gospels are written to us, I guess. But no one can logically argue whether Paul's Epistles are written to us.
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sirguessalot
Why not?
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Mike
sirguessalot,
You wrote: ?I finally realized, that if one is gonna brag about writings that are to usher in the next administration, one should also be able to explain those now-obsolete writings that already claim to do the job.?
I?m doing the best I can. Remember, I?m a student too. I?m just passing on what I?ve learned and am learning, both of which are exciting adventures. I don?t think I?m required to have finished my mastery, before I can show that Dr wanted us all to master it. I?ve been working to master for 5 years now, so that does qualify me to share SOME few things that I have already learned.
****
As for the book of Revelation, one primary way I?d approach it is to read all the places in the written PFAL record where Dr teaches out of the book of Revelation.
I just did a quick statistical survey of the scripture index for Dr?s books. There are about 150 places where Dr quotes from this book.
The following chapters are well represented, meaning over three references: 1,2,3,4,5,8,9,11,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22.
Some of these chapters have way more than three references.
The following chapters are minimally represented:
6,7,10.
I didn?t do a magazine survey because that index seems to cover all authors, not just Dr. There were a total of about 120 references from 1976-85. I just don?t have the time to see how many were Dr?s.
The reason I want to see what Dr says about it is because for centuries thousands of different opinions have spewed forth about this book. I have no intention of adding my spit to that ocean. I have no reason to think my reading of the KJV is going to be any better an opinion than anybody else?s.
I choose to follow God?s lead and see how much a priority God put into directing our attention to John?s Revelation in the 40 year project He had with Dr. The insights God gave to Dr and Dr put into written form about this book are the only solid ground I recognize from which to view it. Winging it with the KJV I already did on a few occasions during the previous three decades, and now it?s in a low time attention priority mode for me.
Every now and then I run across one of those couple hundred times Dr ventures there. They can be electrifying!
*****
You wrote: ?Why would God and Jesus go through all the trouble of delivering this complex angelic message about 1900 years ago if none of it applies??
It can apply to a different group of people AND/OR it can apply to a different time.
*****
You wrote: ?Hasn?t PFAL got to jive with the book of Revelation to supercede it, or even exist in harmony with it??
We don?t know what the book says exactly, therefore we can?t judge the jive or no jive it has with PFAL. We don?t even know PFAL yet. Maybe after we obey God?s revelation and master PFAl we?ll be led into God?s understanding of John?s book of Revelation.
******
You wrote: ?Did not Jesus Christ himself sent this one, 1900 or so years ago, AFTER his ascension, AFTER he appeared personally to Paul, and AFTER the first century church had run its course??
From what I see, we need to identify with Jesus Christ himself. When we see Jesus Christ doing something in the future, we need to see US in there doing it with him, AS him, as we become him, as we adopt the mind of Christ in all its fullness.
****
You wrote: ?Does not this personal message from Jesus Christ supercedes Paul?s personal message from Christ??
You?re looking at chronology of when each piece is written to decide supercession, but the chronology of each piece?s application may be different than the chronology of its writing. Plus to WHOM it?s addressed may eliminate any need to compare chronological supercession.
****
You wrote: ?Did VPW get such a personal message from Christ??
In the introduction to JCNG he says that Jesus Christ appointed him a spokesman of God?s accurate Word.
****
You wrote: ?Why does PFAL, like most schools of thought, seem to flat out ignore it, and ever explain it away as mere future??
Like I pointed out up above, PFAL does not in fact flat out ignore it.
The reason it SEEMS to ignore it is because you?re really not looking at PFAL when you report your perception of flat-out-ignoredness. Instead, you?re looking at the TVT and thinking that it?s PFAL.
I?m pretty sure in one of Dr?s post ?82 tapes he mentions that the Book of Revelation will be much more clear when it?s really happening.
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sirguessalot
Mike, you are astonishing.
I almost regret posting anything to you.
Sorry
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Tom
Sirg,
Are you saying your flat-out-ignoredness should have had supercession over your rounded-in-interestedness?
Mike,
If memory serves, what VP said of prophecy concerning future times (he was speaking of the times of the book of Revelation) was that the closer one gets to the time which the prophecy is about, the clearer the meaning becomes.
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sirguessalot
I'm not sure.
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dizzydog
"Why not?"
Pardon me, I forgot where I am for a moment.
This is GS, EVERYTHING gets argued about.
And Mike you think we can become likeminded BEFORE Christs return? yeah right...
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Raf
That's very nice Mike. Ignorant and wrong, but nice.
And one more time, there's a difference between teaching the same thing and plagiarism, but your conscience is so seared on this topic that it's not worth arguing any further.
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dizzydog
I have to agree with Rafael on this.
I am thankful that the information was given in TWI but it would have taken little effort to insure that references were given to those who had already done much of the research.
VPW used the titles (masters, doctors degrees) he earned from academia. He should have been bound by the standards of education that gave him the titles. Namely referencing his sources. Argue all you want about the ThD but the Masters degrees were earned legitimately.
He could not have gotten a degree that high without being trained in the proper methods of writing professional books and documents.
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WordWolf
I mentioned that once.
I said to graduate from even a lukewarm college,
you'd need to fill your degree requirements,
including the major. a major in theology would
require proper citation and crediting WHILE
teaching the proper way to research and get the
information FROM said sources.
This becomes reinforced going for your Masters,
all the time.
But, as Rafael pointed out...
Mike's "conscience is so seared on this topic
that it's not worth arguing any further."
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Tom Strange
I find it interesting that neither Raffy nor Mike need a holy grail... (the voices say they really liked that movie)
just exactly what is the meaning of that!?!
... big hitter, the lama...
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Mike
Conscience is mental habit patterns without reference to the origin of the patterns. If the patterns are lined up according to God, then the conscience is godly. If the conscience is lined up according to the standards of this world, then a good searing may be in order.
I?m glad that Dr had the non-worldly wisdom to EXCLUDE references in his books. Here?s why. When I was a younger PFAL student, back in the 70?s, I?d have probably been more inclined to look up Dr?s references, thinking that I could learn more. Unfortunately, such a strategy would have brought to me all the error that these men had in their teachings.
Dr sheltered me as a young student from such dead end references, and many more students as well. Dr had, by God?s revelation, already extracted all the juice from these teachers he had so that we need not go through the arduous filtering process he had to go through to separate truth from error.
I think he did the right thing.
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Raf
I rest my case.
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WordWolf
Gee, you never looked up the books he DID cite
when he cited them,
but you would have looked up the ones he DID
cite? What are the odds?
Very few probably would have bothered to look
them up, rather than, say, keep reading vpw's
books as a new student.
Perhaps some would as they progressed-
Advanced Class grads and so on.
============================================
Yes, thank God we never had to separate truth
from error in reading any books as students
while in twi.
*rolls eyes*
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mj412
you think he did the right thing to shelter you and teach you while being wrong and corrupt.
he said the same crap to ex from what I read from her posts .
today ex deals with it as a strong , vital woman able to see right from wrong and love herself and others.
you mike refuse to realize how damaged was done(denial) and repeat the cycle of your abuser and justify the abuse done .
when a person is abused by another damage is done, the choices are to go into denial and repeat the same in your life constantly searching for a reason to make it ok... or to realize something evil has happened to you an innocent person , come to grips with it honestly , face it as a truth and live a life the best way you can in truth and recovery from the truama.
A great deal of abusers have been abused and we often wonder why they would indeed do the very same acts that caused them so much pain and torment in life . Because denial allows them to continue to enjoy the learned behaviour .
They have learned abuse is love. To break free you must acknowledge a great deal of pain and helplessness in a situation , you must recognize the one you may have loved the very most hurt you on purpose for their own selfish gain. Without a sense of self worth and support recovery is not possible . The behaviour must continue for you to continue your search for love and acceptence.
Mike I believe Ex can help you understand a way to a peaceful life , she is living with the pain of believing vpw to the point of abuse also , yet she can now see truth and lies clearly within her own life and still help and care about herself and others.
you need to break free from vpw spell on you and realize you are ok without him , you deserve so much better.. geez anyone does.
Ex
I apologize if I used your story in reference and you do not want me to, I am trying to express my pride and respect for all that you have accomplished by posting here on Gs and to show Mike the contrast in dealing with truth or not in his own life.
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shazdancer
Hahahahohoheehee,stop it, Mike, you're cracking me up again!
:D-->
I'm sure VP neglected to cite his sources on purpose just to protect people like you...uh huh, right.
The longer you talk, Mike, the deeper the hole you dig...
Shaz
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Tom Strange
Shaz...
I am the walrus
... big hitter, the lama...
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Mike
.
.
.
ku ku ka chu
.
.
.
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